Malaysian Airlines flight carrying 295 people has been shot down in Ukraine

[Deleted]

Recap of Boroday conference on 20th July:

Thank you for the translation.

Says OSCE are working on site for third day straight despite claims from Western press, and they (OSCE) were annoyed by press being allowed there

OSCE hasn't been "working" there for three days. First day was spent negotiating access before they were told to turn around and warning shots were fired. Second day they were allowed to look around for 3 hours, but their access was still restricted. Western press claimed are supported by OSCE claims, so he's distorting the truth.

Says Ukrainians are likely the ones delaying experts so that truth will not come out

Some experts (at least British ones) have been in Kiev since Saturday waiting for separatists to allow access. Blatant lie.

Says they finally got their Strela-10 trophy complexes working; still no BUKs.

Missile system crossed back into Russia on Friday, so I guess he's not technically lying - they don't have it anymore.

Says that today one sector in that huge area was under Ukrainian machinegun fire; as he cares for expert safety he cannot allow them to come into harms way there.

Magically, the salvage workers, miners, and journalists milling around there today were not affected by the machine-gun fire. No one else reported it, so potential lie there.

Says local witnesses claim plane to be shot down by Ukrainian fighter jet, but he cannot think about their testimony as reliable; experts should determine what exactly happened, their only problem is that experts are not going there, thinks it's probably due to Kiev feeding them various scare stories about rebels... While 3 Days OSCE observers are working there and nothing happened to them.

Local witnesses can identify planes at 33,000 ft? You don't say. Experts aren't going there because the separatists haven't allowed them. Yes, nothing happened to the OSCE observers other than the warning shots. But why fire warning shots at civilians in the first place?

On one hand, he lies about a lot of things. On the other, he lies less and less egregiously than Russian media, so maybe when Putin is done with him, he could train the next batch the Kremlin bots.

[Shalcker]

I doubt Ukranians see separatists backed up by a foreign power as "Their own people"

They write out anyone who disagrees with them as "Putin Agent" and think nothing about killing them, that much seems to be clear.

Some of rebels were not and still aren't for separation and would be satisfied with federalization; but thugs in Kiev are non-negotiable.

[MerinPally]

He replied to me with this after I provided links to Russian military firing shots during the annexation of Crimea.

Right but he doesn't say that an annexation was peaceful. If you go check the last page you'll see Slacker quite clearly posted that the annexation was peaceful, so I think you might be mixing things.

Yes, but none of that in any way implies what people here have been saying which is that OSCE is supposed to give a green light for others to come in.
As far as breaking goes, that's a bit of a strong word, wouldn't you say? Yes, "very limited" access the first day. That's not a "point of no return" "they broke it, they're done for!" kind of thing, however. The next day, it was better, today, it was great, according to OSCE. "A very significant development" in their own words.

Their lives were never under threat from the rebels, as far as point 3 goes. The warning shots do not constitute a threat, but just that, a warning. Shalcker also said that was apparently for journalists which makes sense. Considering that OSCE was happy today that the journalists were kept at bay, I'd say that only confirms it, although I won't claim it with 100% certainty.

Point 2 - remains to be seen, since there's only OSCE there at the moment.

I would forget about ever bringing up the 4th point because Poroshenko officially refused ceasefire talks which everyone, including the rebels asked for. You have to remember that the armed conflict between Ukraine and the rebels is still going on. That's a lot they've got on their plate.

OSCE is there to make things safe. People aren't going to send in experts until it's safe. That's pretty obvious no? OSCE wasn't allowed to do that, because the rebels broke the agreement. I wouldn't say that it's too strong, they either broke the agreement or they didn't. It was worded pretty clearly. It doesn't matter particularly that it's getting better, they already stopped them - and I ask why? I've asked Slacker for 80 pages and I'm no closer to an answer. Any rational mind would say that they have something to hide, which means they tampered with the evidence which was another agreement that OSCE made with them - and as of today, it has been confirmed that things have been moved and tampered with, despite very clear instructions which boil down to "don't touch anything".

Whilst you now can say their lives weren't under threat, would you not worry? You're talking to a group of people who are suspects. They fire warning shots, are drunk and aggressive. That's not safety, that's really quite worrying. Point 4 doesn't specify ceasefire necessarily, it says any questions. The rebels have been secretive and obstructive and that's a fact, so even if Ukraine is saying no to negotiations, it doesn't matter because the rebels are not in a position to argue otherwise. They agreed to cooperate, and if they choose not to then they are breaking it.

[Ulmita]

So, I ask you nicely: please get out of this thread. Many people died, and your attempt to use it to promote your motherland (Italy, huh? You are not kidding anyone) has already failed and will only fail even further, since you clearly demonstrate that Russians do not care about lives and cannot have a civil discussion.

And who are you exactly to ask me to get out of the thread exactly? How about you take your toxic friends and leave this thread alone? Apparently you cant handle conversation. Furthermore, we can hit any vent you like, to hear that i am not Russian nor i have Slavic blood in my veins what-so-ever.

Also, for another time if the moderation would be kind enough to review the following person's hate, insulting and toxic messages. Thanks!

[May90]

Some of rebels were not and still aren't for separation and would be satisfied with federalization; but thugs in Kiev are non-negotiable.

I remember how you were negotiable when your people started getting killed in Chechnya - but when it happens in Ukraine, you call them "thugs"? Nice double standards you got here buddy.

And who are you exactly to ask me to get out of the thread exactly? How about you take your toxic friends and leave this thread alone? Apparently you cant handle conversation.

I can't handle people who dismiss all sources acclaimed all over the world and then put some Youtube videos and claim that they prove their point of view. As such, I ask you to leave because you do not contribute in this thread, you only make it seem humorous which it is not.

[MerinPally]

This is exactly my point of view. Why would Russia or the Rebels shot down a civilian airplane while they have practically the WHOLE planet against them?
Wouldn't it make more sense if Ukraine did it and try to frame the rebels to gain even more international support? Isn't this the common sense?

Again as i said 1000 times before, the party responsible behind this atrocity needs to be brought to justice.

Noone is saying Russia did it for the millionth fucking time. No, it doesn't make more sense for Ukraine to shoot it down. The most likely situation is whoever did shoot it, completely cocked up and accidentally hit the wrong target. That makes more sense than any of the 3 likely suspects shooting down a passenger plane, noone gains anything from that.

[Gangresnake]

They write out anyone who disagrees with them as "Putin Agent" and think nothing about killing them, that much seems to be clear.

Some of rebels were not and still aren't for separation and would be satisfied with federalization; but thugs in Kiev are non-negotiable.

The term is a bit strong but in the end it make sense, undermining the territorial integrity of your own country in exchange for foreign support make you a foreign agent.

If Crimea didnt happen, if Russia wasnt backing up the rebels, federalization could be possible. Right now it's simply not.

[May90]

Noone is saying Russia did it for the millionth fucking time.

Actually, seeing how Russians here act so defensive... Maybe indeed they did it? Otherwise they wouldn't feel such need to defend Russia from accusations that don't even exist yet.
Who knows...

You know, there was an anecdote in Russia popular in the middle of 2000-s:

White house. Phone rings.
- Hello, George Bush listening.
- Hi George, it is Vladimir Putin. I want to express my sincere condolences in the terrorist attacks your country had today...
- Er... What attacks?
- You know, two skyscrapers? The planes?
- What?
- Wait, what day is it?
- It is September 10th.
- Shit... Sorry, wrong number.

[Yoshimitsu84]

Actually, seeing how Russians here act so defensive... Maybe indeed they did it? Otherwise they wouldn't feel such need to defend Russia from accusations that don't even exist yet.
Who knows...

because you can come to that conclusion by the forum posters here.
As if the forum posters did it.
Try again

You are just being provocative for no reason.

[Ninepenny]

OSCE is there to make things safe. People aren't going to send in experts until it's safe. That's pretty obvious no? OSCE wasn't allowed to do that, because the rebels broke the agreement. I wouldn't say that it's too strong, they either broke the agreement or they didn't. It was worded pretty clearly. It doesn't matter particularly that it's getting better, they already stopped them - and I ask why? I've asked Slacker for 80 pages and I'm no closer to an answer. Any rational mind would say that they have something to hide, which means they tampered with the evidence which was another agreement that OSCE made with them - and as of today, it has been confirmed that things have been moved and tampered with, despite very clear instructions which boil down to "don't touch anything".

Whilst you now can say their lives weren't under threat, would you not worry? You're talking to a group of people who are suspects. They fire warning shots, are drunk and aggressive. That's not safety, that's really quite worrying. Point 4 doesn't specify ceasefire necessarily, it says any questions. The rebels have been secretive and obstructive and that's a fact, so even if Ukraine is saying no to negotiations, it doesn't matter because the rebels are not in a position to argue otherwise. They agreed to cooperate, and if they choose not to then they are breaking it.

It's safe as it can ever be. They have local children running around the area looking for bodies, damn it.

Stop trying to put the blame for ICAO's delay on the militants.

[Ulmita]

I remember how you were negotiable when your people started getting killed in Chechnya - but when it happens in Ukraine, you call them "thugs"? Nice double standards you got here buddy.


I can't handle people who dismiss all sources acclaimed all over the world and then put some Youtube videos and claim that they prove their point of view. As such, I ask you to leave because you do not contribute in this thread, you only make it seem humorous which it is not.

You are trying to manipulate things your way, but its pretty obvious you fail at it.

You linked bbc, and i told you why link bbc bs which from eastern countries is view just fox (a propaganda stronghold) WHILE THERE IS OSCE website.

That's a different case from viewing a video from people that where actually getting bombed at that time. How could even OSCE be there at that time?
True or not it makes it the only evidence that people have available to see AND DRAW THEIR OWN RESULTS.

Having said that the only thing you contribute to this conversation is hateful, insulting, vulgar and toxic replies. Even if you don't agree on what someone sais you don't reply like that, child. But i guess one day you will grow up (hopefully) and be able to have a conversation. Until then i really hope the moderatators review your hateful, and insulting replies to a variety of other people (not just me) and take action to your account.

There is nothing else i will ever reply to you, since you are a complete waste of energy to even type.

[Shalcker]

OSCE hasn't been "working" there for three days. First day was spent negotiating access before they were told to turn around and warning shots were fired. Second day they were allowed to look around for 3 hours, but their access was still restricted. Western press claimed are supported by OSCE claims, so he's distorting the truth.

Please, i think it wasn't even five pages since last OSCE interview was linked. Did you watch it? Please do before you comment on Boroday, as they are talking about same day while Western media often talks about previous days.

Some experts (at least British ones) have been in Kiev since Saturday waiting for separatists to allow access. Blatant lie.

Who said separatists are not allowing anyone? Kiev? Did they try to contact separatists directly? It looks like Malaysian guys did and they are the only ones going there by his account.

I have also watched his 18th and 19th press-conferences and he always said the same thing - he waits for experts, they will be given all accommodations and as much protection as he can.

Missile system crossed back into Russia on Friday, so I guess he's not technically lying - they don't have it anymore.

Or it belonged to Lugansk and not Donetsk, as it supposedly moved "back to Russia" through Lugansk. Or it might not have existed at all, it requires pretty huge transport platform and should be easily seen by satellites, and US so far did not provided any photos.

Magically, the salvage workers, miners, and journalists milling around there today were not affected by the machine-gun fire. No one else reported it, so potential lie there.

It's 25 square kilometers... machinegun fire could be observed at night too, and they were blocking that sector as precaution.

Local witnesses can identify planes at 33,000 ft? You don't say.

He SAYS you shouldn't trust them; he surely doesn't.

Experts aren't going there because the separatists haven't allowed them. Yes, nothing happened to the OSCE observers other than the warning shots. But why fire warning shots at civilians in the first place?

Because they have to guard the area, why else? They could just as easily not allow ANYONE there.

[Notchris]

I am here.

Nah, wrong Italian.

The one I'm speaking of is serving yet another ban.

[May90]

because you can come to that conclusion by the forum posters here.
As if the forum posters did it.
Try again

You are just being provocative for no reason.

Me? You guys do so well on your own that I cannot even discredit you any more. Just keep going, and soon everyone will have no doubt that you shot down the plane yourselves!

There is nothing else i will ever reply to you, since you are a complete waste of energy to even type.

Good. Now, if you would be so kind as to do the same with regards to other posters here, we might just finally have some meaningful conversation here.

[Ulmita]

In Today's News: Conversation Putin and Cameron

Russia's President Vladimir Putin said it is important to refrain from making any hasty conclusions and politicized statements before the end of the investigation of the Malaysian Airlines plane crash.

“The prime cause of this tragedy is the armed confrontation in Ukraine, including in the region of the plane crash,” he said in a phone conversation with British Prime Minister David Cameron, according to the Kremlin press-service.

Russia is ready to provide necessary assistance in organizing and carrying out a thorough international inquiry led by ICAO, Putin said.

On Tuesday there will be apparently more sanctions coming for Russia.


Again for me it feels very convenient the downing of a civilian aircraft this specific time. Europe did not want more sanctions vs Russia. White house wanted, and all of the sudden a civilian aircraft goes down. Let's hope to find who was behind the attack fast.

[Creotor]

Right but he doesn't say that an annexation was peaceful. If you go check the last page you'll see Slacker quite clearly posted that the annexation was peaceful, so I think you might be mixing things.

Well, I do say, that as a military operation, that was exceptionally smooth and peaceful. Then again, that was only possible because the majority of the population there did support it. Obviously, it's not peaceful when compared to a scenario like Czechoslovakia, but the population did not suffer, is what I'm saying.

OSCE is there to make things safe. People aren't going to send in experts until it's safe. That's pretty obvious no? OSCE wasn't allowed to do that, because the rebels broke the agreement.

Again, I'm not seeing much of a link between OSCE and other groups. Sorry. I can understand others not wanting to come over until they see OSCE being treated well there, but how much can they actually expect from a war zone protected by people on one side of that war? I'd say it's not reasonable for them to expect it to go completely smoothly.

I wouldn't say that it's too strong, they either broke the agreement or they didn't. It was worded pretty clearly. It doesn't matter particularly that it's getting better, they already stopped them - and I ask why? I've asked Slacker for 80 pages and I'm no closer to an answer. Any rational mind would say that they have something to hide, which means they tampered with the evidence which was another agreement that OSCE made with them - and as of today, it has been confirmed that things have been moved and tampered with, despite very clear instructions which boil down to "don't touch anything".

I do not know why they weren't given better access on the first day. However, again, due to them participating in a conflict with Ukrainians, there could be something else to it other than them trying to hide something from the rest of the world. Like I said yesterday, what could they really do there? I can't think of any way where they could change so much of the entire site where it would actually hide some truth. I, personally, don't think much will be found out about who shot the plane there either way.
As far as moving bodies, IMO, that should have been done ASAP as is. Rummaging through the wreckage could be explained by searching for bodies and black boxes which the rebels clearly don't wish to entrust to Ukrainians. I know almost no one here is ready to do that for the rebels either, but it's their ball there, currently.

Whilst you now can say their lives weren't under threat, would you not worry? You're talking to a group of people who are suspects. They fire warning shots, are drunk and aggressive. That's not safety, that's really quite worrying. Point 4 doesn't specify ceasefire necessarily, it says any questions. The rebels have been secretive and obstructive and that's a fact, so even if Ukraine is saying no to negotiations, it doesn't matter because the rebels are not in a position to argue otherwise. They agreed to cooperate, and if they choose not to then they are breaking it.

They are suspects, but that's the only option available, short of military intervention which would just make it much worse and bring it to a whole different level.
Definitely not super safe, but how can it be, in such a situation? Either way, no one got shot (so far). No one was assaulted or threatened, beyond the warning shots. I do not agree that since they've agreed to all of the above, even light deviations discredit them to the degree that again, most people here seem to think it should. It's not black and white.

[Puupi]

Nah, wrong Italian.

The one I'm speaking of is serving yet another ban.

I hope it's a long one. The last thing this thread needs is that dipshit.

http://www.aamulehti.fi/Ulkomaat/119...ilmatilaa.html

Some Finnish news about the no-flight restrictions Ukraine has been changing lately and the reasoning behind it.

Infracted

[Deleted]

Right but he doesn't say that an annexation was peaceful. If you go check the last page you'll see Slacker quite clearly posted that the annexation was peaceful, so I think you might be mixing things.

He did, and he just said it again at the top of this page.

[fableman]

In Today's News: Conversation Putin and Cameron



On Tuesday there will be apparently more sanctions coming for Russia.


Again for me it feels very convenient the downing of a civilian aircraft this specific time. Europe did not want more sanctions vs Russia. White house wanted, and all of the sudden a civilian aircraft goes down. Let's hope to find who was behind the attack fast.

Good point.

On the other hand Ukraine might've been interested in downing the airplane as well to put all the blame on the opposition and Russia, which would potentially lead to a NATO military intervention. And to be perfectly honest that's what Poroshenko direly desires all the time as that would allow for US to openly enter the country and deal with any resistance.

[Gurluas]

Until there is proof that Russia is controlling the rebels, it's idiotic to demand that Russia makes the rebels stand down, they should instead demand that the rebels stand down.

Besides...I still support self-determination. The majority of Crimea's population for instance, WANTED to be Russian, and the island was Russian for centuries until Nikita just gave it to Ukraine in the fifties randomly. Land and cultures and people should not be split up and handed over nilly willy, and then blocking any chance of them leaving by saying they can't leave in a constitution they had no part in drafting.

It's a crime and it has led to SO many conflicts, this is especially evident in Africa, where people are still blowing each other up due to the artificial territorial borders.

And yes...Honestly, I fear that in 40 years or so, we'll find out the CIA and Ukraine were behind the plane crashing.
This has been a very common trend with the US. They bring up circumstantial evidence, makes claim about it, and do whatever they want to destabilize or destroy countries when it suits their needs.

A good example being Afghanistan, or Chile.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of Russia, and I find Putin's policies to be very horrible.
But I am looking at this objectively and neutrally, and things do not add up.