Is 10M Heroic butcher impossible?

[Radish Spirit]

If you're having trouble with 10, bring more? Blizzard went through the trouble of implementing and tuning Flex difficulty precisely so they didn't have to worry about complaints like this when they were designing fights. All these people and guilds hanging on desperately to the idea that they're "totally a 10 man guild" are just living in the past.

If 10 is hard, bring 14. It's not rocket surgery.

[Polarthief]

If you're having trouble with 10, bring more? Blizzard went through the trouble of implementing and tuning Flex difficulty precisely so they didn't have to worry about complaints like this when they were designing fights. All these people and guilds hanging on desperately to the idea that they're "totally a 10 man guild" are just living in the past.

If 10 is hard, bring 14. It's not rocket surgery.

So if you have 10 with underperforming DPS, why not bring 4 more underperforming DPS, making the gap even wider? GENIUS PLAN.

But yeah, the DPS is low. They need to pick up the slack.

You also have 3 healers for 10 people. Too much healing for a DPS-heavy fight.

[tenaciouzd]

Question regarding the hunter. I have simmed him this is the result:

Heyytix_Active : 17487 dps

Is simc not right for hunters?

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

You only need 17-18k dps if you include tanks, anything below this and you're not geared or skilled (or a combination) to do this boss at the moment. It's in no way, shape or form too hard.

[Hyve]

Butcher is the DPS check of the instance. If you can kill him, you have the DPS to finish all of the other bosses.

Of course, as he is the only target that doesn't take into account how well your DPS play in terms of switching target, but that's down to your DPS performing better in the required situation.

If you bring sub-par DPS, you're going to struggle, the same way if you bring sub-par Healers or Tanks on any other encounter. That's just how raiding is. There are multiple difficulties for a reason, and if you're unable to defeat a certain boss because your team isn't capable, that means you're not capable of doing that content.

[tenaciouzd]

Whoops diregard comment about hunter, forgot I turn all buffs off when I was comparing to a target dummy for myself

Heyytix_Active : 21676 dps

[Lothrik]

Whoops diregard comment about hunter, forgot I turn all buffs off when I was comparing to a target dummy for myself

Heyytix_Active : 21676 dps

That puts him a solid 4K below his SimC numbers. He seems like one of the better performers in your raid and he's under performing by around 20%. Using 1-2 too many healers and having most of your players 20%-30% below their potential output sounds about right considering you've been wiping at 35% or so.

[tenaciouzd]

Sorry, the log I linked is misleading, I updated OP to have the option to disable events after player death

[Deleted]

Your hunter is playing wrong: Never use Barrage single target(its actually worse than no talent) Use Glaive Toss single target. At that Ilvl he really should be doing about 20-21k. He needs to max his spell usage better.

This is flat out wrong. For single target damage Barrage sims VERY SLIGHTLY behind Glaive Toss. The difference is less than a quarter of a percent.

Barrage is not the reason for his poor damage.

[JV Chequer]

This is flat out wrong. For single target damage Barrage sims VERY SLIGHTLY behind Glaive Toss. The difference is less than a quarter of a percent.

Barrage is not the reason for his poor damage.

Every poor dps it's a group of bad individual choices and raid choiches, that is one of the package.

[Deleted]

16,5k dps per a dps is just bad, as long as your raiders are actually geared for this fight. If they are above 635 you shoul expect them to deal over 20k on this fight.

Some specs don't even sim that high in 635 gear.

[Deleted]

The thing is that with every extra person in the raid, the boss scales up too. So while the healing might have been easier, the dps would have needed to really pump out of extra juice if you wanted to kill it.

What probably wont work as i dont think the dps are better than the healers.

The target value should be 1 healer per 5m, so 2 healers for 10m + your dps should be averaging over 19k (AVERAGE probably means some have to be over 20k).

IT looks to me like neither dps nor healers are good enough for heroic butcher. It probably is a skill issue (using heroism at the start is just a big mistake) and a gear issue in addition.

[Dracodraco]

Some specs don't even sim that high in 635 gear.

So? Heroic isn't tuned for 635. It's tuned for +650.

[vareck]

My guild is also having problems with H butcher. Our best attempt with 30 was 8%~ and we definitely have dps underperforming. Anybody familiar with other classes care to look at some logs for faults? Try 7 was when we got him lowest. Thanks.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...ses&boss=77404

[Dracodraco]

My guild is also having problems with H butcher. Our best attempt with 30 was 8%~ and we definitely have dps underperforming. Anybody familiar with other classes care to look at some logs for faults? Try 7 was when we got him lowest. Thanks.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...ses&boss=77404

Ergh, WoL. Use Warcraftlogs, please :<.
JimmytheBMhunter should just go MM for singletarget, up his dps by 3K or so.

Generally, though, you're doing allright. Just need to avoid people dying. Need to squeeze out 50K sustained raid DPS more. Tell your spriest and ret to shape up, both can get 20K with 635-640 ilvl which they should have, that's another 20K raid dps on top of 400K, get another 10K by not having raid dead prior to enrage, etc etc...

[Deleted]

Tell your mage to go Ice Nova > unstable magic. Also He needs to use his prismatic more, he's using it at around 50% atm. He hasn't used his water jet (water elemental) once.
He's playing terribly inefficiently atm, could easlily do 19k with these changes.

I wouldn't be surprised if most of your raid is playing poorly. see if you can get some other classes to look at the logs and point out major mistakes being made.

Unstable Magic is shit. IN for single or frostbomb

[Deleted]

So? Heroic isn't tuned for 635. It's tuned for +650.

What does that have to do with what anything? I'm just saying that at 635 ilevel you can't expect all specs to do 20k+ dps.

[Dracodraco]

What does that have to do with what anything? I'm just saying that at 635 ilevel you can't expect all specs to do 20k+ dps.

...Did you forget what we are talking about halfway through or something? Let me bring you back up to speed:

1: People have issues killing a boss on heroic.
2: Other people explain to them that it's a DPS issue, and that everyone should be doing an average of 19-20K to reach the enrage.
3: You say that some specs don't sim that high in 635 gear.
4: I point out that it's irrelevant, because the instance is tuned for 650 average.

Essentially, if they aren't able to bring the numbers, then they have to gear up. If their raiders can't reach 19K average dps, then the only two options are more gear or getting better. It's not too tightly tuned in any way, what so ever - people generally just don't get as much damage out as they can. If you can't expect all specs to do 20K dps at 635 ilvl, then you also can't expect the boss to be killed by everyone in 635 ilvl.

[cityguy193]

Dps and heals both need to pick it up. The place is tuned for 655 ilevel, so obv some specs cant actually reach the 20k dps+ needed atm. Thats okay, that just means clear normals for 1-2 weeks and get a higher ilevel. If you want your raid to clear it, then farm the trash for a day, and get everyone in your raid a 670 cloak BOE. Encourage your raiders to have 640 crafted gear slotted etc.

If not, then tell that mistweaver to sit in crane stance and dps the boss. Hopefully the ~8k dps he can bring can offset the dps check a little more, while having revival when needed. Its possible with the numbers.

Healing is very tight on this boss. I killed it yesterday, and every healer ranked on world stats from the kill. You are looking at 35k hps average.

[vareck]

Ergh, WoL. Use Warcraftlogs, please :<.
JimmytheBMhunter should just go MM for singletarget, up his dps by 3K or so.

Generally, though, you're doing allright. Just need to avoid people dying. Need to squeeze out 50K sustained raid DPS more. Tell your spriest and ret to shape up, both can get 20K with 635-640 ilvl which they should have, that's another 20K raid dps on top of 400K, get another 10K by not having raid dead prior to enrage, etc etc...

The spriest's dps is usually alright, him dying with dots ticking brought his dps in WoL down by a good bit on try 7. Other times he was the mobile dps with our melee stack group. Definitely agree with the hunter and rets though. Anyone else have some class-specific advice to throw in?