Why do poisons have a duration?

[rogueMatthias]

Remove the duration and people will complain how it "dumbs the game down".

It does "dumb down the game". Not in terms of how challenging it is, but certainly in terms of the depth of the game.

I used to have to actually find shady dealers in the backs of cities to track down items to make my new poisons,
I had to train up my lock picking so that I could pick more complex locks (and I used to have to carry around lock picking tools in order to),
I used to have to buy vanishing powder and blinding powder in case I needed them,
I used to deal more damage with poisons and have greater control stunning people to make up for being squishy as hell compared to all the plate wearers (maybe this was overkill at times).
I used to scope out corridors for our raid to find any traps to stop them getting activated while we're pulling trash.

Has the removal of all of this made my boring rotations any more "easy"?? No.

Has it helped to completely sucked pretty much all character out of the class??? Hell yes.

[Verain]

Once they nerfed blind, they needed to take out that requirement.

The rest of those were garbage bagspace things, sadly.


Now, what would be the RIGHT way of doing this?


> If you have to craft your poisons, the crafting should be meaningful. You should have a chance to get something more, some times. That would have been pretty rough for them to do. If it's just doing a bit of math and then buying poisons and pressing craft, well, that's something, but it's kind of lame. If the reagents needed to be harvested from the world and made tons of poisons such that you had to go on poison adventure every couple weeks that would be pretty cool, but you'd need a reward in some manner- it's not like warriors have to go do drama like that, etc. If instead you could buy weaker poisons for little, good poisons for a bit more, and craft the best ones, then fine- but again, you couldn't just balance rogues around always using the best ones. As an example, pretend the best poisons couldn't be used in a raid or rated pvp- that guarantees the class wouldn't be balanced around having them all the time. Also, these would need to be all on a goddamned flyout like today (but with charged representing them), not taking up 8 spots in a bag or whatever.

>I thought leveling lock picking was fine (it separated the dedicated rogues from the less dedicated), but carrying around the tools was just more bag garbage. Leveling it was pretty cool in vanilla, and became less fun later, because it wasn't really supported by having cool spots in the world where it mattered. Also, every dungeon became some giant fucking citadel or cave instead of being anything remotely organic, no one ever had a goddamned chest anywhere, those that were somehow never had locks, etc. They fucked up this rogue feel badly leaving vanilla, but the presence of stealthable chests gave many rogues the accidental feeling that the devs gave a shit and had our backs. Lich King removed the rest of this, leaving locks a gutted mechanism entirely. The loss of this shrunk the world measurably and made the class lose a lot of the rogue feel, and it was bad, and they should feel bad for it.

> That goddamned vanish dust can suck my dick and die on fire. I hated that shit so much. If I could vanish without it but got an extra good vanish with it, then sure (and, again, you could make the good stuff not work in arena, if that's what it takes for it to actually be good). The reason this was balls is because it was ALWAYS a thing. You either bought three fucking stacks before you went out battlegrounding or raiding, or you ran the real risk of running out. We even had a raid wipe because a rogue who needed to vanish fucking couldn't. I always got in a panic if I looked at that stack and had less than 20. It was seriously unfun. That shit can go to hell so hard. This didn't add depth, it added stress to my life.

> Blinding Powder was actually balanced around it being hard to get. Because it came from an actual reagent, it was pretty ok. Once it got nerfed to no longer be on prep and share DR with literally anything any arena partner might have, all of which happened almost instantly, it needed to lose its special reagent status. What would have been better, would have been to ban the thing in arena, balance rogues around not having it, and keeping it as a cool world pvp power, like all the other classes have.

> Thistle Tea is pretty much the same thing. Warriors get a rage version of this, btw, so now would be a great time to let TT work again, if the devs remember we are here. Again, this sort of jive is already banned in rated pvp, so you could ban it in a raid and have a cool thing again.


I know a lot of this is "ban it in the parts of the game that matter", but at the end of the day, unless everyone is going to have to do similar labor to play at their peak, rogues shouldn't be punished in that regard- and if you allow it in arena and raids, you have to fucking balance it, because they aren't going to let arena or endgame pve dps be imbalanced, so if you want anything beyond that, it needs to be unbalanced to be fun, and needs to stay out of the spots where balance is enforced so rigidly. Example: if you can craft a crippling poison that does an extra snare, the world where it's banned in arena is the world where it's a 70% snare and the vendor one is a 50% snare. The world where you CAN use it in arena is the world where it's a 50% snare that you need to compete, and the vendor one is a 45% snare or something- some trivial difference and the devs really are trying to edge out the difference completely. You need to REMOVE it from the tightly balanced play for it to be well designed.

[Ferg]

It does "dumb down the game". Not in terms of how challenging it is, but certainly in terms of the depth of the game.

I used to have to actually find shady dealers in the backs of cities to track down items to make my new poisons,
I had to train up my lock picking so that I could pick more complex locks (and I used to have to carry around lock picking tools in order to),
I used to have to buy vanishing powder and blinding powder in case I needed them,
I used to deal more damage with poisons and have greater control stunning people to make up for being squishy as hell compared to all the plate wearers (maybe this was overkill at times).
I used to scope out corridors for our raid to find any traps to stop them getting activated while we're pulling trash.

Has the removal of all of this made my boring rotations any more "easy"?? No.

Has it helped to completely sucked pretty much all character out of the class??? Hell yes.

Different times.

Gamers of today's non-stop world have no time for that kind of immersion anymore.

[Geckoo]

Well, i agree with both of you that removing all those things killed the character of the class, but i don't enjoy adding layers of complexity just for the sake of it. I don't agree with every single move they've done in the past years, but i think that making the essential parts of the gameplay less complex was a good move. Removing reagents required to use some abilities was a good move.

Removing the crafting from poisons was not that bad, but it has slowly led to the question present in this thread, because once we dind't have to craft them, we asked why we had to buy them, once we don't have to buy them, we ask why we have to reapply them. I want more poisons sure, i want those poisons to be more complex and cool, to be a powerfull tool that gives the rogue versatility to perform different actions, but i don't want nor i think that the class needs more complexity to obtain them and be able to use them. I won't be against it either, but i don't think we need that.

On the other hand, i think that lockpicking was perfect because it added flavour and complexity to one aspect of the class that doesn't have any effect in actual combat, you don't need it to perform well in pvp or pve, it's just a bonus, a mini-game. I also agree that without support it didn't have any sense. I think that with the recent addition of Griftah as our pickpocketing friend both abilities could have some little developement, not as a leveling skill, but as some kind of small repeteable side quest, only for us.

About Thristle Tea, i was really pissed when i saw Energyzing Brew for WW monks, because it felt like just another thing that should have been for rogues but they gave it to monks. They should revisit the concept.

[Feali]

So keep poisons and hope the devs change their design policy that makes poisons shit by turning a 180 then driving the roguemobile at 100mph straight back to town to make up for this lost-in-the-desert-shit. That's the game plan.

More like turning 270. Am I right?

[Taeyon]

Different times.

Gamers of today's non-stop world have no time for that kind of immersion anymore.

For sure, although it might make the game better in the short term, it doesn't really help it in the long run.