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  1. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    Crit is barely a DPS increase over for example mastery honestly, and is generally a poor stat for intagible reasons (somewhat random, although playable around, and a lot of things just aren't avoidable). I really don't recommend it, as you are tossing out too much survivability for tiny DPS gains (and there is always a ratio where it's not worth it for new content, even if you favour DPS heavily, which I also do), but do what you will. You won't 'cap' MS at 30% not even close (even with 32% MS and about 22% haste, I am NOWHERE near GCD cap outside of lust unless I have amazing RNG), so I don't think worrying about that has much point this tier until maybe the very end. So MS will remain by far and away the better DPS stat compared to anything but STR/BA for a while yet.

    If you are anywhere near GCD locking outside of lust/right on the pull with full runes ATM, you likely aren't hitting abilities right on the GCD. And as stupid as that may sound, it's an insanely common issue that I see; even in 5.4 Blood wasn't really GCD locked outside of lust/AMS soaking/AoE Tanking contrary to popular belief at the time, was more like 80-90% Gcd locked, even with a bit of haste.
    why do you prefer gearing for damage? do you feel that it's mathematically correct to do, and that if you're raiding on the bleeding edge and have great healers, you should gear for as much damage as you can get away with, as long as you're not dying?

    would you recommend gearing for lots of multistrike/damage to a blood DK that's unsure of the quality of their raid (trying out for guilds, playing with new people/healers), or is it safest to always gear for mitigation until the extra damage is required?

  2. #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Vizer View Post
    you should gear for as much damage as you can get away with, as long as you're not dying
    You answered your own question

  3. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Cryopathy View Post
    The big issues are, which were explained earlier:
    -You can't really predict damage/fight patterns and use CDs proactively. I just roll every cooldown consecutively instead because there's not much you can do about this.
    -You can't rely on actions based off being at a certain percentage of health. In the default Simcraft setup, you spend almost the entire fight under 0 health as far as the program is concerned.
    For a realistic DK simulation you'd need to include healers, healers moving, healers going oom and all that kind of stuff since we rely on healing and DS'ing right after a heal will result in overhealing.

    I'm going to use the following stat weights for survival:
    BA>>Sta=Str>Msty=MS=Haste>Vers>Crit
    Seems to be the best estimation for reality. But it's not that you have such a big choice in loot anyway. From ilvl 650 on you go strictly by ilvl and simming won't help your playstyle since we know what to do. It's all about the correct execution and prediction.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by dr_AllCOM3 View Post
    For a realistic DK simulation you'd need to include healers, healers moving, healers going oom and all that kind of stuff since we rely on healing and DS'ing right after a heal will result in overhealing.

    I'm going to use the following stat weights for survival:
    BA>>Sta=Str>Msty=MS=Haste>Vers>Crit
    Seems to be the best estimation for reality. But it's not that you have such a big choice in loot anyway. From ilvl 650 on you go strictly by ilvl and simming won't help your playstyle since we know what to do. It's all about the correct execution and prediction.
    Yep. Agreed. My goal is really just to provide a semi-realistic APL (i.e. don't spam all our runes away immediately) for the purposes of evaluating our DPS rather than TMI or any other survival metric.

  5. #205
    I'm sure this has been covered, but those that are new to level 100 and have the gold to spend, use it to buy the cheapest warlord crafted piece you want and just spend little extra gold buying the reforger. I see people selling mastery/multistrike for like 2-3x as much as something like crit/haste

  6. #206
    Oh, you changed your name from Troxism or something?

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    Part of the trinket nerfs, too bad they only affected some trinkets. Sadly that trinket is pretty bad for it's ilvl, since crit procs don't give any parry (for some stupid reason), but it's better then nothing obviously as it does give good DPS, and the Strength is at least decent, although lower then static stat 5 man trinkets...
    Any idea if theres word on more trinket nerfs? I'm pretty upset that my 661 trinket is worse mitigation-wise than my str mastery and str multistrike heroic trinkets lol :|. They really need to let riposte benefit from crit or take crit procs off gear/out of loot rolls for blood. DMC trink proccing crit is equally puzzling..

  8. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by xpose View Post
    I'm sure this has been covered, but those that are new to level 100 and have the gold to spend, use it to buy the cheapest warlord crafted piece you want and just spend little extra gold buying the reforger. I see people selling mastery/multistrike for like 2-3x as much as something like crit/haste
    got a mastery/ms helm for 16.5k and a mastery/ms chest for 22.5k on SAURFANG-oceanic

    dont buy ring/capes/necklaces as the itemization from highmaul is quite decent on those slots
    the shittier slots are : wrists gloves and waist (all have crit)
    the meh slots : helm
    Last edited by Milocow; 2014-12-01 at 07:53 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gatsbybutters View Post
    This is actually favorite herb to farm. I'll hop in vent while the guild is running mythics and w/e and talk about me farming it.
    "How many fargenshlackle does it take to rank 3?"
    "I keep falling off these ledges farming this fragglerockenfargle"
    "I can't get this fargenfoliac to gather... is this fargenfurter node bugged" And so on until they mute me.

  9. #209
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    Crit is barely a DPS increase over for example mastery honestly, and is generally a poor stat for intagible reasons (somewhat random, although playable around, and a lot of things just aren't avoidable). I really don't recommend it, as you are tossing out too much survivability for tiny DPS gains (and there is always a ratio where it's not worth it for new content, even if you favour DPS heavily, which I also do), but do what you will. You won't 'cap' MS at 30% not even close (even with 32% MS and about 22% haste, I am NOWHERE near GCD cap outside of lust unless I have amazing RNG), so I don't think worrying about that has much point this tier until maybe the very end. So MS will remain by far and away the better DPS stat compared to anything but STR/BA for a while yet.

    If you are anywhere near GCD locking outside of lust/right on the pull with full runes ATM, you likely aren't hitting abilities right on the GCD. And as stupid as that may sound, it's an insanely common issue that I see; even in 5.4 Blood wasn't really GCD locked outside of lust/AMS soaking/AoE Tanking contrary to popular belief at the time, was more like 80-90% Gcd locked, even with a bit of haste.
    I agree on the GCD part. Its just that theres quite a few breathing rooms on a lot of the bosses (transitions etc) where you generally want to have every rune on cd aswell as a nice balance with your rp/bt charges - having too much haste just has a bad feel to it if you cant spend your resources fast enough.

    Regarding your view on crit I have to say I disagree quite heavily. After reading most of this thread it feels like you undervalue it WAY too much. Sure, you might not get the parries when you really need them, but when you do its a godsend for the healers. And yes, you cant parry spells, but how often do you actually get a Shadow bolt or similar thrown at you? Even for Aoe spells, theres not really any stat that helps a lot (same goes for every tank pretty much) and in the end the boss auto attack will almost always be doing atleast ~80% of all the dmg on you.

    "Crit is barely a dps increase of mastery" - no idea what you base this on cause after simming myself with ms/mast>crit>vers>haste gear, my stats scale like this. (somehow bonus armor got left out but its not far from STR)


    And heres my DTPS sim.



    I am totally aware these sims obviously have to be taken with a grain of salt but I cant imagine them being all that far off (multistrike is obv a case of its own def wise ...)
    Last edited by mmoca70212b9fb; 2014-12-01 at 08:39 PM.

  10. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by Drunkenvalley View Post
    Oh, you changed your name from Troxism or something?
    Not sure what you mean?

    Wall of text pertaining to the discussion on Crit: if you are curious why I keep saying Crit isn't that good for mitigation, I suggest reading the whole thing.

    On the topic of Crit: Yeah 20% more is 'barely any dps', considering it's tiny mitigation benefit. I do keep saying MS/Crit is the best DPS build, but I just can't recommend it for progression raiding because you are going to be a total glass cannon. Also you are simming TDR, and forgetting to sim HPS. Crit is Blood's best TDR stat on paper, but it does absolutely nothing for healing (and also doesn't help with damage smoothing, although like I keep saying, that has more to do with playstyle then gear). Keep in mind Blood Shield got gutted, so Mastery doesn't actually reduce damage much anymore, it's mostly a healing stat, and therefore so are Haste and Vers as well.

    Try adding up the HPS benefits of Mastery/Vers/Haste with it's TDR, and then you start seeing how bad Crit is, considering all it's intangible disadvantages. Also that sim is obviously not valuing Haste right, because Haste does contribute damage reduction via Blood Shield (and more then it is showing if you do some napkin math), although that isn't really an important point.

    You say it's rare to get spellcasts, but most physical specials aren't parryable too, and neither are DoTs. Butcher's DoT/Special Strike, Kromog's Smash/tank debuff, any of Ko'raghs debuffs, Inferno Slice on Gruul, Acid Spew on Oregrorger, the Magic Dot on Blast Furnace and Operator Thogar, Blade Dash on Iron Maidens, Slam on Blackhand, Hans'gar and Franzok's Slam, Beastlords DoT (that DoT DESTROYS tanks, it is seriously like 60% of the damage you take and it's 100% unaffected by crit/parry), Flamebender's dogs Fire breath (and her DoT), ect. There are tons of magic debuffs, physical debuffs, and special attacks that are COMPLETELY unaffected by crit. And most of the time, stuff like Inferno Slice, Flamebender Dogs breath ect, are the dangerious parts of the fight. The DoT on Operator Thogar is like half his damage output for example. These aren't 'edge' cases, these are pretty important to consider and they happen a LOT. The only boss I can think of that does nothing but autoattacks is Imperator, and even that has tons of AOE Magic damage being tossed around (esp in the intermission), that again, Mastery helps you with and Crit doesn't do anything for.

    While you are right that Crit is okay for a few fights, I would never recommend a gearing strategy just for a few fights, and Mastery, Haste and Vers all pull considerably ahead mitigation wise on many fights over Crit.

    This is obviously an anecdote (and bosses have been retuned since, so take it with another grain of salt), but from beta testing I can tell you crit really feels shitty to play with.

    On top of this crit gives 0 HPS. Looking at just TDR and ignoring HPS is beyond silly for valuing crit. Also if you do decide to sim HPS, make sure the boss you are simming actually hits hard enough that you don't do 50%+ overhealing (because simcraft won't include overhealing).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Actually I should probably clarify something I said: On the topic of Crit: Yeah 20% more is 'barely any dps', considering it's tiny mitigation benefit.

    What I meant by that was when I actually made up a MS/Crit gear set vs a Mastery/MS gear set, I found that you only gained about 3% DPS, and lost about 10% mitigation, which is a pretty bad tradeoff. Because MS provides most of your DPS anyways, Crit gets 'overshadowed' a lot since you can't always pick and choose your stats on gear, and you just end up picking MS most of the time, since it is better for that.

    On the topic of Haste, Crit, Vers, Mastery ect, I want to give a more clearer explanation of what I mean:

    1: Like I said, a lot of the non Crit stats benefit is tied up in HPS (even Bonus Armour, esp Str)

    2: To be fair, I don't think anyone is arguing Crit compares to Mastery for mitigation

    Therefore the real comparison is more between Vers/Haste/Crit. And in sims, Haste kind of falls behind the other 2, even including HPS. But in reality that just doesn't happen. Let's take Imperator Mar'gok as an example (an end boss, so relevant to gearing strategies):

    He mostly just autottacks (like I said aoe magic damage but lets ignore that). On first glance that makes you think Crit would be the best stat for him. But in reality this doesn't happen. You tank swap every 5-8 autoattacks from him, and he gets a haste buff every swing, so you swap VERY rapidly (basically only slowing down to avoid Taunt DR). Which means you have a short window of taking high damage, then a window of taking almost 0 damage. This window is short enough, that you won't get all your resources back in it. So what this means is Haste has 'full' effect; you are always going to be benefiting from it mitigation wise on this fight, because you will either be using resources actively, or banking them for the next round of you actually tanking.

    Crit and Vers however, even if somewhat numerically superior compared to Haste, are only useful while actually tanking on this fight. They do nothing but increase DPS otherwise. So half the time they actually do nothing at all mitigation wise on this fight. Meaning their value is massively cut.

    I constantly say in the guide that 'numerically' Haste is pretty weak. But in reality, unlike the sim, you aren't tanking 100% of the time. And Haste starts to pull ahead in those cases. Also like I said previously, tons of fights have DoTs/Specials that aren't avoidable, but do a large % of the total damage, which makes Crit even more devalued.

    This is pretty much exactly why I say Haste = Vers > Crit is the above reasons. Not because I simmed it to be so (although the statement is somewhat based on simming as well), but because in reality it just pans out that way. But if you don't like Haste, Vers is a great alternative numerically, and on many fights is quite strong. But I just cannot recommend Crit as a mitigation stat for the reasons described.

    Edit: On the flip side, I do specifically say 'Crit isn't a trash stat'. Just because I don't think it's as good, doesn't make it useless. Honestly Blood DK stats aren't as far off from each other as some other specs, barring Mastery being sky high for mitigation and MS for DPS. The other 3 stats are somewhat close.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-01 at 10:33 PM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  11. #211
    Deleted
    If the sim is not counting in the extra Death strikes from haste then how can haste even be above 0 or is there something Im missing? Im curious actually lol

    I see your point that a lot of boss abilities cant be parried, and therefor crit is useless, but is there really ANY stat that properly helps you against spells?
    Mastery increases your ap by a slight bit -> a tiny bit more ds healing (blood shield does nada). Vers surely reduces your dmg by what - 2% with 500 rating (not sure what the DR is like)? Not very significant, even counting the extra healing. And then haste is just... pathetic considering how little rune speed you gain per stat, and therefor helps almost nothing against spells. Multistrike is kinda the same as haste except it does its job way better (it also boosts your hp by a ton).

    In other words, sure crit is the "worst" but its meaningless cause all stats suck hard against spells/boss abilities. Undervalueing the defensive side of crit because of this is just silly in my humble opinion, having a decent parry chance has never been bad - specially not if its also your 2nd best dps stat.

    My point here is just that writing things like "get any 3 crafted items as long as theres no crit on it" is just misleading and could possibly force readers away from items where they really shouldnt be.
    This is obviously your guide and your opinions, Im just trying to throw some light on a different perspective and hopefully reduce the slight hate against crit great guide otherwise! hehe

    edit: fun fact, just checked your armory and noticed you have more crit than me haha. stat rng ftw
    edit2: nvm youre a blood elf
    Last edited by mmoca70212b9fb; 2014-12-01 at 10:27 PM.

  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Troxism View Post
    Not sure what you mean?
    Hah, sorry, I had moment of confusion where I was going, "...Is Cryopath and Troxism the same person?" Idk, you two just came off as twins to me somehow, don't mind me.

  13. #213
    Deleted


    Vers pulling ahead on the TMI sims? Sorry for the sim spam, first time simming my char now that I wont really get a lot of upgrades until the raid is out.

  14. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post
    If the sim is not counting in the extra Death strikes from haste then how can haste even be above 0 or is there something Im missing? Im curious actually lol

    I see your point that a lot of boss abilities cant be parried, and therefor crit is useless, but is there really ANY stat that properly helps you against spells?
    Mastery increases your ap by a slight bit -> a tiny bit more ds healing (blood shield does nada). Vers surely reduces your dmg by what - 2% with 500 rating (not sure what the DR is like)? Not very significant, even counting the extra healing. And then haste is just... pathetic considering how little rune speed you gain per stat, and therefor helps almost nothing against spells. Multistrike is kinda the same as haste except it does its job way better (it also boosts your hp by a ton).

    In other words, sure crit is the "worst" but its meaningless cause all stats suck hard against spells/boss abilities. Undervalueing the defensive side of crit because of this is just silly in my humble opinion, having a decent parry chance has never been bad - specially not if its also your 2nd best dps stat.

    My point here is just that writing things like "get any 3 crafted items as long as theres no crit on it" is just misleading and could possibly force readers away from items where they really shouldnt be.
    This is obviously your guide and your opinions, Im just trying to throw some light on a different perspective and hopefully reduce the slight hate against crit great guide otherwise! hehe

    edit: fun fact, just checked your armory and noticed you have more crit than me haha. stat rng ftw
    edit2: nvm youre a blood elf
    Actually any stat that increases AP or DS frequency/size helps against spells, since healing doesn't discriminate against damage type (and HPS is something Crit does literally 0 of). Vers also directly reduces spell damage. A lot of Mastery's benefit IS the AP > Healing actually, not just the shield. Also saying it's 500 Vers for 2% spell DR fails to take into account that you would also get 4% more healing from that. Also to get 2% parry would take about 350-400 Crit rating (depends on how much you already have), and gives 0 healing, so keep that in mind. It's 110 crit rating for 1% crit, but 110 parry rating does not give 1% parry (even with no DR, it's about 160 or 170 for 1% AFAIK).

    Basically actually yes, the other stats DO help a lot against spells/dots. They give significant HPS benefits.

    Also I didn't say the sim doesn't count extra DS, I meant the issue is likely the usual 'boss doesn't hit hard enough in the sim, or there is another issue'. I've had a lot of issues simming haste correctly as I have even gotten 'negative' values before for it, which is why I mentioned that it may not be 100% accurate. Either way it wasn't really my main point.

    MS doesn't boost HP by a ton at all; most of that max HP bonus you would have 'baseline' even with 0 MS since you generate a lot of RP just naturally.

    As for Vers and TMI, like I said, Mastery/Haste give TMI mainly through your rotation, and how well you time things will massively skew their value. On top of all the other issues of TMI simming for Blood, I'm not really sure what your point is.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-01 at 10:56 PM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by schleimhaut View Post


    Vers pulling ahead on the TMI sims? Sorry for the sim spam, first time simming my char now that I wont really get a lot of upgrades until the raid is out.
    Check if you have an unreasonable amount of blood boil usage, which would be the case if you're using the default APL.

    If you're not using the default APL, please provide yours, because it's probably the issue here.

    Remember, mastery and haste doesn't do anything for your TMI / DTPS if you're not death striking, which explains the low values overall.

  16. #216
    Deleted
    Im using the default one.

  17. #217
    Lol so I was just redoing the trinket lists again, and they LITERALLY 5 mins ago buffed the shit out of some trinkets. 850 stamina? 550 Mastery? 500 Bonus Armour? Yeahhh.

    Forgemasters has 424 STR passively on heroic now. They pretty much doubled the passive stats on half the raid trinkets again. Scabbard got it's Vers back.

    So yeah I give up until they just pick numbers and stick to them.

    At first glance, pretty much all my raid trinket suggestions should be still valid however.
    Last edited by Troxism; 2014-12-02 at 04:24 AM.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  18. #218
    Has anyone tried Lichborne in challenge modes? Does the leech from it work there? Does it scale with resolve? I know leech from gear is disabled (along with all the other tertiary things), and I haven't gotten a chance to try it.

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by grizzlysaurusrex View Post
    Has anyone tried Lichborne in challenge modes? Does the leech from it work there? Does it scale with resolve? I know leech from gear is disabled (along with all the other tertiary things), and I haven't gotten a chance to try it.
    It works, scales with Resolve, heals for absolutely jack shit even with that. Purg is honestly far better.
    I write guides and have a youtube channel where I make kill videos at: https://www.youtube.com/user/EssEmmI

    Feel free to ask me for help regarding to Blood DK play

  20. #220
    Dat DMC Tank trinket 229 BA now

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