Blizzard: "Shamans are fine, STFU"

[Aurora]

So being behind by atleast 10-20% is now their balance goal for Elemental... lol

We're in line with other casters and being 10% behind melee isn't a particular problem given the limitations and perils for their role with most raid designs. The only serious problem for ele and other casters is the hunter situation, I don't believe their damage + access to every buff in the game + strong utility + combined with 100% uptime and complete mobility is viable balance for the game.

[Deleted]

I think a lot of it is attributed to our set bonus to be honest, considering the difference between 665 and 695 is almost identical.

What? No elemental gains about 15% more in 695 relative to 665. The difference as a consequence goes up from 2500 dps in 665 gear to 4800 in 695 gear.

It isnt at all attributed to set bonuses it is even quite the opposite: enhancers set bonuses are a little stronger in BIS gear than elementals set bonus.

[Deleted]

I personally couldn't care less about PVE, but i know there are people that only want to raid and i'm fine that they balance stuff around, but i'm not fine with them completely ignoring PVP in the process!!!!

[miffy23]

I think a lot of it is attributed to our set bonus to be honest, considering the difference between 665 and 695 is almost identical.

That's why i said end of HC not end of Mythic.

[Deleted]

I personally couldn't care less about PVE, but i know there are people that only want to raid and i'm fine that they balance stuff around, but i'm not fine with them completely ignoring PVP in the process!!!!

They are also ignoring PVE for enhancers so welcome to shaman world. Others only have to care about bad mechanics, we need to care about bad mevhanics and low output.

[Gistwiki]

I think a lot of it is attributed to our set bonus to be honest, considering the difference between 665 and 695 is almost identical.

We gain ~11000 dps going from 630 -> 665 & ~12000 dps going from 665 -> 695. We gain ~9% more dps than the first jump for 5 less ilvls in the 2nd jump.

[Menubrea]

What? No elemental gains about 15% more in 695 relative to 665. The difference as a consequence goes up from 2500 dps in 665 gear to 4800 in 695 gear.

It isnt at all attributed to set bonuses it is even quite the opposite: enhancers set bonuses are a little stronger in BIS gear than elementals set bonus.

I'm not saying our damage don't increase, it just doesn't increase much compared to others beyond that. Making me think our set bonus, which looks really damn good, is the main cause of that.

[Qlix]

You're the worlds best ele shaman then since nobody else did.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...man/elemental/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...man/elemental/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...man/elemental/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/ranking/e...man/elemental/

WoL is pretty phased out. Some people still use it but WCL problem tells a better story. With that said, here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Elemental

[Deleted]

We're in line with other casters and being 10% behind melee isn't a particular problem given the limitations and perils for their role with most raid designs. The only serious problem for ele and other casters is the hunter situation, I don't believe their damage + access to every buff in the game + strong utility + combined with 100% uptime and complete mobility is viable balance for the game.

Doubt you're in line with demo warlocks, balance druids and frost mages. They are way higher than melee in actual raiding. Stop spreading bs, pls.

[Qlix]

Doubt you're in line with demo warlocks, balance druids and frost mages. They are way higher than melee in actual raiding. Stop spreading bs, pls.

If you think casters are "way higher than melee in actual raiding" you arent actually raiding with anyone with skill

[jayinjersey]

WoL is pretty phased out. Some people still use it but WCL problem tells a better story. With that said, here: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...spec=Elemental

Really?
WoL is showing more Ele logs than WCL

For Kargath
WOL=158 vs WCL=54


Still...the sample size is abysmal to really make good assumptions.

[Menubrea]

Still...the sample size is abysmal to really make good assumptions.

Probably because not that many Shamans are brought for raids.

[Deleted]

Still...the sample size is abysmal to really make good assumptions.

This is the major, MAJOR point about looking at top 10 of each spec on a Log site and saying that is balance. In those situations, raid composition, fight duration, tactic used, RNG and gear are all just as important, if not much more important, than the class. Saying 'Top Shaman only do 25k, but top X does 30k, Shaman are trash' is pretty useless. ESPECIALLY so in the very first week.

[jayinjersey]

Probably because not that many Shamans are brought for raids.

Ya know....that's a valid point.

If only the BEST shaman are brought to raids, our median data will be screwed.

Hell I know we bring sub-par Mages, hunters and Rogues regularly...evening out the data on the collection sites (our one Rogue has never ranked higher than me (Enh Shaman) in any fight...even all through ToT and SOO...but at least he doesn't use his Personal DR's...so there's that)

[Qlix]

But we dont. Well, we normally dont. We are now. Im so far beyond subpar at the moment (I think i just vommited a little) I shouldnt even be in. You can bet the sample size is much smaller at the moment. (for the record, Im fairly certain we upload to WoL just for comparison sake)

[SenSayNyu]

Probably because of item level filter? /sarcasm

Elemental perfomance is a bit low compared to all casters, but by a small margin so we are competitive from my POV. Problem lies in VERY OP specs like WWs and other outliers.

[Protoman]

From the AMA on the front page


Pretty much all concerns are deflected with 'Muh Tectus!'.

No acknowledgement they dropped the ball on the pruning, no acknowledgement of the clunky mechanics, nothing about the lopsides skill ceiling compared to other classes. Just: We've already did some numbers tuning and that's that. Shamans complete dungeons, so they must be fine!

Well... I think you are exaggerating a bit. They did say that Shaman weren't doing well to begin with, and they got buffs. They seem to hint that Elem looks just fine now for single target, and that Enh seems to be doing OK but they are still looking at raid testing and will tweak if necessary.... while our AOE dps is good, they agree that it shouldn't be a niche or an excuse for poor single target. And from the raid logs I have seen so far, Elem is doing good and mid pack while Enhance is doing poorly and goes down with better gear and more complicated raid mechanics.

It's true that they didn't really go into specifics.... was hoping to hear more about our scaling issues, or stuff like getting some more in depth mechanics. Its a shame that they don't have plans for any revamp.... I wish it was a priority when they started dev on the WoD xpac cause now it will be too late for any real changes.

Most important little tidbit is that he did say that the L45 totem talent tier was "terrible".... so hopefully they will be changing it, like making totemic projection baseline and turn it into a mobility tier and not just more totem talents.

[Deleted]

This is the major, MAJOR point about looking at top 10 of each spec on a Log site and saying that is balance. In those situations, raid composition, fight duration, tactic used, RNG and gear are all just as important, if not much more important, than the class. Saying 'Top Shaman only do 25k, but top X does 30k, Shaman are trash' is pretty useless. ESPECIALLY so in the very first week.

But saying that after several thousand of logs enhancers median dps is 20% behind top DPS, this having backed up eith personal experience and even sims, all indicate that enhancers arr much too weak.

You are an elemental shaman, undoubtly in a much better position after your 20% dps buff. That is the gap enhancers currently have to several other melees: WW, feral, retri. All of them also perform very good in sims.

About 10-14% to the midpack melees sub rogues, DKs, glad warrior and assa rogues.

That is just too much. Raid spots are rareand without any substential buffs, enhancers will die out in mythic raids.

And max dps values also indicate the scaling problems we are seeing.

Enhancement would have needed the same buff elementals got. But eles got a 20% buff, enhancers 4%. Enhancers are literally fucked up right now.

[Deleted]

If you think casters are "way higher than melee in actual raiding" you arent actually raiding with anyone with skill

I raid with people who cleared SoO hc over 1 year ago. Dont tell me anything about skill, please.

[Qlix]

My statement still stands. Melee classes are far and away better than casters right now.

edit: Ok i wont say far and away. But nor are casters far and away higher than melee. theres a mix of glad/feral/ww and MM/Demo/Frost at the top. Pick and choose. Theyre all interchangeable.

and, so do i.