4 raiding difficulties

[gamingmuscle]

Not saying it CAUSED bleeding, I am saying as opposed to what HE is saying LFR didn't save anything at all.

You can't claim that.

Cause you and do not know that LFR didn't slow the bleeding IE saving subs that would have otherwise churned.

[Mahourai]

Yeah, I mean it is more likely that Mike Morhaime was hinting that there was a loss of 600k in between the two quarters where they announced 12million subscribers and not at all referring to the quarters where they reported 11.5million subscribers.

The idea that subs at the end of the year of Icecrown never declined, and that Cataclysm's launch did not provide any post-release bounce, obviously does not pass the smell test. Subs did not remain flat - churn exists.

But perhaps most importantly they never said what you claim, what was reported was "As of March subscribership returned to pre-Cataclysm - launch levels in the West

You're correct. Of course, players outside the West do not actually subscribe to WoW, but then again he goes on to talk about "worldwide subscribers"...

In any case, the thrust of my point - which is that subs leveled out at the end of Burning Crusade at 11.5 million until the Tier 11 11.4 million figure. Saying that Cataclysm lost half a million subs is to ignore the context of the previous 4 years of subscriber numbers - most of the "lost" subs were just failed retentions from the launch period to go back down to the plateau the game had been at for years.

[gamingmuscle]

They are identical for Activision-Blizzard.

Yeah didn't look into it, I just remembered they could be different.

[Arbs]

There is only 3 Raiding Difficulties (Normal, Heroic & Mythic), Blizzard is no longer considering LFR a Raid Difficulty.

Here is the Blog that evens mentions it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/139...oday-4-29-2014
Last Paragraph, it says exactly this.

We’re tremendously happy with how players have received the new Flexible Raid mode, and we wish we’d implemented something like this sooner. We’re now back to three tiers of difficulty that cover all of the different kinds of organized raiders, while preserving Raid Finder for those who just want to experience the content on their own schedule.

[Pann]

The idea that subs at the end of the year of Icecrown never declined, and that Cataclysm's launch did not provide any post-release bounce, obviously does not pass the smell test. Subs did not remain flat - churn exists.

Yes but that does not prove your point. There is strong evidence to suggest that the West declined whilst China gained subs from the release of Wrath but the fact remains that ATVI reported subs as 12million in both Q3 and Q4.

You're correct. Of course, players outside the West do not actually subscribe to WoW, but then again he goes on to talk about "worldwide subscribers"...

In any case, the thrust of my point - which is that subs leveled out at the end of Burning Crusade at 11.5 million until the Tier 11 11.4 million figure. Saying that Cataclysm lost half a million subs is to ignore the context of the previous 4 years of subscriber numbers - most of the "lost" subs were just failed retentions from the launch period to go back down to the plateau the game had been at for years.

In every single quarterly report ATVI explain their definition of a subscriber and they most certainly include Chinese players.

Subs could not possibly have levelled out during this period as WOW China was offline for a number of months whilst the license was transferred to Netease from the9. But it slightly ironic you would suggest that subs were stable for years but were not for two quarters because of subscriber churn.

[Count Zero]

There is only 3 Raiding Difficulties (Normal, Heroic & Mythic), Blizzard is no longer considering LFR a Raid Difficulty.

Here is the Blog that evens mentions it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/139...oday-4-29-2014
Last Paragraph, it says exactly this.

We’re tremendously happy with how players have received the new Flexible Raid mode, and we wish we’d implemented something like this sooner. We’re now back to three tiers of difficulty that cover all of the different kinds of organized raiders, while preserving Raid Finder for those who just want to experience the content on their own schedule.

They don't consider LFR organized raiding. Show me where they don't consider it raiding at all.

[Mahourai]

Subs could not possibly have levelled out during this period as WOW China was offline for a number of months whilst the license was transferred to Netease from the9. But it slightly ironic you would suggest that subs were stable for years but were not for two quarters because of subscriber churn.

I'm not suggesting that subs were or were not "unstable". I'm suggesting that the period of decline didn't really begin until subs began falling off the 11.5-12 figure in earnest. Fluctuations from 11.5 to 12 and back down again aren't a decline.

[Pann]

I'm not suggesting that subs were or were not "unstable". I'm suggesting that the period of decline didn't really begin until subs began falling off the 11.5-12 figure in earnest. Fluctuations from 11.5 to 12 and back down again aren't a decline.

We know exactly when subs started to fall Blizzard told us.

[Arbs]

They don't consider LFR organized raiding. Show me where they don't consider it raiding at all.

Ya Organized raiding are the 3 Raid Difficulties, LFR is just its own thing now.

[Count Zero]

Ya Organized raiding are the 3 Raid Difficulties, LFR is just its own thing now.

Again, I'd still like to see something about them saying that only organized raiding is raiding. Until then, LFR is pick up raiding, and normal/heroic/mythic are organized raiding.

[Seefer]

Again, I'd still like to see something about them saying that only organized raiding is raiding. Until then, LFR is pick up raiding, and normal/heroic/mythic are organized raiding.

Pick up raiding is grabbing people from trade or friends list and doing a raid, like used to be done in WOTLK..........not some half assed glorified 5 man where you can ignore mechanics and do subpar dps and still get loot.

[MoanaLisa]

There is only 3 Raiding Difficulties (Normal, Heroic & Mythic), Blizzard is no longer considering LFR a Raid Difficulty.

Here is the Blog that evens mentions it: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/139...oday-4-29-2014
Last Paragraph, it says exactly this.

We’re tremendously happy with how players have received the new Flexible Raid mode, and we wish we’d implemented something like this sooner. We’re now back to three tiers of difficulty that cover all of the different kinds of organized raiders, while preserving Raid Finder for those who just want to experience the content on their own schedule.

You should have read part 3 then. This is false and easily shown to be so in the third part of Watcher's Dev Watercooler on raiding from the end of April.

The graphic near the opening shows the proposed raid structure and yes, Raid Finder is there.

And then there's this:

Raid Finder still has an important place within the new Warlords raid structure. Many players cannot or simply do not want to commit to a fixed group. And no matter how convenient we make organized raiding through Group Finder, it’ll never be something you can jump in and do for 45 minutes during your downtime on a busy day, the way you might do a Raid Finder wing.

So let's move on now that we are 100% certain that the lead designer on the raid team thought enough of Raid Finder to include it as raiding but also wrote several paragraphs about it and a separate section for it.

That should settle this part of the discussion. Blizzard considers it raiding. People are perfectly free to say they personally don't consider it to be so. They are not free to say that Blizzard agrees with them. Feel free to review the blog post at the link should there be any further confusion.

[Nyothe]

I cant remember if they said anything about lockouts. Which difficulties share them? Norm/Hero as being flex, and mythic? Or will they split mythic to its own? Or even all three of them seperate?

[Osmeric]

I cant remember if they said anything about lockouts. Which difficulties share them? Norm/Hero as being flex, and mythic? Or will they split mythic to its own? Or even all three of them seperate?

All modes will have separate lockouts.

[HeedmySpeed]

All modes will have separate lockouts.

Fucking. Stupid.

They tried making LFR irrelevant to raiders and instead replace it with Flex mode.

Sigh...
I suppose it's better than LFR but still one of those awkward conversations with your GM saying you don't want to pick up easy upgrades.

[Sansnom]

Pick up raiding is grabbing people from trade or friends list and doing a raid, like used to be done in WOTLK..........not some half assed glorified 5 man where you can ignore mechanics and do subpar dps and still get loot.

I find it ironic that players who ignore mechanic, or "Just zerg it" are the players who do normal and heroic raids and complain the most when they are doing the majority of the DPS.

Of course you will find people doing "sub-par" DPS in LFR. Why? Because they are part of the intended audience. Not the normal/heroic mode raiders. You are in their playground. You have your raid difficulty, they have theirs. Blizzard should have made LFR share the same loot lockout as with the other modes.

[Belloc]

No, it isn't. Blizzard also says "We feel that X Class is in a good place right now" the week before a massive buff or nerf. I don't know whether they're lying or it's PR spin, and I don't care, but it does happen.

If WoW making more money resulted in larger, better raids, Firelands and Dragon Soul would have been 20 bosses and part of the five raid tiers in Cataclysm. WoW was coming off its most successful period ever. Money doesn't result in better game design.

So, you're responding to an LFR = more people enjoying raid content = more raid content post by talking about a time before LFR was implemented. Good job!

Hint: LFR was implemented with Dragon Soul. There was no LFR before Dragon Soul. So, why are you talking about Firelands and Dragon Soul? LFR obviously couldn't have had any impact on them, since, you know, it hadn't been implemented yet.

- - - Updated - - -

And yet the quality of raids has gone to shit.....hmmmm.....Blizz says a lot of things.

Now THAT is a matter of opinion. I'm about to say something that is probably going to confuse and anger you, so get ready:

Before LFR, we had Firelands (7 bosses). First LFR raid was Dragon Soul, with 8 bosses. Aside from Ragnaros, these two raids get shit on a LOT by the community. They're quite unpopular.

After LFR was implemented, we've had MSV/HoF/ToES (single raid tier, 16 bosses?), Throne of Thunder (12/13 bosses?) and Siege (14 bosses?). While ToT was current, the general forum consensus seemed to be "the next Ulduar!" Siege is suffering from end-of-expansion syndrome, but it's also a very well designed and fun raid. MSV/HoF/ToES had their issues, but they were definitely better than Firelands and Dragon Soul.

So... Well, I guess the quality of raids has actually IMPROVED since LFR was implemented. Huh, imagine that!

[nekobaka]

I find it ironic that players who ignore mechanic, or "Just zerg it" are the players who do normal and heroic raids and complain the most when they are doing the majority of the DPS.

Of course you will find people doing "sub-par" DPS in LFR. Why? Because they are part of the intended audience. Not the normal/heroic mode raiders. You are in their playground. You have your raid difficulty, they have theirs. Blizzard should have made LFR share the same loot lockout as with the other modes.

I find both sides to do it when the content allows it. Nothing unique of raiders. "Sub-par" dps in LFR is allowed because the content is designed around being able to pull through with griefers and the bottom minority rather than the majority being punished by a minority like Cata heroics. There is also human nature to pull bare minimum. Not to say everyone would pull top 1% of numbers if they had to, but not everyone is going to try and put their best forward when they dont have to especially when doing so might get you ridiculed as much as sitting on the bottom.

There is a growing mindset that being a skillful teamplayer makes you toxic, but being lazy and selfcentered makes you good for the community.

Blizzard intended in MoP for both non-tradition and traditional players to do LFR. The developers even intended to shove casual raiders into LFR as their end game by increasing normal mode difficulty. Blizzard was being greedy as fuck in trying to shove too wide of a player base into LFR in order to ensure that LFR kept afloat. The developers gave in later admitting that the target audience was too broad for LFR. Sticking soloists and team players together in content that requires teamwork always results in issues.

After LFR was implemented, we've had MSV/HoF/ToES (single raid tier, 16 bosses?), Throne of Thunder (12/13 bosses?) and Siege (14 bosses?). While ToT was current, the general forum consensus seemed to be "the next Ulduar!" Siege is suffering from end-of-expansion syndrome, but it's also a very well designed and fun raid. MSV/HoF/ToES had their issues, but they were definitely better than Firelands and Dragon Soul.

So... Well, I guess the quality of raids has actually IMPROVED since LFR was implemented. Huh, imagine that!

With a gutted five man resources and a 40% increase in development staff over Cata. ICC had ToC before it which was two rooms and lots of reused art. Also no the general forum consensuses was not the next Ulduar, but rather a hope to be the next Ulduar which at least in popularity threads of today rarely if ever gets mentioned. ToT however was viewed as a step up in the right direction of the bad of T14. T14 had a lot of shit thrown at it and was a heavily lopsided tier in terms of raid difficulty and enjoyment with the bulk of difficulty in the middle and ToES being a joke. Boss wise Firelands was a good raid with most complaints was generally difficulty from those who found T11 too hard or the size and lots of orange-red. DS on the other hand failed on so many levels of end product execution. The developers had a lot of lofty ideas with design intents that just failed. Resources was burned regardless.

[Jijek]

It's not the amount of difficulties that bother me but more the huge gear disparity it has created. Someone in LFR SoO gear is literally nothing compared to one in normal.. where in Dragon Soul it was decently comparable.

[Deleted]

Problem with multiple difficulties is its part of gearing process. Level up, do LFR to get gear, do flex to get more gear, do normal, then do heroic. Too much repetition of same content.

Of course it is possible to bypass that in theory by doing previous tier raids... nah. Who am I kidding. There are two types of pugs for previous tier: for achievements/mounts that require heroic gear from latest tier or wipefest LFR players groups who can't pass trash after first boss. So trying to do linear progression is pretty much impossible these days.