Is 10M Heroic butcher impossible?

[cityguy193]

The spriest's dps is usually alright, him dying with dots ticking brought his dps in WoL down by a good bit on try 7. Other times he was the mobile dps with our melee stack group. Definitely agree with the hunter and rets though. Anyone else have some class-specific advice to throw in?

your mistweaver isnt using uplift.... at all.

I havent had a 10M group, so maybe the group size is too small for uplift to be effective, but that is something to atleast try out. Its the bread and butter of the spec, at this point he is basically a green, less effective paladin.
Ill link a log of my kill as a mistweaver. I normally do around 37k hps, but I actually had to DPS the boss because the enrage timer was so tight, my hps is lower for the trade off of 4k passive dps. It actually made the difference on the fight because we only had a few people standing after he enraged. Squeeze out dps from everyone, every source.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...8&e=1754#Veeps


Also in the final minute, you can gain an extra 30 seconds after the butcher enrages. Coordinate with your hunters to taunt + feign death from across the room. Have all your range spread out so he needs to walk over a greater distance to kill, etc. You can get away with 18k dps, instead of 20k dps

Edit: This was in a pug raid btw, the fight is doable.

[Deleted]

...Did you forget what we are talking about halfway through or something? Let me bring you back up to speed:

1: People have issues killing a boss on heroic.
2: Other people explain to them that it's a DPS issue, and that everyone should be doing an average of 19-20K to reach the enrage.
3: You say that some specs don't sim that high in 635 gear.
4: I point out that it's irrelevant, because the instance is tuned for 650 average.

Essentially, if they aren't able to bring the numbers, then they have to gear up. If their raiders can't reach 19K average dps, then the only two options are more gear or getting better. It's not too tightly tuned in any way, what so ever - people generally just don't get as much damage out as they can. If you can't expect all specs to do 20K dps at 635 ilvl, then you also can't expect the boss to be killed by everyone in 635 ilvl.

That still has nothing to do with anything I said or the person I responded to. He said at 635 ilvl you should be able to do 20k+ dps, I pointed out that's not realistic for every spec. That's all.

[MrExcelion]

If there's one thing to remember about the flex system, it's that they intend it to work for all group sizes between 10 to 30 and to be more social raiding, so the tuning tends to be very loose in that they start with a base encounter at 10, and adding more players outscales the damage requirements. They can't perfectly tune it for all group sizes, so naturally some sizes will be easier than others. Granted, you shouldn't fill the raid with undergeared players, but you will find that it's tighter at smaller group sizes.

It's also worth mentioning that fight was the biggest gearcheck out of the first 4 heroic bosses we did [with 30 players]

Disclaimer: It was like this for SoO, but if it's changed for T17 feel free to correct me. Should be able to discern what the DPS requirements are with 10 vs 30 on a fight like the Butcher, and I'd love to see what the difference is at the two extremes.

[cityguy193]

If there's one thing to remember about the flex system, it's that they intend it to work for all group sizes between 10 to 30 and to be more social raiding, so the tuning tends to be very loose in that they start with a base encounter at 10, and adding more players outscales the damage requirements. They can't perfectly tune it for all group sizes, so naturally some sizes will be easier than others. Granted, you shouldn't fill the raid with undergeared players, but you will find that it's tighter at smaller group sizes.

It's also worth mentioning that fight was the biggest gearcheck out of the first 4 heroic bosses we did [with 30 players]

Disclaimer: It was like this for SoO, but if it's changed for T17 feel free to correct me. Should be able to discern what the DPS requirements are with 10 vs 30 on a fight like the Butcher

this is 100% untrue.

[vareck]

your mistweaver isnt using uplift.... at all.

I havent had a 10M group, so maybe the group size is too small for uplift to be effective, but that is something to atleast try out. Its the bread and butter of the spec, at this point he is basically a green, less effective paladin.
Ill link a log of my kill as a mistweaver. I normally do around 37k hps, but I actually had to DPS the boss because the enrage timer was so tight, my hps is lower for the trade off of 4k passive dps. It actually made the difference on the fight because we only had a few people standing after he enraged. Squeeze out dps from everyone, every source.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...8&e=1754#Veeps


Also in the final minute, you can gain an extra 30 seconds after the butcher enrages. Coordinate with your hunters to taunt + feign death from across the room. Have all your range spread out so he needs to walk over a greater distance to kill, etc. You can get away with 18k dps, instead of 20k dps

Edit: This was in a pug raid btw, the fight is doable.

I think you're confused here matey. You quoted me, and I am linking to a log not in the OP: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/e...ses&boss=77404
I am not associated with the OP, and my group does not even have a mistweaver. We're a 30man.

[MrExcelion]

this is 100% untrue.

Good to hear, was looking to be corrected. Can you provide the DPS requirements at the two extremes [10 and 30]? Is it exactly the same? Thanks, much appreciated

[cityguy193]

Good to hear, was looking to be corrected. Can you provide the DPS requirements at the two extremes [10 and 30]? Is it exactly the same? Thanks, much appreciated

I did about ~30 attempts in a heroic pug butcher raid yesterday.

We first started off with 25 people, we calculated (yes actually calculated) that every dps needed to pull out 20k dps. We started wiping at around 35%. We then took the cream of the crop of dps, cut out the lowest healer and tried again with 19 people. It was also 20k dps. The fight did feel more punishing, but overall, it didnt change any requirements.

The only thing that matters for a dps check is the healer to dps ratio. We figured out that 1/4 of the raid being healers was prob the best way to do it, we cut out a few more people, got a few more people and tried about 15 more times with 16 people. In the end, our dps came out to an average of 19k dps, and we only succeeded because we spread out after he berserked, and the 30 seconds it took him to run around killing everyone was enough to down him. We nearly wiped with only 19k average, so the dps check is actually that tight.

If you look at the linked log, you will see that that made me as a healer also dps throughout the fight. I brought in 12k dps on my own in the first 2 minutes which made the difference as well. In all honestly, I think the dps check is actually at 21k dps.

This is personal experience. Its not as extreme from 10-30, but its somewhat close, 25 to 16.

[MrExcelion]

25 -> 19 shouldn't be much, talking more 30 -> 10 at the extremes. We should be able to calculate the average DPS if we get the bosses health pool from 10 and 30 then divide by the amount of DPS brought. Anyone have a 30m and 10m Butcher health pool offhand?

[I ask this mostly because I'm just curious and the OP is running with 10 players]

[cityguy193]

25 -> 19 shouldn't be much, talking more 30 -> 10 at the extremes. We should be able to calculate the average DPS if we get the bosses health pool from 10 and 30 then divide by the amount of DPS brought. Anyone have a 30m and 10m Butcher health pool offhand?

If you maintain the same ratio of dps to healers, the dps will come out to the exact same every time.

[Maxweii]

Avg DPS from 5 dps = 18118
Avg Heals from 3 healers = 30,817

Best pull 36%

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...pes=1&cutoff=1

Any input appreciated.

The Unholy DK is pretty low for 637 ilvl, can't bring up his armory so can't see what his stats are like unfortunatly.
He used a Shieldtronic Shield, used Death Strike, missed a PL use. He's doing between 2-5k under what he should be doing. I know he died early, so not as much SR damage in which makes up a lot of our damage, but he shouldn't be that low regardless.

[bmjclark]

My group did it with less than 20 seconds left on the enrage with our average dps being about 20.5k on 20 man. Your dps is simply too low.

[Tavin]

Judging by what and how often the hunter and mage uses their spells theres a hole lot of L2P involved here. They dont know their proper rotation/priority list. I did 24k dps (25ih ppl, but shouldnt matter too much) on butcher with my mage which is my 3rd char.

[Libertarian]

Our logs are fucked up but I was just shy of 20k dps on a mage, I never play, with 630 heroic gear+ragnaros helm+680 ring. So someone in actual normal gear, and heroic gear from tectus and brackenspore should easily be able to push near 24k+ on a 5 minute fight. If they're not doing that, it's simple a L2P problem. Get them on these forums and the dummies to figure it out.

[IxilaFA]

Trim your healers down to 2, stack the buff only up to 2 or 3 and the DPS check will be easier. Sadly this is a fight that is almost 100% on your healers. But if they are struggling to underheal things at Butcher, theyre going to be ill prepared for fights like Imperative, who have very strict DPS checks.

[MrExcelion]

If you maintain the same ratio of dps to healers, the dps will come out to the exact same every time.

Alright ty, /bow

[spanishninja]

The Unholy DK is pretty low for 637 ilvl, can't bring up his armory so can't see what his stats are like unfortunatly.
He used a Shieldtronic Shield, used Death Strike, missed a PL use. He's doing between 2-5k under what he should be doing. I know he died early, so not as much SR damage in which makes up a lot of our damage, but he shouldn't be that low regardless.

On a similar note, is the fight designed so that DPS must use things like death strike to keep from dying? I've done some heroic butcher in semi-organized runs that made it up to 6/7 normal, but as an unholy DK I kept dying to cleave. If this happens could it help to have some of the ranged dps stack with the melee clumps as well to decrease the size of the cleave hits each individual person takes? I know that fatboss suggested something like that but I'm not sure if that's the optimal strategy or just an alternative.

[Maxweii]

On a similar note, is the fight designed so that DPS must use things like death strike to keep from dying? I've done some heroic butcher in semi-organized runs that made it up to 6/7 normal, but as an unholy DK I kept dying to cleave. If this happens could it help to have some of the ranged dps stack with the melee clumps as well to decrease the size of the cleave hits each individual person takes? I know that fatboss suggested something like that but I'm not sure if that's the optimal strategy or just an alternative.

The only things I ever did to help myself survive on it was use Lichborne (which used twice in the fight did a whopping 25k healing, better then nothing but nothing amazing), IBF, and Death Pact. We did it with 30 but each clump had something like 5-6 melee with a hunter running in/out to trigger the cleaves.
There's only two reasons you would be dieing to cleave. One, your group took too many stacks and insta-died. Or two, your healers don't have enough throughput. No real reason at all to use something that directly affects your dps even if it's for the sake of survivability, because this fight is a DPS check over anything.