[Prot] WoD/Legion Alpha Discussion

[Deleted]

Noticed the seraphim nerf isnt in the latest PTR patchnotes.. wonder why

I hope that it isn't there, as they will buff it back once BRF hits.

( One can hope, right? >.> )

[MerinPally]

lol I just fixed my Simcraft and went through it going "yeah I understand what this does" and fine tuned a few things. Run a sim. Comes out worse than before. Multistrike is my best stat several times more valuable, only behind Bonus Armour, Armour, Strength and Stamina.

I'm gona do my own thing and stack MS, you guys are clearly all behind the meta. The sim would never lie to me and I couldn't have possibly made a mistake.


But seriously what the fuck I feel retarded using this program. I can synthesise drugs, I'm a pretty damn good chemist, and I can run damn quickly over long distance - but running a simple simulation for a video game character is beyond me

[gramz]

I hope that it isn't there, as they will buff it back once BRF hits.

( One can hope, right? >.> )

one can dream

[Theck]

In other news, I ran some sims with Empowered Seals the other day. Here are the results:

Doing some quick tests with Empowered Seals post-SoT-nerf.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/62d8am975w...ests.html?dl=0



In this sim, I'm switching up with buffs we're maintaining. ES_SoR, ES_SoI, and ES_SoT just sit in their respective seals with no twisting. ES_IR twists insight and righteousness, ES_IT insight and truth, ES_TR truth and righteousness.
ES_3seals twists all three (usual APL).

SoI is still the TMI winner, but IR is a close second. As such, there does not appear to be a survivability benefit to twisting all three seals.

SoR is the DPS winner, meaning there's little point in twisting all three seals for DPS.

The only niche the 3-seal actor appears to inhabit is that it's still a pretty good compromise between DPS and survival, but ES_IR isn't really that much less efficient. I suspect that in practice you're actually better off using SoI and SoR and just letting insight drop off while not tanking anything to boost DPS.

TLDR: I think 3-seal twisting is gone.

In addition, I went back and ran two talent sims with ES included. The first twists all 3 seals:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ssukln88af..._es3.html?dl=0


As you can see, 3-seal twisting is mostly useless. Can't keep up with either HS or Sera in DPS or TMI. Don't really see the point.

The second one has actors twisting just IR (ES_SW, ES_HA, ES_DP) and two additional actors that just use a single seal (ES_HA_SoR and ES_HA_SoI). For fairness I've also added an actor that sits in SoR with Seraphim (Sera_HA_SoR) and Holy Shield (HS_HA_SoR).

https://www.dropbox.com/s/8ha6b4mlzv..._es2.html?dl=0


IR twisting isn't really a whole lot better, though at least it isn't as significant a TMI loss. But again, there seems to be little point in using them. It might be a slight DPS increase over HS if you're only tanking half the time, but Sera would still be hands-down better.

ES_HA_SoI sits in SoI, and gives you roughly the same survivability as Sera, but at a huge DPS loss. Again, why bother.
ES_HA_SoR is barely ahead of Sera_HA in DPS, and costs a huge chunk of survivability. I don't really see that ever being a trade worth making, as if you're willing to give up that survivability you'd be willing to give up a little more and just sit in SoR with HS or Sera for even more damage.

As a final thought, let's assume we alternate between IR (tanking) and R (off-tanking), we can estimate the results as the average of ES_HA_SoR (23088 DPS, 110k TMI) and ES_HA (20904 DPS, 102k TMI). TMI would still be the smaller of the two (irrelevant while not tanking), so we'd get an actor doing around 21996 DPS on average with 102k TMI. This is still worse than HS_HA or Sera_HA (even with the usual caveat about HS's damage being an over-estimate).

TLDR: There doesn't seem to be any configuration in which Empowered Seals is worth using right now.

[celinamuna]

TLDR: There doesn't seem to be any configuration in which Empowered Seals is worth using right now.

But it has +50 to the fun factor :'(

[Theck]

But seriously what the fuck I feel retarded using this program. I can synthesise drugs, I'm a pretty damn good chemist, and I can run damn quickly over long distance - but running a simple simulation for a video game character is beyond me

Psh. Chemists.

More seriously, can you upload the report somewhere so we can look at it? I can probably glance over it this evening and tell you what's happening.

- - - Updated - - -

But it has +50 to the fun factor :'(

Can't tell if serious...

To be fair, I think juggling 3 seals isn't that fun, but I think juggling two would be manageable. Part of the reason I dislike ES so much is that I don't like prioritizing a seal over a button that does damage. Pressing a button that actually damages the boss just feels more visceral in a weird way. Completely nonsensical from a "final results" point of view, I know, but that's game design for you.

I think you could have a discussion about whether paladins enjoy SotR more than warriors enjoy Shield Block for the same reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Clear solution: Empowered Seals causes a holy libram to fall from the sky and smite your target for X damage every time you cast a seal.

[celinamuna]

Can't tell if serious...

To be fair, I think juggling 3 seals isn't that fun, but I think juggling two would be manageable. Part of the reason I dislike ES so much is that I don't like prioritizing a seal over a button that does damage. Pressing a button that actually damages the boss just feels more visceral in a weird way. Completely nonsensical from a "final results" point of view, I know, but that's game design for you.

I think you could have a discussion about whether paladins enjoy SotR more than warriors enjoy Shield Block for the same reason.

- - - Updated - - -

Clear solution: Empowered Seals causes a holy libram to fall from the sky and smite your target for X damage every time you cast a seal.

I actually am, i enjoyed SoT/SoR ES gameplay with popping into SoI during "oshit" moments.
It made rotation actually require a bit of brain activity (unlike HS) and not doable with a simple timed macro (press CS,J,AS,HW,ConS,SOTR every 0.5 sec in that order)

Granted i'm sure that no one would ever use timed macro so that they could afk and go grab a snack esp on farm content.

[MerinPally]

Psh. Chemists.

More seriously, can you upload the report somewhere so we can look at it? I can probably glance over it this evening and tell you what's happening.

Matlab is an awful thing.

I had to use it in a pretty basic form for an experiment prior to Christmas, did some Cavity Ring Down Spectroscopy (for the non scientists - lasers and shit) and it nearly killed me. I was completely spaced out on these prescription tablets however, so maybe that affected me somewhat. I was meant to have anti-nausea tabs and these ones say "First stage Schizophrenia and Manic Depression" on the leaflet so I wonder if they're trying to let me down gently.

Will have a go later or maybe tomorrow morning, I'm just finishing off some work tonight. Will try and fix it one more time (I refuse to be beaten) then let you see the car crash of results that I generate. Thank you for the offer, will do it first chance I get. You may still be asleep by time I get to it considering I'm in the UK and I'll likely do it tomorrow morning.

[Kheirn]

Part of the reason I dislike ES so much is that I don't like prioritizing a seal over a button that does damage. Pressing a button that actually damages the boss just feels more visceral in a weird way. Completely nonsensical from a "final results" point of view, I know, but that's game design for you.

Take it to the extreme and imagine a class where every ability alters and empowers your autoattacks. Imagine now that this class is grossly overpowered and deals 20% more damage than every other class. On paper it's amazing, but would it be fun to play, despite being so overpowered?

It's fascinating how important it is to actually do something in terms of gameplay.

[celinamuna]

Take it to the extreme and imagine a class where every ability alters and empowers your autoattacks. Imagine now that this class is grossly overpowered and deals 20% more damage than every other class. On paper it's amazing, but would it be fun to play, despite being so overpowered?

It's fascinating how important it is to actually do something in terms of gameplay.

So... basically combat rogues ?

[Kazuchika]

A guildie just got a mythic WF EAE from his highmaul mission.

I hate my life.

[celinamuna]

Did they nerf him or is he really retardedly easy with gear?

The 2nd option.

[Kazuchika]

I think he's easier now because people are catching up in gear. I can only imagine what a shitshow he was day one for guilds that didn't bathe themselves in BMAH loot

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

I got the helm that I already have , from kargath. Last week time I got bracers from koragh and before that I got multistrike mastery cloak or something , worse cloak than what I have. Btw we killed butcher now , took literally 6 tries to kill. Did they nerf him or is he really retardedly easy with gear?

I would presume he is just like any other patchwerk fight: as soon as you have enough gear he is easy, if you don't you'll wipe 100 times waiting for that one attempt that everybody crits a bit more on.

[MerinPally]

That plus just players getting to grips with the fight. I imagine you've killed it a lot more times than the guild I raid with but when we were progressing on heroic butcher recently, the amount of damage people took dropped dramatically from the various attempts to the kill. The required HPS was far lower. I have no idea what people were doing differently as noone noticed anything that changed, I guess it just sorta clicked.

#Multistrike master race

[Masternewt]

I am hoping to snatch some advice for going after Brackenspore mythic.

I am the only paladin in the raid - should I grab Purity or will the increased CD on DP make it not up for every breath I will have to take? We did some tries last week and I decided to use Holy Shield (and toying with either DPurpose or HA), even though I was playing with Seraphim + HA up to here. I feel unglyphed DS and Holy Shield allowed me to barely survive breath if I use Shotr twice during it to mitigate the kicks to the face and was healed to 100%.

But once the swap happens I have 3 stacks of Rot and the add hitting like an ebola, I rarely make it just by depending on Purpose procs and HA wouldn't be up for every turn.

What talent combo would you suggest for max survivability?
If going Seraphim, would you delay it for breath, for add or not at all and just go for max uptime?

I feel very papery here, the DK cotank doesnt even dip from 100% on breaths. Any advice if no other paladins are available (we have one disc priest though) is helpful.

Thanks!!

[Deleted]

I am hoping to snatch some advice for going after Brackenspore mythic.

I am the only paladin in the raid - should I grab Purity or will the increased CD on DP make it not up for every breath I will have to take? We did some tries last week and I decided to use Holy Shield (and toying with either DPurpose or HA), even though I was playing with Seraphim + HA up to here. I feel unglyphed DS and Holy Shield allowed me to barely survive breath if I use Shotr twice during it to mitigate the kicks to the face and was healed to 100%.

But once the swap happens I have 3 stacks of Rot and the add hitting like an ebola, I rarely make it just by depending on Purpose procs and HA wouldn't be up for every turn.

What talent combo would you suggest for max survivability?
If going Seraphim, would you delay it for breath, for add or not at all and just go for max uptime?

I feel very papery here, the DK cotank doesnt even dip from 100% on breaths. Any advice if no other paladins are available (we have one disc priest though) is helpful.

Thanks!!

I used Sera (before nerf) and just did my normal rotation and begged for an external for every breath. I saved my major tank CD's for when I had to tank the add during Infesting Spores cause that shit is real Also keep in mind if the add has 6/7 stacks he is doing 105% faster attack swings with 105% extra damage and might need an external/tank CD for that.

If you do your rotation correctly you'll have either Seraphim or 2 x SotR and DP to use, and ask for Sac or whatever externals you have. The fight is made alot easier for you if you have a disc priest that can pre-stack CoW on you before each breath

[celinamuna]

Looking at logs, realistically the only nerf they needed to do, was to prevent us from using HA during Sera.

This would cut down the "15 seconds of glory" burst that happens with trinkets+sera+armor+HA w/o hurting our sustain/ survivability by such a large margin.

it would result in :
a) other lvl 100 talents being more popular
b) our dps being less dependent on burst
c) some minor pvp prot issues
d) SW/DP seeing more use
e) lowering our dps

bonus points ofc being that e) doesn't fuck us over in CMs nearly as much.

Because (while i'm not the best player) looking at my logs on butcher pre and post nerf :

Pre-nerf (outside of cds) :
http://bit.ly/1BkmGzB

in line with other tank ~77% of the lowest dps

With CDs : http://bit.ly/1ClQc4I

lol



Post nerf (outside of cds):
http://bit.ly/1AudNOl

lol

With CDs: http://bit.ly/1CbscTV

still lol


Post nerf (with cds), but w/o losing initial procs to movement.
http://bit.ly/1Ec0vtJ

lol


Additionally, heaven forbid we get another fight like : XT-002 (heart phase), Spine of Deathwing (tendons), Blackfuse (Shredder) we will absolutely destroy all other tanks, and will get nerfed again.

[Deleted]

bonus points ofc being that e) doesn't fuck us over in CMs nearly as much.

Im glad I got my CM gold already Being able to Seraphim/HA the entire entrance in UBRS, and other similar pulls made life alot easier

[Deleted]

A guildie just got a mythic WF EAE from his highmaul mission.

I hate my life.

I got it on my dk (My 4th alt, The only tank we aren't planning to use in split raids for BRF). How do you think I feel?

Also Lazel, if you used the water strat for butcher, then that was easy in 670 ilvl - the proper way to do the boss was a lot harder, though admittedly it wasn't anything more than a numbers check.