Races for monks in warlords?

[rijn dael]

Has anyone got reasonable values for WW monks as the various races?

Seen a lot of conjecture and a couple comments about spacecows, but nothing definitive. I realise they are close right now, but nothing scales evenly - and I want to know what I am opting out of by choosing a race based off other characteristics.

[Venziir]

Has anyone got reasonable values for WW monks as the various races?

Seen a lot of conjecture and a couple comments about spacecows, but nothing definitive. I realise they are close right now, but nothing scales evenly - and I want to know what I am opting out of by choosing a race based off other characteristics.

Pretty sure you mean goats.

[Jocias]

Has anyone got reasonable values for WW monks as the various races?

Seen a lot of conjecture and a couple comments about spacecows, but nothing definitive. I realise they are close right now, but nothing scales evenly - and I want to know what I am opting out of by choosing a race based off other characteristics.

The answer to this depends on your faction and spec. You'd do better asking that question in the sticky for whichever spec you're most interested in playing in WoD. In any case, the reason it hasn't seen much discussion is because racials are fairly well balanced now. The difference between any one race and any other race is so minimal that it's barely worth discussing.

All the same, below I've compiled a list of racials for both factions and given a bit of commentary. If I'm not sure how a racial interacts with monks, I've noted it. If you see something that's wrong on the list, let me know so that I can correct it.

Alliance:
Dwarf: 2% crit damage and healing (not crit chance) + Stoneform (removes bleeds, most dispellable debuffs, and reduces physical damage taken by 10% for 8 seconds)
2% crit damage and healing means that it requires crit chance to be worth much. If you're not at 50% crit chance, then that 2% crit damage is worth less than 1% extra overall damage.
Stoneform could see some use as a tank CD. For healers and DPS, I see stoneform as more situational.

Gnome: 1% haste + Expansive Mind (5% more max energy or mana) + escape artist (like a weak version of a PvP trinket)
Haste isn't great for BrM or MW. It's pretty good for WW.
Escape Artist is situational. I don't expect it to see much use in most encounters.
Not sure how Expansive Mind works with mana or energy regen. It could be decent if it improves regen.

Human: 100 versatility rating + Ever Man for Himself (extra PvP trinket)
100 versatility is about .77% increasaed damage and healing. Also, it's .385% reduced damage taken.
Every Man for Himself functions the same way a PvP trinket does to remove most stuns, fears, etc. I don't see it getting extensive use in a raid environment.

Draenei: 65 int and agi + Gift of the Naaru (20% health over 5 seconds)
The increase to int and agi doesn't scale as well as the other bonuses. This bonus will be strongest compared to the other racials when you have crap for gear.
Gift of the Naaru is a great healing CD. I see this being fairly useful in a raiding environment.

Pandaren: Double the benefit from food + Quaking Palm (4 second incapicitate)
Double food benefit meant a lot more in MoP, where agi was far better than your secondary stats. It doesn't scale particularly well. Unlike the other racials, it is fully customizable. You can choose which stat food that you want to receive double effect from. Very good if you switch specs often. Useless if you don't have a food buff.
Quaking Palm is mostly useless in raids. It doesn't work against most bosses. It doesn't even work against some adds on boss fights.

Night Elf: Increases dodge and movement speed by 2% + 1% haste during the night and 1% crit during the day
Increased dodge and movement speed makes them the best BrM race. Dodge is useless for MWs and WWs for the most part. Not sure if the 2% movement speed increase stacks with WW's native movement speed increase.
Most people raid at night (crit bonus starts at 6am server time and haste bonus at 6pm server time), so you're more likely to get haste than crit. Haste isn't great for BrM or MW, but it's pretty good for WW.


Horde:
Troll: Berserking (+15% haste for 10 seconds) + 10% of total out oc combat health regen during combat + 15% duration reduction on all movement impairing effects.
Mini-Bloodlust is a nice perk. Haste is kind of meh for MW and BrM. Not bad for WWs.
Health regen is marginal, but a little persistent healing for tanks is never a bad thing.
15% reduced duration on movement impairing effects is situational. Not going to see much benefit in a raid.

Undead: Touch of the Grave (Passive that has a chance to deal a small amount of shadow damage whenever you deal damage. The damage you deal, you receive as healing) + Will of the Forsaken (weak version of a PvP trinket)
Touch of the grave does nothing if you aren't doing damage. Not super useful for MWs.
Will of the Forsaken will see limited usefulness in raids.

Blood Elf: 1% critical strike chance + Arcane Torrent
Crit is a decent stat for all specs. Good if you're switching specs a lot.
Arcane torrent is pretty good. AoE silence has limited use in a raid, but the Chi or Mana that you get from it is always a nice benefit.

Tauren: Critical strike damage and healing increased by 2% + 197 stamina + War Stomp (AoE Stun)
See Dwarf for explination of crit strike damage.
Stamina is useless for WW and MW. It's not useless for BrMs, but Stam has never been a huge effective health stat for BrMs, so some of the other bonuses are better.
War Stomp has limited use in raids. Lots of Bosses and adds aren't effected by War Stomp.

Orc: Blood Fury (Increases attack power and spell power by 345 for 15 seconds) + 10% reduced stun duration + 1% increased pet damage
Blood Fury doesn't scale well. Good early in the expansion. Not so great at the end.
Reduced stun duration is of limited use.
I don't beleive Xuen is considered a pet for the purposes of this racial. Not sure how SEF clones are counted toward this bonus.

Pandaren: refer to the alliance version of Pandaren. The racials are the same.

[diggorey]

Stamina is useless for WW and MW

Well, as WW, you can use the increased stamina in combination with Fortifying Brew to increase the damage of Touch of Death quite a bit. So it's not entirely useless for WW, especially considering how many boss fights in WoD include adds.

I don't beleive Xuen is considered a pet for the purposes of this racial.

I think he's treated as a guardian, comparable to as the DK gargoyle. I don't know if the gargoyle profits from the 1% pet damage increase, although they should both profit from Bloodfury.

Undead: Touch of the Grave (Passive that has a chance to deal a small amount of shadow damage whenever you deal damage. The damage you deal, you receive as healing) + Will of the Forsaken (weak version of a PvP trinket)
Touch of the grave does nothing if you aren't doing damage. Not super useful for MWs.

Just a short question: how good is Touch of the Grave in terms of dps? Since the heal should be neglectible for WW (and you're obviously spending a lot of time doing damage).

[Deleted]

Blood Elf Master Race. Since most raicals are somewhat uninteresting in terms of additional DPS (minor exception from pandas) I find the AoE silence very useful. And hey, the sex appeal that comes with the race, untouchable.

[rijn dael]

The answer to this depends on your faction and spec. You'd do better asking that question in the sticky for whichever spec you're most interested in playing in WoD. In any case, the reason it hasn't seen much discussion is because racials are fairly well balanced now. The difference between any one race and any other race is so minimal that it's barely worth discussing.

All the same, below I've compiled a list of racials for both factions and given a bit of commentary. If I'm not sure how a racial interacts with monks, I've noted it. If you see something that's wrong on the list, let me know so that I can correct it.

..snip..

The OP did say WW monk! I am also going alliance this expac, which is why I am interested in choosing a new race :P
I only care about pve, and a 1% damage difference is a lot to me, I have seen too many wipes that would have been first kills sub-1% on a boss. 0.1% maybe.

Looking at the scaling, space*goats* are probably superior WW early on, but since its flat 65 agi that will drop off compared to scaling racials later on?

Seeing how (at least for now) we seem to evaluate crit lowest, that would imply both crit damage dwarf and crit % worgen would be non-ideal stats?

Given ww monk base movespeed+rolls+fsk, I am not so concerned with mobility to weight worgen high for mobility, compared to most other classes/specs.

Nelf seems more flexible when offspeccing and the movespeed is small but nice, but nothing crazy there - and I really dislike the ears :-( - they also vary from a gnome at best-case to a worgen at worst case, with movespeed as a bonus - nothing particularly great?

Panda's are cute and all, but we are back to a static buff - point for point 75 of any stat is probably less dps than 65 agi?

I find gnomes cute, and would happily pick them if I can convince myself I am not missing out on damage because of it. Haste is a reasonable stat, so its mostly a question of the delta between gnome and theoretical best race being small enough I can live with it.

Human seems a safe choice (% damage scales nicely) - hard to evaluate it vs alternatives without actual sim results, but probably winning as soon as we get reasonable gear?

Playing around with Simc, base 1h M profile dps (without race) sits at 44310, and
gnome = 44719
dwarf = 44651
nelf = 44658 (not sure if this is night or day)
human = 44625
draenei = 44695
panda = 44446
edit : worgen missing because wolf-people can't be monks. Guess they aren't in touch with their inner selves :P .. or their outer selves?

That puts them all within 0.7% variance by the end of the current tier, and only 0.22% between the scaling racials (which seem to win even early on). I guess so long as its a scaling racial, it doesn't really matter for now. I can live with a 50dps difference, although theoretically that puts gnome on top, so best of both worlds for me? :P

[Wahaka]

Neither Worgen nor Goblins can roll Monk, unless they're removing class/race combinations come WoD itself.

[rijn dael]

Neither Worgen nor Goblins can roll Monk, unless they're removing class/race combinations come WoD itself.

That probably explains why the sim balks at Wargen then :P

[Jocias]

Neither Worgen nor Goblins can roll Monk, unless they're removing class/race combinations come WoD itself.

Yeah. I just took all the racials from all the races and did commentary for how well they'd work as monks. I'll edit my post to remove races that can't be monks as I could see how that would be confusing.

Just a short question: how good is Touch of the Grave in terms of dps? Since the heal should be neglectible for WW (and you're obviously spending a lot of time doing damage).

Touch of the grave has a 20% proc chance. At level 90, it deals about 500 damage per proc. According to simc, we do like 20k DPS on a single target and perform 40 or so actions per minute that can proc Touch of the Grave.
At 40 actions per minute, that means that TooG should proc about 8 times per minute.
Multiply that by 500 to get how much damage is done per minute. (4000 damage per minute)
4,000 / 60 gives us damage per second. That gives us around 70 DPS.
70 / 20000 tell us how much of a DPS increase we should be seeing from TooG. About a .35% DPS increase if I did all my math right.

[Kaylisto]

Playing around with Simc, base 1h M profile dps (without race) sits at 44310, and
gnome = 44719
dwarf = 44651
nelf = 44658 (not sure if this is night or day)
human = 44625
draenei = 44695
panda = 44446
edit : worgen missing because wolf-people can't be monks. Guess they aren't in touch with their inner selves :P .. or their outer selves?

That puts them all within 0.7% variance by the end of the current tier, and only 0.22% between the scaling racials (which seem to win even early on). I guess so long as its a scaling racial, it doesn't really matter for now. I can live with a 50dps difference, although theoretically that puts gnome on top, so best of both worlds for me? :P

Im wondering if that Panda sim is right? Which food buff did that use? Eating flat agi food they should be closer if not above the draenei.

I went panda personally because I like how the animations are for a fem panda. I would have gone draenei, but those hooves... boots generally look awful on them.

[rijn dael]

Im wondering if that Panda sim is right? Which food buff did that use? Eating flat agi food they should be closer if not above the draenei.

I went panda personally because I like how the animations are for a fem panda. I would have gone draenei, but those hooves... boots generally look awful on them.

Hmm, unsure. It definitely 'recognised' pandaren, or the dps would be 44300ish.

To do the maths, draenei is 65 agi afaik. The food used in the default Simc t17 1h M profile (6.0.3 build 2) is "actions.precombat+=/food,type=rylak_crepes", which is 50 multistrike.

I think food can be obtained up to 75? In which case the number for monks is probably closer to 44525ish - still the bottom as far as I can figure, although all races are within 0.46% in t17 M at that point.

[Vexfu]

The answer to this depends on your faction and spec. You'd do better asking that question in the sticky for whichever spec you're most interested in playing in WoD. In any case, the reason it hasn't seen much discussion is because racials are fairly well balanced now. The difference between any one race and any other race is so minimal that it's barely worth discussing.

All the same, below I've compiled a list of racials for both factions and given a bit of commentary. If I'm not sure how a racial interacts with monks, I've noted it. If you see something that's wrong on the list, let me know so that I can correct it.

Alliance:
Dwarf: 2% crit damage and healing (not crit chance) + Stoneform (removes bleeds, most dispellable debuffs, and reduces physical damage taken by 10% for 8 seconds)
2% crit damage and healing means that it requires crit chance to be worth much. If you're not at 50% crit chance, then that 2% crit damage is worth less than 1% extra overall damage.
Stoneform could see some use as a tank CD. For healers and DPS, I see stoneform as more situational.

Gnome: 1% haste + Expansive Mind (5% more max energy or mana) + escape artist (like a weak version of a PvP trinket)
Haste isn't great for BrM or MW. It's pretty good for WW.
Escape Artist is situational. I don't expect it to see much use in most encounters.
Not sure how Expansive Mind works with mana or energy regen. It could be decent if it improves regen.

Human: 100 versatility rating + Ever Man for Himself (extra PvP trinket)
100 versatility is about .77% increasaed damage and healing. Also, it's .385% reduced damage taken.
Every Man for Himself functions the same way a PvP trinket does to remove most stuns, fears, etc. I don't see it getting extensive use in a raid environment.

Draenei: 65 int and agi + Gift of the Naaru (20% health over 5 seconds)
The increase to int and agi doesn't scale as well as the other bonuses. This bonus will be strongest compared to the other racials when you have crap for gear.
Gift of the Naaru is a great healing CD. I see this being fairly useful in a raiding environment.

Pandaren: Double the benefit from food + Quaking Palm (4 second incapicitate)
Double food benefit meant a lot more in MoP, where agi was far better than your secondary stats. It doesn't scale particularly well. Unlike the other racials, it is fully customizable. You can choose which stat food that you want to receive double effect from. Very good if you switch specs often. Useless if you don't have a food buff.
Quaking Palm is mostly useless in raids. It doesn't work against most bosses. It doesn't even work against some adds on boss fights.

Night Elf: Increases dodge and movement speed by 2% + 1% haste during the night and 1% crit during the day
Increased dodge and movement speed makes them the best BrM race. Dodge is useless for MWs and WWs for the most part. Not sure if the 2% movement speed increase stacks with WW's native movement speed increase.
Most people raid at night (crit bonus starts at 6am server time and haste bonus at 6pm server time), so you're more likely to get haste than crit. Haste isn't great for BrM or MW, but it's pretty good for WW.


Horde:
Troll: Berserking (+15% haste for 10 seconds) + 10% of total out oc combat health regen during combat + 15% duration reduction on all movement impairing effects.
Mini-Bloodlust is a nice perk. Haste is kind of meh for MW and BrM. Not bad for WWs.
Health regen is marginal, but a little persistent healing for tanks is never a bad thing.
15% reduced duration on movement impairing effects is situational. Not going to see much benefit in a raid.

Undead: Touch of the Grave (Passive that has a chance to deal a small amount of shadow damage whenever you deal damage. The damage you deal, you receive as healing) + Will of the Forsaken (weak version of a PvP trinket)
Touch of the grave does nothing if you aren't doing damage. Not super useful for MWs.
Will of the Forsaken will see limited usefulness in raids.

Blood Elf: 1% critical strike chance + Arcane Torrent
Crit is a decent stat for all specs. Good if you're switching specs a lot.
Arcane torrent is pretty good. AoE silence has limited use in a raid, but the Chi or Mana that you get from it is always a nice benefit.

Tauren: Critical strike damage and healing increased by 2% + 197 stamina + War Stomp (AoE Stun)
See Dwarf for explination of crit strike damage.
Stamina is useless for WW and MW. It's not useless for BrMs, but Stam has never been a huge effective health stat for BrMs, so some of the other bonuses are better.
War Stomp has limited use in raids. Lots of Bosses and adds aren't effected by War Stomp.

Orc: Blood Fury (Increases attack power and spell power by 345 for 15 seconds) + 10% reduced stun duration + 1% increased pet damage
Blood Fury doesn't scale well. Good early in the expansion. Not so great at the end.
Reduced stun duration is of limited use.
I don't beleive Xuen is considered a pet for the purposes of this racial. Not sure how SEF clones are counted toward this bonus.

Pandaren: refer to the alliance version of Pandaren. The racials are the same.

Wow so orcs arent a good monk rank? So if one was interested in PvP mainly, but also high end PvE and played Horde... what would yall suggest...? UD? Troll? is ToTG really .35%? that low? Troll or blef? Im confused now which would min/max best in a pvp/even pve situation. is blood fury that bad?

BE is probably best for that huh.... 1% crit is good for pve and pvp. the aoe silence is good in pvp, silence is more rare now. and that xtra chi can be cool. interesting what 1%crit did for be racials..... would of never considered them to be better than orc or ud at pve or pvp. O.o

[Jocias]

Wow so orcs arent a good monk rank? So if one was interested in PvP mainly, but also high end PvE and played Horde... what would yall suggest...? UD? Troll? is ToTG really .35%? that low? Troll or blef? Im confused now which would min/max best in a pvp/even pve situation. is blood fury that bad?

What spec are you looking at? A good all-around Horde race for all specs for both PvE and PvP would be BElf. Crit isn't the best stat for any spec, but it it's far from the worst for any spec, either. Arcane Torrent is good in both PvE and PvP for all specs.

Regardless of what you choose, the difference in damage will be so minimal as to have virtually no effect. If you PvP, take into account the racials that aren't DPS centric like UDs Will, BElf's Arcane Torrent, Tauren's AoE stun, and Panda's 4 sec incapacitate.

[Vexfu]

Sorry, Windwalker primarily, though I do play mw as well. Exactly, I tend to look at it from a pvp perspective.... So Im curious as to if minimal healing and a nerfed 3min wotf is better than arcane torrent silence+chi.... I havent had much beta pvp experience with silence, fear and all these changes, so to ask a more specific question.... What feels more beneficial for horde racials for ww pvp in 6.0+WoD?!?!

[rijn dael]

Wow so orcs arent a good monk rank? So if one was interested in PvP mainly, but also high end PvE and played Horde... what would yall suggest...? UD? Troll? is ToTG really .35%? that low? Troll or blef? Im confused now which would min/max best in a pvp/even pve situation. is blood fury that bad?

BE is probably best for that huh.... 1% crit is good for pve and pvp. the aoe silence is good in pvp, silence is more rare now. and that xtra chi can be cool. interesting what 1%crit did for be racials..... would of never considered them to be better than orc or ud at pve or pvp. O.o

Sorry, I didn't do the horde races as I am playing alliance this expac - here is everything:

No racial = 44310
Tauren = 44705
Undead = 44462
Troll = 44701
Orc = 44698
Belf = 44611
gnome = 44719
dwarf = 44651
nelf = 44658 (haste I think, although it is confusing because base energy/sec = 11.23, simc nelf is 11.31 and simc goblin is 11.36)
human = 44625
draenei = 44695
panda = 44446
*Goblin/Worgen can't be monks.

So they are all pretty close too, although seeing how troll is on top without berserk optimisation I would say in practice it is still the best race when you optimise cooldown usage for a given fight length.

[Enpoli]

For PvE Alliance, I would say Night Elf all the way. Best tank race, still competitive dps perk, shadowmeld is cool, and movement speed is always nicer than it sounds on paper. Human if you pvp, no question.

For Horde, I always feel like on-use racials are stronger than passive racials if they're timed well, so Orc and Troll are high on my list. Tauren is nice for the extra hp (staying alive and more ToD damage), aoe stun, and the amp isn't going to be terrible. Belf looks good too with crit (good stat for all specs), Arcane torrent is nice in pve and pvp.

None of them are going to matter much at all. Pick whatever you like, or focus more on non-dps perks.

[Jocias]

Just to reorder rijn's sims. I haven't run sims for racials, so these aren't my numbers.

From best to worst:
Ally:
gnome = 44719
draenei = 44695
nelf = 44658
dwarf = 44651
human = 44625
panda = 44446

Horde:
Tauren = 44705
Troll = 44701
Orc = 44698
Belf = 44611
Undead = 44462
panda = 44446

(44719-44446) / ((44719+44446) / 2) = 0.006

Based on these numbers, there's a .6% difference between Gnomes (the highest DPS) and Pandas (the lowest DPS). Assuming those numbers are right (I haven't tested them, but they sound about right), that just backs up my assertion that which race you choose is almost completely irrelevant for WW in PvE. BrM mains on the Alliance side would be doing themselves a disservice by not being NElf. Other than that, Draenei might have a slight advantage for MWs because of Gift of the Naaru. Other than that, all the races are pretty close to being even as far as racials go.

[Rockets]

Im wondering if that Panda sim is right? Which food buff did that use? Eating flat agi food they should be closer if not above the draenei

There isn't any agi food in WoD. It's stamina or secondaries only.

I think food can be obtained up to 75?

They buffed all the best foods to 100 (150 for stamina) in the most recent beta patch. You can see the full list of new food here. Note that the feasts only go up to 75, so once again pandaren have to shell out for the most expensive food to get full benefit from their racial.

[rijn dael]

They buffed all the best foods to 100 (150 for stamina) in the most recent beta patch.

Hm, with 100 secondary food, that would put monk around 44600, which reduces the gap for all races to an incredibly tight margin. At least for the first tier, their racial balancing seems pretty damn good.

Btw, I am suspicious of the gnome dps number - it should be equal to a nelf during the day, but it is simming higher and I am not quite sure why - it even has different energy regen rates in the sim. Worst case isn't going to change much, although it would probably make draenei top for the first tier.

[siccora]

take gnom, they are superfunny now