ShadowCraft Discussion Thread

[InfernalDark]

SC suggests using Mark of the Shattered hand on both daggers as sub

Same with assa, hmm.

[Puffah]

Mark of the Shattered Hand appears to perform better at low iLvls, possibly due to the direct damage being higher than what you get from Mark of the Frostwolf at our level of scaling

[thottstation]

How do we turn on gems?

I've gotten the odd 630 heroic dungeon piece with a prismatic gem socket, but my choices of gear only come with 0.0 gem option, and I can't find anything in the Settings tab.

[Puffah]

Shadowcraft has been updated to allow secondary/tertiary/gem customization. I also appear to have lost 490 dps

[Thra]

My profile seems to be working at the moment.

Thanks. I am going to use yours to put my gear in. Damn Oceanic armory.

Edit: mine is working!!! YAY GO TEAM

[Khas]

Shadowcraft has been updated to allow secondary/tertiary/gem customization. I also appear to have lost 490 dps

Sorry for noob question, but is there a way we can change those stats or you simply need to get another piece of same item, which can proc those stats ?

[Puffah]

Sorry for noob question, but is there a way we can change those stats or you simply need to get another piece of same item, which can proc those stats ?

You mean if you can change those stats ingame? No, not as far as I am aware. You'll just need to be lucky with the drops I'm afraid.

[Khas]

You mean if you can change those stats ingame?

YEah, that's what I was thinking.

[mghty]

I'm a subtlety rogue and ShadowCraft is showing MfD to be a +416.4 DPS increase from Anticipation. Also Subterfuge +109.2 over Shadow Focus. Is that right?

I get the Subterfuge increase because of an extended Find Weakness, but MfD? That's also going against Ravenholdt's guide for Sub.

[Slipspace]

I'm a subtlety rogue and ShadowCraft is showing MfD to be a +416.4 DPS increase from Anticipation. Also Subterfuge +109.2 over Shadow Focus. Is that right?

I get the Subterfuge increase because of an extended Find Weakness, but MfD? That's also going against Ravenholdt's guide for Sub.

Well, when used effectively, MfD is a free eviscerate every 60 seconds (2 free eviscerates during shadow reflection). Multistrike being as good as it is at these item levels it's not a stretch at all. You have to be on top of your game though to actually make it worth it. Anticipation just makes the rotation much less punishing.

[mghty]

Perfect. That's exactly what I was looking for. Thanks Slip!

[shaithis]

Anticipation does not appear to be modeled at all currently. Considering that entering Shadow Dance with as many CP as possible (minus what you would gain from Ambuh and a HoT proc) is optimal to maximize both Shadow Reflection and yellow damage during Find Weakness, and the same applying for any time period during which you are coming out of a no-Find-Weakness period with Vanish, there is clearly some modeling that needs to take place to give Anticipation some DPS value. Not to mention that, even if MfD really does have a 2% overall DPS improvement advantage, it is most likely not worth the much less forgiving rotation + more likelihood of falling prey to boss mechanics, oh and lets not forget that forced usage of Feint may make it difficult to prevent losing CP from HoT procs.

[Deleted]

Anticipation does not appear to be modeled at all currently. Considering that entering Shadow Dance with as many CP as possible (minus what you would gain from Ambuh and a HoT proc) is optimal to maximize both Shadow Reflection and yellow damage during Find Weakness, and the same applying for any time period during which you are coming out of a no-Find-Weakness period with Vanish, there is clearly some modeling that needs to take place to give Anticipation some DPS value. Not to mention that, even if MfD really does have a 2% overall DPS improvement advantage, it is most likely not worth the much less forgiving rotation + more likelihood of falling prey to boss mechanics, oh and lets not forget that forced usage of Feint may make it difficult to prevent losing CP from HoT procs.

When I go to ShadowCraft and switch from no talent to Anticipation I get 170 dps increase therefore it is being modeled.

What you are saying sounds to me like you don't want the hassle of playing perfectly with MfD for 100% patchwerk max dps, which is fine for 99% of the playerbase. But you don't need to take it out on shadowcraft with some far fetched accusation against Shadowcraft's talent results.

And moves like Feint don't belong into a max dps patchwerk model, just like rotational difficulty. It's up to the player what to make out of the results and how to prepare for a situation where you have to feint, like having low energy before feinting so you can wait on a HaT proc for example.

[Pathal]

It both is, and isn't modeling Anticipation. With proper play, you would move less then a single Eviscerate per FW. Really. That's all Anticipation is worth to Sub now. Pandemic refresh extensions simplify the rotation greatly, to the point where there's no reason to ever not have 100% uptime of 5CP finishers unless you didn't pool and plan things out.

Combat, Sub and Assassination all share this same modeling problem. With multiple finishers it's hard to quantify exactly how often you can shift a finisher into Deep Insight, or some other mechanic. I don't have a solution right now, I don't have time to figure out a solution right now, but it's something I'm aware of.

So the lack of DPS is actually intentional. Because the talent actually doesn't provide much more than a security net for Sub. The fact that several mechanics like tier bonuses just don't work with anticipation make it even worse.

[Deleted]

im combat and with my current gear and even when i choose highest ilvl gear there is, shadowcraft suggest to use mark of shattered hand enchant for weapons...
Are expensive enchants really this bad ? askmrrobot gives same results,

[FujiwaraTakumi]

im combat and with my current gear and even when i choose highest ilvl gear there is, shadowcraft suggest to use mark of shattered hand enchant for weapons...
Are expensive enchants really this bad ? askmrrobot gives same results,

At low ilvls the value of the flat damage is greater than the gain you'd get from a stat proc (given that secondary stats scale in value with your weapon dps and agi).

EDIT: Just noticed you mentioned that this was the case with high ilvls as well, not sure there...

[Deleted]

This have been covered before - however. With full BIS gear Shadowcraft still shows MoTSH being better than Mark of Warsong (im combat). Several people here says it becomes better with higher gear ilvl.. What ilvl is that? 800..?

[fierydemise]

This have been covered before - however. With full BIS gear Shadowcraft still shows MoTSH being better than Mark of Warsong (im combat). Several people here says it becomes better with higher gear ilvl.. What ilvl is that? 800..?

Doing a quick sim on 2xWarsong vs. 1xWarsong, 1xSH and 2xSH even at mythic gear levels 2xWarsong is dps neutral with 1xSH, 1xWarsong (within dps error on a 10K sim) and 2xSH was <0.5% behind. This is still inconsistent with ShC which reports a dps loss for warsong so I'm going to take a look at the implementations this evening but its not totally off the mark.

The reason for this is while SH doesn't scale with AP it does benefit from % based multipliers in particular BG so the static damage is effectively ~30% higher than for other specs which pushes the break even point back somewhat. Adding to that since average BG multiplier scales with haste (in addition to the standard RPPM haste scaling) SH scales more strongly for combat than it does for most other specs.

[Andarist]

At the moment if I limit the iLVL to 655 in a number of slots the Druid Sootfur set item is being shown as my best option for Combat (though I guess my spec doesn't really matter given the item). I'm not seeing the Rogue tier set suggested at any level.

[PessimiStick]

Upgraded Legendary cape seems to have disappeared from the item list. The iLvl 600 one is still there, but 616 shows "no item" when imported from armory.