Blizzard: "Shamans are fine, STFU"

[Menubrea]

Ele in mythic gear is in a decent place. The changes to crit gave then half decent scaling. cURRENTLY ELE SUCK YES, AT MYTHIC BASED ON PROJECTINS THEY ARE TOP 7

On The Butcher yes. We look alright on The Butcher currently as well, but take a look at the logs and see how far we fall from any fight that requires movement. It's not going to be much better at Mythic level.

[Manabomb]

But you seem to not understand that that is the hunter niche... mobile dps. I think you may be forgetting the that is a spec decision as well, and they are doing it without a pet since theyre taking Lone Wolf.

I agree MM is a slightly too strong right now, but dont be upset thet they are performing well in their niche.

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and theyre all 555-560

Thank you, hadnt gotten to that one yet.

Honestly, preforming well in their niche and being stacked because their niche and their damage is so great are two different things. If their niche was completely mobile dps they would be lower than casters on fights where everyone can stand there and look like tools, and higher on fights that require mass amounts of movement.

Currently that is not the case as they maintain competitive dps on patchwerk-esque boss(es) and utterly destroy casters on anything that involves mobility beyond what 3 charges of Ice Floes/Starsurge can offer. Perhaps this is to make up for their abysmal cleaving potential, but it's still very much an overpowered class in general to play right now.

On the topic of the thread, I can sympathize with the enh community. Main'd it during SoO and I really enjoyed it, but now doing pretty joke worthy dps compared to my WW monk. Even my feral with 10 item levels less gear has better single target, better cleave and far better burst aoe. Enh has just way too much ramp up and the pitiful damage doesn't compliment it well either.

[Qlix]

Ever since Wotlk, thats not the case. In theory, there should be no hibryd tax anymore. When it comes to balancing, in theory, there should be no difference between enhance, ele, feral, ret, marksman hunter and combat rouge.

I didnt say there IS a hybrid tax. But I have always felt that in some way there still should be, just one mans opinion. A hunter cant heal or tank anything. Theyre there for 1 reason, putting damage on the boss. They realistically dont have any utility other than Fox and being able to soak mechanics others cant (excluding pet buffs, even more so now with Lone Wolf). Their thing is movement. Let em have it. Monks are a much bigger problem than hunter's

[Deleted]

On The Butcher yes. We look alright on The Butcher currently as well, but take a look at the logs and see how far we fall from any fight that requires movement. It's not going to be much better at Mythic level.

But that's really a L2P issue. When you look at those logs, there are those elemental shamans that excel at e.g. Brockenspore. Elementals suffer from a lot of movement and they have to learn how to handle that movement.

On Brackenspore, elementals overall perform weak, but they have an elemental shaman with over 28k dps (best enhancer is 26k). So elementals can still excel at higher skill caps, once everybody learned the encounter, when they have to move and when not (currently on my mage twink, i'm running one or another meter too much).

The problem for enhancer is that they CANT perform on this level because of their numbers, not mechanics. Elementals on the other side CAN perform on this level but it's difficult.

I think top elemental shamans will perform great on most encounters. That's just the opposite to enhancers.

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I didnt say there IS a hybrid tax. But I have always felt that in some way there still should be, just one mans opinion. A hunter cant heal or tank anything. Theyre there for 1 reason, putting damage on the boss. They realistically dont have any utility other than Fox and being able to soak mechanics others cant (excluding pet buffs, even more so now with Lone Wolf). Their thing is movement. Let em have it. Monks are a much bigger problem than hunter's

Enhancers cant do anything else too. Their offhealing has been nerfed by 90% over since 5.1 to not existent, utility is non existent. Hunters mobility is actually a lot of utility as they can take all those special roles. Everywhere you just hear "Let the hunter to this, he doesnt lose damage".

[Menubrea]

But that's really a L2P issue. When you look at those logs, there are those elemental shamans that excel at e.g. Brockenspore. Elementals suffer from a lot of movement and they have to learn how to handle that movement.

On Brackenspore, elementals overall perform weak, but they have an elemental shaman with over 28k dps (best enhancer is 26k). So elementals can still excel at higher skill caps, once everybody learned the encounter, when they have to move and when not (currently on my mage twink, i'm running one or another meter too much).

The problem for enhancer is that they CANT perform on this level because of their numbers, not mechanics. Elementals on the other side CAN perform on this level but it's difficult.

I think top elemental shamans will perform great on most encounters. That's just the opposite to enhancers.

Elemental can do well on Brackenspore if the conditions for our AoE is met: do not move mobs, mobs last long enough to benefit from the full effect of Earthquake. The second condition is easy, the problem is that a lot of the time the mobs need constant re-positioning due to all the mayhem going on. The big parses you see from Elemental Shamans on that fight is where those conditions are met, it's just that those conditions don't really happen all that often. As guilds get more comfortable with the fight though, I'm sure this will be easier to accomplish. Admittedly our sustained AoE DPS is definitely among the best, even if it is incredibly clunky.

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I didnt say there IS a hybrid tax. But I have always felt that in some way there still should be, just one mans opinion. A hunter cant heal or tank anything. Theyre there for 1 reason, putting damage on the boss. They realistically dont have any utility other than Fox and being able to soak mechanics others cant (excluding pet buffs, even more so now with Lone Wolf). Their thing is movement. Let em have it. Monks are a much bigger problem than hunter's

Hybrid tax would be fine if we provided enough hybrid qualities to the table to justify it. That's not currently the case though. Might as well remove our ability to heal altogether and instead improve our survivability elsewhere.

[Qlix]

Enhancers cant do anything else too. Their offhealing has been nerfed by 90% over since 5.1 to not existent, utility is non existent. Hunters mobility is actually a lot of mobility as they can take all those special roles. Everywhere you just hear "Let the hunter to this, he doesnt lose damage".

Our off healing sucks now. But we can still heal in a clutch situation to save ourselves or someone else if we have to. We still have HS, AG, HR, HS. We can still heal. Even if its garbage, its still there. A hunter cant do that. And youre hearing "let the hunter do this, he doesnt do damage" because thats what you should be hearing. Really, im ok with that. Let them do it. Im not gonna complain about another class doing well, bad karma. But its ok to complain when you cant keep up.

[Deleted]

Our off healing sucks now. But we can still heal in a clutch situation to save ourselves or someone else if we have to. We still have HS, AG, HR, HS. We can still heal. Even if its garbage, its still there. A hunter cant do that. And youre hearing "let the hunter do this, he doesnt do damage" because thats what you should be hearing. Really, im ok with that. Let them do it. Im not gonna complain about another class doing well, bad karma. But its ok to complain when you cant keep up.

But to be honest, that hunter has stronger def CDs so he doesnt need it. He is ranged so he usually takes less damage.

No matter what you want to tell me, even if hunters always did the same damage as we do, they'd still be more favorable than enhancers for raids.

And we have healers for heal though. I'm every now and then using my HST, but normally you don't heal your self via MSW selfheals.

[Qlix]

Hybrid tax would be fine if we provided enough hybrid qualities to the table to justify it. That's not currently the case though. Might as well remove our ability to heal altogether and instead improve our survivability elsewhere.

Id be ok with this. Completely.

[Gistwiki]

Elemental can do well on Brackenspore if the conditions for our AoE is met: do not move mobs, mobs last long enough to benefit from the full effect of Earthquake. The second condition is easy, the problem is that a lot of the time the mobs need constant re-positioning due to all the mayhem going on. The big parses you see from Elemental Shamans on that fight is where those conditions are met, it's just that those conditions don't really happen all that often. As guilds get more comfortable with the fight though, I'm sure this will be easier to accomplish. Admittedly our sustained AoE DPS is definitely among the best, even if it is incredibly clunky.

There's no effective AoE on Brackenspore. You're thinking of Tectus. Brackenspore is single-target with some cleave, the occasional add to swap to that're out of melee, and +30% haste cheese.

[Cellaniz]

Regarding Enhance shamans, the thing that increased our damage the most were the CDR trinkets that helped balance our burst out in SoO. In theory, wouldn't a reduction of our Fire Elemental cooldown time make up for alot of single target lost ground that we've experienced so far in this expansion. The passive damage buff to SS and LL wasn't nearly enough and didn't marginally increase our numbers enough to compete with other classes on longer fights. But in my opinion with the previous passive buff and the Fire Ele CD reduction, I feel it would put us in a place where we needed to be.

My other concern is that Blizzard thinks we are doing fine from dungeon results and such but have they ever thought about what occurs behind the numbers they are looking at. Majority of dungeons are run by gathering packs aoe stunning and aoeing them down which I applaud Blizzard for balancing out our AoE this Expansion. The boss encounters in the dungeons are at most 2 minutes and more commonly under a 1:30 seconds. This means unglyphed, our Fire Ele is up 50% - 85% of the time. So we have yet to come down from out initial burst of the fights. In a raid encounter, a fight will go on for 4+ minutes which test the enhances sustainability over long term. My point is, dungeons aren't accurately depicting how our class matches up with others in order for Blizzard to use that as an "excuse" to say Shamans are performing fine.

These are just opinions and loosely stated facts that I gathered from my experiences playing in this tier so far. Feel free to disagree or re-buddle at your will.

[Waylandyr]

But to be honest, that hunter has stronger def CDs so he doesnt need it. He is ranged so he usually takes less damage.

No matter what you want to tell me, even if hunters always did the same damage as we do, they'd still be more favorable than enhancers for raids.

And we have healers for heal though. I'm every now and then using my HST, but normally you don't heal your self via MSW selfheals.

I was pretty much with you until this post klatar. Hunter's most decidedly do NOT have better defensive cd's...Glyphed SR is huge, coupled with Bulwark you can ignore a lot of mechanics and dps through them, and you can't throw out MSW heals when talking about defensive abilities..

If you aren't throwing out MSW heals on yourself during high incoming aoe damage during mythic progression, you are not doing your job. Dead dps = no dps.

That being said, Hybrid tax is a joke. I'm not going to suddenly switch roles during a fight and start healing, so why should I be penalized for having a 3rd spec that takes an entirely different gear setup/talent setup that is healing? Hybrid offhealing is utility, and shouldn't be penalizing.