Gear in 3.0.. What the...?

[Orange Joe]

It is acceptable, to a degree, because if I am a guild/raid leader(I was when I still played) I can make the choice to not carry people. If they can just go out and outgear those of us that do not do PvP I can not do much about that. It's pretty easy to say, sorry, we are not carrying you. It's much harder to say, no, you cano not participate in that activity or if you do, don't bring the gear.

In addition to this, if I were just a member in a guild, and I choose not to PvP, I will not get picked over someone who does have the gear. People will not carry people through anymore, because you can just go get the PvP gear. This forces players in to an aspect of the game they may not like.

Also, there will be less PuGs. If players do not need to run them for the gear to get to the next tier, they will not. They will spend their time PvPing instead of putting together PuGs.

No.. this is very very wrong. You are not the person to decide who gets gear and who doesn't. I don't care who you are..... No wonder MMO's are dying out.

[Fencers]

Character progression =/= content progression. You don't progress through content until you actually do it.

You can't progress through content unless you progress your character. Content only exists to support the latter.

But the gear itself doesn't automatically progress you through content.

Limited linear character progression systems such as Rift expressly allow content to be completed by statical superiority and input execution. That is the ultimate goal of the gameplay expression.

There is no other manner to play Rift currently.

[Orange Joe]

You can't progress through content unless you progress your character. Content only exists to support the latter.


Limited linear character progression systems such as Rift expressly allow content to be completed by statical superiority and input execution. That is the ultimate goal of the gameplay expression.

There is no other manner to play Rift currently.

Whats your point? Rift has always had "badge" gear that you can use to skip or make content easier. Why is it now that pvp offers another option that this is now an issue?

[Fencers]

Whats your point? Rift has always had "badge" gear that you can use to skip or make content easier. Why is it now that pvp offers another option that this is now an issue?

Because Game Mode A allows progression through Game Mode B without successful completion of A.

I believe I already expressed my opinion on this: link.

One could not obtain PVE gear badges without doing PVE content.

[Orange Joe]

Because Game Mode A allows progression through Game Mode B without successful completion of A.

I believe I already expressed my opinion on this: link.

One could not obtain PVE gear badges without doing PVE content.

Again. So what? How is this different than someone farming badges from a dungeon?

[Fencers]

Again. So what? How is this different than someone farming badges from a dungeon?

Dungeons are a PVE play mode.

[Orange Joe]

Dungeons are a PVE play mode.

So the ONLY difference that makes you upset is because it's pvp?



Why? Why does that matter?

[Lathais]

No.. this is very very wrong. You are not the person to decide who gets gear and who doesn't. I don't care who you are..... No wonder MMO's are dying out.

Umm, yes, I am. As the raid leader and member of loot council, we decide who gets drops first, generally based on attendance. Also, what I stated was not about who gets gear, it's about who goes on runs. We do not carry people. We do not take people who have not earned the gear. If they do not pull their weight in the raid, they do not get gear. I am not going to waste gear on someone who does not utilize it when there is someone else who does.

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So the ONLY difference that makes you upset is because it's pvp?



Why? Why does that matter?

They are 2 different game modes. What you do in one should not affect the other in any way. PvP should not give anything that benefits PvE and PvE should not give things that benefit PvP. It's pretty plain and simple. Adding in things like this forces people to take part in a facet of the game they do not like.

As I pointed out earlier, say I am a regular player, Joe Blow. I dislike PvP with a passion. Well, not really, just PvP in Rift. I do not want to do it at all. I am in a raiding guild. We are starting our first T1 raid. I have all the best gear available from Dungeons and other PvE means. Also in the guild is Jane Blow. Jane Blow doesn't mind or likes PvP. Has a set of PvP gear roughly equivalent to T1, maybe just a small step below, but better than my dungeon gear. Who gets the raid spot?

That is why it matters. If I am going to have to do PvP to get a raid spot or watch other people get in before me, only getting to go as a last resort, why would I even bother to play?

This is clearly a Daglar agenda of getting people to participate in all aspects of the game. He has said before that is what he wants. That notion is stupid. Not everyone will like everything. Forcing players to participate in an aspect of the game they do not enjoy by placing mechanics that make people who do not inferior to those who do is just plain stupid. If you can not see that, well, have fun.

In addition, as stated before(and ignored) if gear roughly equivalent to T1 or at least gear that can get you in to T2 is available through PvP, what happens when T2 comes out? No one will run T1. This can be seen in WoW where they have catch-up mechanisms as well. Once the nest tier comes out, no one runs the old tier. There will be no PuGs. There will be no guilds running the old content. Mechanics like this invalidate content.

[Fencers]

So the ONLY difference that makes you upset is because it's pvp?

I think you are attributing an emotional state to my posts that is not present or intended. Slightly confused why you are choosing to attach an emotional reaction of being "upset" to my post herein.

I believe I stated my opinion flatly and logically consistent: link

To reiterate: I do not think it is good game design for one mode of play to progress a character in another mode of play. In particular when mode A offers progression through mode B without having to partake in mode B.

If I excelled in mode A, I also by proxy automatically excel in mode B under this proposed system change. Even if I never engage in mode B. As the entire gameplay expression of Rift (barring major core development overhaul) is based on the limited linear progression of character power as defined by statistical superiority.

No, I do not think that is good game design.

[Fkiolaris]

Would people be ok then if the gear coming from the 2 different environments had a hard cap on the other that is below the top level?

In other words, pvp gear would have 2 tiers (X and X+1) and raiding PvE gear would have X+2 (T1) and X+3 (T2), with Heroic Dungeons giving X+1. So if you get BiS from PvP and try to get to PvE you will then be at the point to start T1 while on the other hand anything above X+1 (so raid gear in effect) will always have the stats squashed to X+1 or just X whenever you get in an instanced PvP environment. From there on it is a matter of Trion balancing as much as possible the rates of acquisition of gear per side of the game and there are numerous ways of trying to do so, albeit with none being ideal or too simple/easy. However, since they have made up their mind to share gear between the two environments, they could try something like that.

[Fencers]

Would people be ok then if the gear coming from the 2 different environments had a hard cap on the other that is below the top level?

I still think it is bad game design.

One would still be able to overcome the statistical requirements of one mode without having played that mode at all.

[Khelendros]

To be clear, I do not care about how quickly another progresses relative to me.

I do care that one can progress in an opposing game mode at a rate equal or greater than in another. That is to say, I do not think it is good game design for one game mode (PVP) to progress your character along at a rate that is disproportional to actually completing another game mode (PVE).

I have the expectation that if I am engaged in game mode A successfully I am progressing in that game mode's difficulty and challenge. I do not have the expectation that by engaging in game mode B successfully I am progressing in game mode A's difficulty and challenge.

To clarify. BIS gear from raids will still be BIS gear for raids. This gear will be bolstered down when in warfronts to pve players have no advantage. Valor and Vengeance are gone replaced by universal values in pvp. PVP players may have a path to get raid drop equivalents but it will likely be RNG (from chests or the like). The marks will be unified so you get expert and raid marks from pvp.

As for what I'm seeing here with raiders thinking they are better than pvp players. Thats the kind of crap that Trion is trying to stop. Once upon a time games had only one type of gear. Best pvp game of all time? One type of gear. PVP players are no better or no worse than a raider. Time spent is time spent and you could make a strong argument that at the top level PVP is much harder than raiding. Being that you are up against a player who can think and react where a raid boss is just an elaborate script.

Play the game the way you want, stop caring about what others do (not directed at you Fencers, general statement).

[Fencers]

The marks will be unified so you get expert and raid marks from pvp.

Gah, that's even worse. It now creates a meta goal where optimizing the rate of currency acquisition for one mode allows automatic access to the content of another mode of play.

This is some really awful game design.

[ItachiZaku]

This reminds me of a story I like to tell.

This is one of those WoW stories, I'm sorry. We were in Black Temple (end raid, expansion 2) and were on some random boss. We had 24/25 in the raid and another person I play with in world PVP was on. I suggest they ask him if he wanted to join. Raid leader says "No, he's just a PVPer" and I ask "well, did you even ask him?" "No. Pulling in 5"

We wipe at 25K health (3.2 million health Supremus). I tell my 10 man group in our side channel that this PVP hunter hits like a fucking truck and even if he fired one shot and went AFK, his pet and auto attacks would have easily won us this fight. 4 minutes later, my buddy joins the raid. Next attempt, easymode. Guess who was #1 damage/DPS? Yep.

He had some PVP gear on, so did I. Back then, the gear was good enough to use, wasn't necessarily better, not in top raids at least. But that stigma that he was less of a player, or was less of an asset was straight bullshit.

I can understand PVE heroes being all puffy about some dirty PVPer coming to their raid, or some PVP Jock made that some PVEr comes in with a legendary axe and trinkets and pwns some face. But in the end "bring the player, not the class" comes to play and I want someone in my raid who wants to be there and is good at what they do, more importantly, LIKES what they do.

Giving players different options to achieve the same goal is not a bad thing.

[Khelendros]

Gah, that's even worse. It now creates a meta goal where optimizing the rate of currency acquisition for one mode allows automatic access to the content of another mode of play.

This is some really awful game design.

This is some closed minded thinking.

Bottom line, you participate in more parts of the game you may come out a little ahead of the guy doing just PVP or maybe even just PVE. Time is time though. You can only do much in a day so I suspect PVE will still trump PVP in terms of earning potential for gear.

It also made no sense that someone who played alot of pvp had gear that was so bad for PVE that he could barely do experts. People are still going to require achievements for raiding. But this at least breaks down some of the barriers between content and allows people to more easily do what they want to do without feeling gimped in the other "mode". I suspect the end goal is to get rid of this idea of play modes all together and make it so you are just playing the game. The game is just the game, the gear is just gear. Its not pve or pvp. At least I think thats what they are trying to do. Will it work? I honestly don't know. Alot of people are very set in their ways and not open to changing their ways of thinking.

[Fencers]

Bottom line, you participate in more parts of the game you may come out a little ahead of the guy doing just PVP or maybe even just PVE. Time is time though. You can only do much in a day so I suspect PVE will still trump PVP in terms of earning potential for gear.

"It now creates a meta goal where optimizing the rate of currency acquisition for one mode allows automatic access to the content of another mode of play."

I suspect the end goal is to get rid of this idea of play modes all together and make it so you are just playing the game.

The entire gameplay of Rift would have to be changed fundamentally for this to be true.

Unless raid groups are doing battle with Regulos in the middle of a PVP battlefield in 3.0 this is unlikely to be true.

Its not pve or pvp.

It is though. The game has two modes of play that do not overlap in any play mechanism aside from controlling your character. The rules of the game are not even the same in the two modes.

Both of those modes are even two-phased.

[Lathais]

The game is just the game, the gear is just gear. Its not pve or pvp. At least I think thats what they are trying to do. Will it work? I honestly don't know. Alot of people are very set in their ways and not open to changing their ways of thinking.

No, this is not what they are trying to do. What they are trying to do is force PvErs to PvP and PvPrs to PvE. Daglar has said in the past he wants all players to participate in all parts of the game. This shared currency will force this upon players. Players who enjo both or have time to do both will get picked over players who do not. If you do not do both you are inferior. Well personally, I have neither the time to both or the willingness to do PvP.

Also, this effectively acts as a catch-up mechanism. If you do not have to do T1 to get into T2 then when T2 comes out T1 will become a ghost town. When T3 comes out, T2 will not be run. Just look at WoW where there are catch-up mechanisms. This means no more PuGs, as typically, guilds will start PuGinf T1 when they start progressing in T2. Instead, they will just be PvPing now.

Instead of dealing with that, I will just not play. I know, QQ more, can I has your stuff, whatever. Not gonna waste my time in a game where they attempt to force me in to aspects I do not enjoy. Maybe I'll start up a second D&D group to play on my awesome table sized tablet with interactive maps.

[Clymene]

It is acceptable, to a degree, because if I am a guild/raid leader(I was when I still played) I can make the choice to not carry people. If they can just go out and outgear those of us that do not do PvP I can not do much about that. It's pretty easy to say, sorry, we are not carrying you. It's much harder to say, no, you cano not participate in that activity or if you do, don't bring the gear.

In addition to this, if I were just a member in a guild, and I choose not to PvP, I will not get picked over someone who does have the gear. People will not carry people through anymore, because you can just go get the PvP gear. This forces players in to an aspect of the game they may not like.

Also, there will be less PuGs. If players do not need to run them for the gear to get to the next tier, they will not. They will spend their time PvPing instead of putting together PuGs.

.
You bring up a good point. The only reason I care about gear is to see the content. Killing a boss 50x is not really all that interesting. So if I can get gear at my own pace without all hoopla that goes along with a regular raid group or the ridiculous current requirements for PUGs, I'm definitely going that route.

[Khelendros]

No, this is not what they are trying to do. What they are trying to do is force PvErs to PvP and PvPrs to PvE. Daglar has said in the past he wants all players to participate in all parts of the game. This shared currency will force this upon players. Players who enjo both or have time to do both will get picked over players who do not. If you do not do both you are inferior. Well personally, I have neither the time to both or the willingness to do PvP.

Also, this effectively acts as a catch-up mechanism. If you do not have to do T1 to get into T2 then when T2 comes out T1 will become a ghost town. When T3 comes out, T2 will not be run. Just look at WoW where there are catch-up mechanisms. This means no more PuGs, as typically, guilds will start PuGinf T1 when they start progressing in T2. Instead, they will just be PvPing now.

Instead of dealing with that, I will just not play. I know, QQ more, can I has your stuff, whatever. Not gonna waste my time in a game where they attempt to force me in to aspects I do not enjoy. Maybe I'll start up a second D&D group to play on my awesome table sized tablet with interactive maps.

Or instead of flipping out about something we don't even yet know about how about we actually wait till it goes live fully before we assume the sky is falling.

Man I thought the Rift PVP forums were rough...

Also I think its time for a dose of logic and reality. Lets do some math.

The rate at which you acquire gear in pvp marks will be roughly equal to what it was before (except they are the unified currency). Unlike many of you I have pvped alot. I do both aspects of the game. PVP you gain gear much much much slower as there are more ranks to get through.

If you have 6 hours to play and you have a choice to raid for 6 hours. or PVP for 6 hours or PVP and PVE for 6 hours. PVE will get you alot more gear. Alot. Just from marks alone but don't forget you get boss drops also. If you split your focus you are actually gimping yourself.

The whole point is to allow pvp players who could never do raiding previous to do so without having to grind experts. They can do what they love and still be relevant in PVE if their guild needs them for killing Martodraum or something.

So you guys are getting mad over nothing. Unless you are bothered because PVP players can now do the same thing you do.

[Fencers]

If you have 6 hours to play and you have a choice to raid for 6 hours. or PVP for 6 hours or PVP and PVE for 6 hours. PVE will get you alot more gear. Alot. Just from marks alone but don't forget you get boss drops also. If you split your focus you are actually gimping yourself.

So long as you can acquire marks in PVP when not raiding it would always be in your best interest to be PVPing when not raiding.

If you just did PVP you might not gain statistical progression as quickly as someone whom only raided, perhaps. However, if you only engaged in PVE you would gain statiscal power slower absolutely than someone who did PVE and PVP.

Thus the meta goal is created that if one wished to be competitive in PVE they must engage in PVP and PVE regardless of the rate of acquisition because the modes are asymmetrical.

This can not be resolved from a design POV under any circumstance other than changing the fundamental rule set of Rift.