After Initial Burst...DPS Goes Poof

[GloryD]

So after running a Normal HM run I realized how terrible my DPS was...after that run I was disappointed and frustrated I got gear from it but I did not feel deserving of such because of my performance. Immediately after I went to look at High End Monks Logs and I see some of them using ChiEx and RJW or Chi Brew and ChiEx and RJW and even another I saw using Chi Burst instead of Chi Wave.

I have been looking everywhere to find a optimal rotation...my initial burst is great but after the beginning rotation my DPS just goes to crap and I find myself not keeping up with the DPS at all. My best DPS was 14k on Brackenspore seen here (reports/yP9Anxpk3MRF7DmK#fight=9&type=damage-done&source=10) and I just feel stuck...I'm sure Serenity isn't obsolete and its just me and not knowing where to go after my beginning burst.

My Armory is here : /en/character/senjin/Gloryd/advanced

Now I'm confused...should I be getting used to both since both are optimal in Specific situations? like SER for the Butcher and ChiEx for Twins or Tectus? also I have questions since my DPS is in the craphole...my opener is on par but its what to do after I don't get.

- Do I keep Tiger Palm up anytime I can use? would it be more efficient to use it when it procs or when its about to expire
- When is it optimal to pop TEB? before FoF or chain RSK and then FoF? and is it most efficient between 10 and 20 stacks?
- Should I be spamming BOK whenever I can to keep the buff up?
- When does Expel Harm fit in? Below half health or more?
- When is Serenity usable? and should it be used over FoF when they're both up? or vice versa?

I just need to know what and when is usable so I can sustain peak DPS instead of doing a burst from the start and then falling way off the DPS Charts and I would rather stick to one and just master it for peak damage all criticism is welcome and also I am having a hard time finding WW Monk specific WeakAuras or a overall visual setup for me so thank you to anyone who reads this.

[rijn dael]

Here is the rough guidelines I use, better than just telling you specific fights I think.

Serenity+chibrew+(rjw/kitty) = there is only one target available most of the time, and average targets over the fight (within chiex range) is closer to one than two. Eg butcher and margok, but not twins or brackenspore. You *can* use ascension if you suck at managing chi brew, but chi brew is a big part of the serenity burst, being able to get max TeB faster etc.

Chiex+ascen+kitty(never rjw) = there are at least two targets inside chiex range for a large portion of the fight. Brackenspore is a great example of this, tectus isn't bad either. Twins is worth it assuming you stack them, not sure if anyone keeps them split. Common wisdom atm says we don't have enough energy for RJW and keeping up with ChiEx at this level, but maybe in future tiers. SCK gives chi faster if you need to aoe hardcore (tectus) anyway, so not a big deal.

Tiger palm = only to maintain the buff, OR if your free TP buff is about to fall off, never at any other time.

TeB is a big thing... personally I only use it for serenity>fof>17+ stacks. Eventually with sexy trinkets that will end up changing a bit.

BoK = not sure what you are asking here? If you meant RSK, you should be casting it on CD as either serenity / chiex, unless you are aoe'ing as chiex, in which case you just want to keep the debuff up.

Expel harm is a dps increase over jab *so long as you are getting majority of it as healing*. Only healing done is sent out as damage, so just make a weakaura showing when you are at least 7k or so, and replace jabs with it then. Keep in mind, this is something even good WW's often don't bother with - WW isn't exactly rewarding for perfect play, so focus on other things first like keeping SEF clones on max targets, being in range to cleave with 4-chi ChiEx, etc.

Serenity = either a focus target, or the fight doesn't support cleaving multiple targets in close proximity. In general line it up with your pot usages, don't use FoF while you have serenity, and spam RSK>BoK while under serenity.

Let me know if anything needs a better explanation ^^

[Notter]

first of all, monks don't have a "burst", so what you're saying doesn't make sense.
if anything, our dps goes up as the fight drags longer.

as for your questions:
1. yes, keep TP up always. it ignores 30% armor, you want that.

2. use TEB when your trinkets pop, or when you are at a situation where you can do a lot of dps. best to use it when it has 10 stack to maximize it's effect.
and use FoF after drinking brew.

3. BOK is your main chi usage. of course you spam it. the debuff it does is not something you should be concerned tot much about. just try to hit from behind.

4. expel harm is something you use when you're not on full health. you always want to be on full health.

5. use serenity when you got 10 brew stacks, TP up, and RSK up, and at least 2 chi. then spam BOK until it's over.
and don't use FoF with serenity, it will waste the whole serenity period.


now, for chi explosion / serenity.
some fights are way better with chi explosion, and those are fights with multiple targets which are close to each other.
and those are tectus, twin ogrons, and brackenspore.

i also use chix on kor'gath since it does magic damage, and does a ton of damage to adds.

[rijn dael]

5. use serenity when you got 10 brew stacks, TP up, and RSK up, and at least 2 chi. then spam BOK until it's over.
and don't use FoF with serenity, it will waste the whole serenity period.

I don't quite understand why everyone worries about RSK so much there, it is higher dpct than BoK, and in serenity you will always have enough chi to cast it, since you cast it on cd it seems odd to worry about it falling off. The simcraft model does it too, but yeah, it isn't like it will miss uptime either way.

[GloryD]

first of all, monks don't have a "burst", so what you're saying doesn't make sense.
if anything, our dps goes up as the fight drags longer.

as for your questions:
1. yes, keep TP up always. it ignores 30% armor, you want that.

2. use TEB when your trinkets pop, or when you are at a situation where you can do a lot of dps. best to use it when it has 10 stack to maximize it's effect.
and use FoF after drinking brew.

3. BOK is your main chi usage. of course you spam it. the debuff it does is not something you should be concerned tot much about. just try to hit from behind.

4. expel harm is something you use when you're not on full health. you always want to be on full health.

5. use serenity when you got 10 brew stacks, TP up, and RSK up, and at least 2 chi. then spam BOK until it's over.
and don't use FoF with serenity, it will waste the whole serenity period.


now, for chi explosion / serenity.
some fights are way better with chi explosion, and those are fights with multiple targets which are close to each other.
and those are tectus, twin ogrons, and brackenspore.

i also use chix on kor'gath since it does magic damage, and does a ton of damage to adds.

Burst was the wrong word my apologies I meant the opener since I pop expel harm to get 3 to 4 chi and commence the opener and ah okay why use serenity when TP is up and RSK? i assume for after the serenity goes so I can keep some consistent damage? and when is Chi Brew best to pop? in the rotation I have its popped twice to do two BOK but where is it used best? when i am energy deprived? or?

[Notter]

I don't quite understand why everyone worries about RSK so much there, it is higher dpct than BoK, and in serenity you will always have enough chi to cast it, since you cast it on cd it seems odd to worry about it falling off. The simcraft model does it too, but yeah, it isn't like it will miss uptime either way.

yeah, you're right, you can use RSK after serenity too, i just wrote it as a guideline
personally, i use a macro that has 1 button for RSK and BOK (uses rsk every 8 seconds else bok). i can share if someone wants.
but i warn that it's not the most efficient way to play. though by a small margin.

anyway, since i use the macro, i don't really think about when to use RSK, it just happens.

Burst was the wrong word my apologies I meant the opener since I pop expel harm to get 3 to 4 chi and commence the opener and ah
okay why use serenity when TP is up and RSK?
i assume for after the serenity goes so I can keep some consistent damage?
and when is Chi Brew best to pop?
in the rotation I have its popped twice to do two BOK but where is it used best? when i am energy deprived? or?

you use serenity when those are up, so you have 10 full seconds of spamming like mad BOK without a care in the world.
of course you can use them after poping serenity, doesn't matter that much, just make sure to have them up.

personally i use chi brew at the start of the fight while also doing 2-3 normal jabs, to get to 10 stacks of brew as fast as possible, and then use 10 brew stacks and serenity.
after that, i use chi brew whenever i can, mostly. the extra BOK from the 2 chi is nice, but the main thing about it is the 2 brew stacks.
also don't let it sit on 2 stacks, cause it's a waste.

edit: well i'm gonna share the rsk/bok macro in case anyone is interested.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=8 Rising Sun Kick, Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick,Blackout Kick

[rijn dael]

Burst was the wrong word my apologies I meant the opener since I pop expel harm to get 3 to 4 chi and commence the opener and ah okay why use serenity when TP is up and RSK? i assume for after the serenity goes so I can keep some consistent damage? and when is Chi Brew best to pop? in the rotation I have its popped twice to do two BOK but where is it used best? when i am energy deprived? or?

chi brew = outside the opener I just use it when I don't have enough energy to jab to the right amount of chi to cast FoF/ToD on cd.

During the opener I use it with BoK to get TeB stacks up (eg in the opener to get as much teb as possible before your initial buffs wear off).

Start fights with full chi (ie, 5-6 depending on ascension) - it is (relatively) important to get extra TeB stacks during the opener.

TP is basically bad dpet compared to BoK/RSK, so when chi is free you want to cast the highest dpet spells you can, which is RSK>BoK. This means ideally you want TP to have been refreshed recently enough that you don't lose it during serenity - note that if it does fall off, 30% armour pen makes it worth casting anyway, except maybe as the last gcd of serenity.

edit:

@Notter, I really don't like that macro, but in the interest of science - it won't ever reset inside combat unless there is a huge no-target period, since the reset=8 gets restarted every time you press the macro rather than from the 'start' of the sequence. You may as well say reset=combat :P

[Deleted]

With all due respect, there's guides all over the net that would answer most of your questions - Icyveins is my own personal favourite.

I find it odd that your DPS drops after the burst by such a large margin, seeing as WW monks tends to power up after a while as TeB gains stacks.

You should get used to ChiEx, honestly, seeing as it's relevant by a large margin on Tectus, Bracek, Twins and (to some extent) Imperator as well. To optimize your DPs you need to be comfortable with both of the lvl 100 talents.

[GloryD]

With all due respect, there's guides all over the net that would answer most of your questions - Icyveins is my own personal favourite.

I find it odd that your DPS drops after the burst by such a large margin, seeing as WW monks tends to power up after a while as TeB gains stacks.

You should get used to ChiEx, honestly, seeing as it's relevant by a large margin on Tectus, Bracek, Twins and (to some extent) Imperator as well. To optimize your DPs you need to be comfortable with both of the lvl 100 talents.

Probably but this seemed to be better as the tips I got have worked at least from testing but now is the unavoidable issue of Downtime and popping EnB and FB but after that the downtime is horrible...I can kinda see why the ChiEx build is kinda good since haste is more of priority with that build but the drop was because the way I was utilizing stuff wasn't correct so some tweaking fixed it but still the downtime thing is a whole other thing.

[Deleted]

Probably but this seemed to be better as the tips I got have worked at least from testing but now is the unavoidable issue of Downtime and popping EnB and FB but after that the downtime is horrible...I can kinda see why the ChiEx build is kinda good since haste is more of priority with that build but the drop was because the way I was utilizing stuff wasn't correct so some tweaking fixed it but still the downtime thing is a whole other thing.

But it is essentially crowding the forum with the same question many times. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

I still understand this "downtime" you're on about. You mean outside trinkets and serenity? I play Serenity on Butcher and Kargath only (I use ChiEx on the 6th boss for adds + more magic damage for the barrier), but I never seem to have any such "downtime" that it horrible to deal with; Once you play a bit with ChiEx this "downtime" becomes natural and you should find yourself getting used to it and being able to strike a balance on when to use skills and when to save up for incoming FoF and such.

[GloryD]

But it is essentially crowding the forum with the same question many times. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

I still understand this "downtime" you're on about. You mean outside trinkets and serenity? I play Serenity on Butcher and Kargath only (I use ChiEx on the 6th boss for adds + more magic damage for the barrier), but I never seem to have any such "downtime" that it horrible to deal with; Once you play a bit with ChiEx this "downtime" becomes natural and you should find yourself getting used to it and being able to strike a balance on when to use skills and when to save up for incoming FoF and such.

Ah my mistake I did look around before doing this it wasn't spur of the moment...and yes outside of trinkets and serenity and its not horrible but its there and I just feel like if I used Chi Brew and ChiEx for example the downtime gap wouldn't be as huge as it seems to be with serenity but that could be it too... usually when I do have the downtime i look for any attack to become usable like TP or BOK just to keep them up and Chi Wave or pop a brew just to do an attack.

[Notter]

i think if someone wants personal treatment, let him ask in his own thread, i don't see the problem, there's no thread cap :P

anyway, about the downtime
yeah, since jab now costs 45 energy, you essentially do 2 jabs, and you're done.
so monks have downtime, nothing really i can say to help you with it, that's just how the class works now, and personally, i think it sucks and clunky.

you just build up brew stacks slowllyyyyy and then use it and FoF... and wait for serenity or energy brew to come up again

[GloryD]

i think if someone wants personal treatment, let him ask in his own thread, i don't see the problem, there's no thread cap :P

anyway, about the downtime
yeah, since jab now costs 45 energy, you essentially do 2 jabs, and you're done.
so monks have downtime, nothing really i can say to help you with it, that's just how the class works now, and personally, i think it sucks and clunky.

you just build up brew stacks slowllyyyyy and then use it and FoF... and wait for serenity or energy brew to come up again

Yeah I had to realize that its tough but understandable i really do appreciate the help I have been racking my brain about this all day I can finally be at ease for a bit.

[rijn dael]

But it is essentially crowding the forum with the same question many times. This is just my opinion and others may disagree.

It's fine, while the sticky threads and the like have a lot of information in them, they also have 40+ pages of esoteric stuff only tangentially related to a specific individuals problems. The whole point of having a forum for discussion is being able to discuss things, and this is a lot more relevant than a third or fourth "oh, we got nerfed again" thread :P

Tailored advice is invaluable, and there are plenty of people happy to provide it :-)

[Opkorean]

Its really not as bad as alot of people thing. this img below is for heroic imperator mar'gok, yes damage after burst isnt great (no class afaik maintains their burst dmg) but monks excel at good sustained damage throughout a longer fight as long as you are micromanaging your resources and have good usage of TeB then your dps will stay high throughout a fight.

[IMG][/IMG]

The only fights where i am using chi exp are on brackenspore and tectus. I am going to try chi exp on mythic ogron this week but until now we havent tanked them close enough for the cleave to work effectively. otherwise on all fights its chi brew/serenity. Utilize alot of these forum posts here there is alot of good information. if youre using icy-veins please take what they say with a grain of salt because they have still not really updated their rotation section in a while and only talk about chi explosion and dont really mention serenity at all. just take the time, study the rotations, study resource management, and perfect the class. monks are very unforgiving in their rotations so it will take practice like any other class. dont just qq because you did 14k on brackenspore, figure out the issue, explore forum posts, and tweak your playstyle

[GloryD]

Its really not as bad as alot of people thing. this img below is for heroic imperator mar'gok, yes damage after burst isnt great (no class afaik maintains their burst dmg) but monks excel at good sustained damage throughout a longer fight as long as you are micromanaging your resources and have good usage of TeB then your dps will stay high throughout a fight.


The only fights where i am using chi exp are on brackenspore and tectus. I am going to try chi exp on mythic ogron this week but until now we havent tanked them close enough for the cleave to work effectively. otherwise on all fights its chi brew/serenity. Utilize alot of these forum posts here there is alot of good information. if youre using icy-veins please take what they say with a grain of salt because they have still not really updated their rotation section in a while and only talk about chi explosion and dont really mention serenity at all. just take the time, study the rotations, study resource management, and perfect the class. monks are very unforgiving in their rotations so it will take practice like any other class. dont just qq because you did 14k on brackenspore, figure out the issue, explore forum posts, and tweak your playstyle

I forgot to mention before WoD I hadn't played in a year so everything that I knew before for the most part changed so no qq from me its more so me analyzing that my DPS and what i was doing wasn't working so I am spending most of my days now tweaking my playstyle...I missed my last two days of dallies just sitting at a training dummy figuring out what to use and when to use it efficiently it was just I needed this criticism and suggestions....makes me want to be better.

- - - Updated - - -

Also I have a weapon Dilemma I have a 645 Polearm that doesn't cater to any of my stats except agility and two one handers one is 636 and one is 630 but they both come with Multistrike so what do I choose? I thought the polearm just because of the increased Agility and Stam and the iLvl obviously but my MS takes a hit.