Single target log results

[FurtyIRL]

I honestly hope that every bleeding edge guild does Mythic with every class except warlock. I know I wouldn't judge them. Maybe then Blizz would notice. Then again....

The general misconception is that top guilds sit lower spectrum classes. In reality it's the opposite; mediocre guilds tend to sit classes that are a little under the average because they tend to exaggerate just how bad those classes are. Prime example; Paragon did progression last tier with a Guardian Druid. Yes, we're not going to bring 3 or 4 low tier classes to the main raid, and yes, if you want to reroll fotm for the tier and it fits the raid, all the power to you. However, when it really comes down to it, it has always been a case of the player not the class in any top end guild I've been in. If you're good enough, you'll always have a raid slot.

[Jessicka]

It's like they see other classes with 1 spec being king and the others being rettible and they think warlocks are ok because all their specs are equaly bellow average

The thing is, that their stated message, which the numbers changes actually reflect, is that they want to bring specs up to the top line, not bring the top line down. In that respect, being "average" at this point can only mean that long term, as others are lifted, that Warlocks are left behind to under-perform.

[Rayaleith]

I really cannot understand the super locks that hide their loss logic. The same apply to other super<class> that hide their logs and play better than the public ones. I hope you are not implying that ONLY locks have higher hidden parses

[Hellrime]

Tell me more about how Ret, Feral, WW, and Unholy are balanced.

Why did you include Unholy in that statement? From the average logs Unholy DKs are parsing lower than the other classes, or are you talking about PvP on a fucking PvE thread? We get it, in Season 5 DKs took your candy away but it hasn't been that way in a long time so get over it.

[kamuii]

If this is true, then how do you explain this?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...t=90&boss=1706

Lets see

#1 Monk, #2 druid, #3 pally, #4 hunter, #5 rogue, #6 priest, #7 warrior, #8 warlock

8th/11 classes. pre-mage/ele buff.

last time I check 5th-6th = average out of 11 classes

Apparently 8= average out of 11 now. Heh.

[Deleted]

The general misconception is that top guilds sit lower spectrum classes. In reality it's the opposite; mediocre guilds tend to sit classes that are a little under the average because they tend to exaggerate just how bad those classes are. Prime example; Paragon did progression last tier with a Guardian Druid. Yes, we're not going to bring 3 or 4 low tier classes to the main raid, and yes, if you want to reroll fotm for the tier and it fits the raid, all the power to you. However, when it really comes down to it, it has always been a case of the player not the class in any top end guild I've been in. If you're good enough, you'll always have a raid slot.

Wow, I agree.
Wait...
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...f_killshot.jpg
What's this? :O

[kamuii]

The general misconception is that top guilds sit lower spectrum classes. In reality it's the opposite; mediocre guilds tend to sit classes that are a little under the average because they tend to exaggerate just how bad those classes are. Prime example; Paragon did progression last tier with a Guardian Druid.

Prime example top end guilds stacked rogues and arcane mages for spine in dragon soul. Let's all make claims and state it as fact because there's 1 example supporting it. Logic.

[FurtyIRL]

Wow, I agree.
Wait...
http://media.mmo-champion.com/images...f_killshot.jpg
What's this? :O

Prime example top end guilds stacked rogues and arcane mages for spine in dragon soul. Let's all make claims and state it as fact because there's 1 example supporting it. Logic.

There's definitely outliers, and specific fights, and this was a lot more true in past expansions, like Starz stacking 14 affliction locks for Yogg 0. I'm talking about across the tier as a whole. That same tier locks were one of the weakest if not the weakest ranged dps and they were only stacked to game a mechanic.

My point being that very rarely are mains told to reroll or not see playtime unless there are multiple players of the same class and the class is absolutely not viable. How is there 1 example? Look at any top 5 US or EU guild from nearly any fight in MoP, are you for real?

[kamuii]

My point being that very rarely are mains told to reroll or not see playtime unless there are multiple players of the same class and the class is absolutely not viable. How is there 1 example? Look at any top 5 US or EU guild from nearly any fight in MoP, are you for real?

Very rarely? Did you go to a bunch of top end guilds then ask whether they ask their players to reroll? Last time I check paragon and method both ask their players to level up multiple classes so they can switch between them in case their class is shit or the fight needs another class stack.

I know blood runs cold and modest both do the same as well.

I'm not going to say it's not "rare". I don't have data to make a statistical claim. However once again you have made claims with no source to back it.

Sure, overall probly not all the casual guilds and etc ask players to switch, in fact they may not have the luxury to ask that.

However it's questionable whether top end guilds do it often. It will remain questionable until proven otherwise.

[FurtyIRL]

Very rarely? Did you go to a bunch of top end guilds then ask whether they ask their players to reroll? Last time I check paragon and method both ask their players to level up multiple classes so they can switch between them in case their class is shit or the fight needs another class stack.

I know blood runs cold and modest both do the same as well.

I'm not going to say it's not "rare". I don't have data to make a statistical claim. However once again you have made claims with no source to back it.

Sure, overall probly not all the casual guilds and etc ask players to switch, in fact they may not have the luxury to ask that.

However it's questionable whether top end guilds do it often. It will remain questionable until proven otherwise.

Do you not see my signature or my armory link? I'm telling you from first hand experience. Guilds aren't going to drop their warlocks because they're middle of the pack. Stop acting like an asshat.

[Deleted]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

updated, now only 19 specs above best warlock spec

[kamuii]

Do you not see my signature or my armory link? I'm telling you from first hand experience. Guilds aren't going to drop their warlocks because they're middle of the pack. Stop acting like an asshat.

I do see your armory link, and I'm in the u.s. 6th guild. So what? Only thing you can claim is your guild doesn't tell people to switch mains, my guild does. My guild did tell our locks to switch, we used to have 4 locks, now 1. Our best lock switch to ret, another switch to boomie, 1 quit, and 1 stayed lock.

So your guild doesn't tell people to switch mains, my guild does, paragons does, method does. All you can infer from this information is that some guilds do some guilds don't.

You seem to imply you inferred "top end guilds rarely tell people to switch mains because duality, which is top end, does not ask people to switch mains."
It doesn't make sense.

Once again, I'd like to note that being in the 10th place out of 11 classes is not middle of the pack. Seriously, stop comparing locks best spec to everyone else' worst spec.

[Zevoa]

Very rarely? Did you go to a bunch of top end guilds then ask whether they ask their players to reroll? Last time I check paragon and method both ask their players to level up multiple classes so they can switch between them in case their class is shit or the fight needs another class stack.

I know blood runs cold and modest both do the same as well.

I'm not going to say it's not "rare". I don't have data to make a statistical claim. However once again you have made claims with no source to back it.

Sure, overall probly not all the casual guilds and etc ask players to switch, in fact they may not have the luxury to ask that.

However it's questionable whether top end guilds do it often. It will remain questionable until proven otherwise.

What? Please don't pretend to know things you know nothing about.

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T17N.html

updated, now only 19 specs above best warlock spec

The sky is in perpetual descent.

[FurtyIRL]

I do see your armory link, and I'm in the u.s. 6th guild. So what? Only thing you can claim is your guild doesn't tell people to switch mains, my guild does. My guild did told our locks to switch, we used to have 4 locks, now 1. Our best lock switch to ret, another switch to boomie, 1 quit, and 1 stayed lock.

So your guild doesn't tell people to switch mains, my guild does, paragons does, method does. All you can infer from this information is that some guilds do some guilds don't.

You seem to imply you inferred "top end guilds rarely tell people to switch mains because my guild, which is top end, does not ask people to switch mains."
It doesn't make sense.

Once again, I'd like to note that being in the 10th place out of 11 classes is not middle of the pack. Seriously, stop comparing locks best spec to everyone else' worst spec.

I was under the impression Razzia had stopped raiding?

Obviously your guild didn't make your warlocks switch or the best one would still be playing warlock. As I said if you reroll fotm that's fantastic but in my experience forced rerolls are rare. The reason? You're not going to kick some of your best players because they want to play their class. The reason for that is finding replacements for players of a certain calibre is very difficult. So yeah, some guilds suggest it, and if you have 4 of 1 class in a 20m roster of course all 4 of them aren't going to see full playtime. This should be obvious.

Also, we don't exist in our own little guild bubble. A lot of us are very good friends with players in other top 10 guilds and just because my guild specifically has certain policies doesn't mean I'm not familiar the policies of other guilds. Method and Paragon are also essentially outliers along with BL to some extent because they raid so much more and commit so much more to progression than any other guilds, and even then they don't generally force rerolls (unless they bring in alts to gimmick a fight). Another great example is Heroic Garrosh; shadowpriests were beyond mediocre last tier and Blood Legion brought both Bond and Iapeto to their kill. Why? Because both those players are exceptional at their class and having a willing participant who doesn't make mistakes is a lot more valuable than either losing or alienating your best players.

The sky is in perpetual descent.

They're generally pretty good about keeping warlocks in a good place and if those sims reflect what happens in mythic I imagine we'll see some swift buffs. But yeah, sad day

[Rayaleith]

This forum has ended up being a place with people saying that "there is a problem" and some others say that "there is no problem but I don't tell you why". Great community.

[kamuii]

Obviously your guild didn't make your warlocks switch or the best one would still be playing warlock.

Let's see,

"hey guys, we are only bringing 1 lock, don't care which one of you reroll"

- - - Updated - - -

What? Please don't pretend to know things you know nothing about.

that's what they did during cata.

[FurtyIRL]

Let's see,

"hey guys, we are only bringing 1 lock, don't care which one of you reroll"

Obviously the other two players didn't care or they weren't confident in their playing ability. Like I said, 20m roster, if you have multiple of a weak class, they're not going to be played - what do you expect? No guild has an exact 20 man roster for Mythic so players are going to see bench time, moreso if your class is a weaker one. Welcome to a raiding guild.

[Deleted]

What do you not understand about the fact that Blizz balances classes with ALL fights in mind?

Blizzard has never balanced the game. Never.

I played Ele Shaman back in the days of Ulduar. There was no elemental weapon in the whole ulduar droplist. We had to wait till all healers looted theirs to get a suboptimal maze with mana regen. That were the times of the new brand awesome 45 seconds CD frog, so every 45 seconds you could cc a mob for 8 secs while mages could sheep at any given point. No one cared about elemental shamans because almost no one played it.

Another example: aoe shadow priest now. Shadow priest aoe now is just garbage (thank God we can single target well now). Our aoe spell is low because Blizzards think that if they fix it we could use it in our 1 target rotation. Oh wait, wasn't that how fury warrior worked for years? Wasn't elemental shaman spamming chain lightning for some tiers? Yeah, let just shadow priests remove his aoe ability from his actionbars and multi-dot for 15k dps.

And I don't want to go to Vanilla/TBC times where some bosses mechanics required one specific class.

That's how Blizzard "balances" the game.

If your spec is broken and you don't get fixed in a few weeks just reroll. Don't wait for Blizzard to balance it because you may be waiting for a whole expansion. That's what the players have learnt after 10 years. Most top raiding guilds ask their players to level up more than one class just to be able to choose the overpowered ones.

[kamuii]

moreso if your class is a weaker one. Welcome to a raiding guild.

And that's a problem. You don't see that as forced reroll? Lol...

You seem to imply that's how raiding guilds are suppose to be which implies it happens quite often or it should happen quite often. Yet you claim it happens very rarely. Quite contradicting statements you make.

"We are not bringing weak classes" is basically a forced reroll... Well, either reroll or not raid. Which to my knowledge happens quite often in high end raiding guilds. Though I can't prove it so I'm not going to claim it as a fact.

[Deleted]

This forum has ended up being a place with people saying that "there is a problem" and some others say that "there is no problem but I don't tell you why". Great community.

Pretty much, yeah.