[Prot] Struggling to hold aggro against DK offtanks

[16dots]

I just leveled my paladin to 100 a few days ago, struggling to hold threat against our DK off tank in high maul, if I don't taunt spam (i try and do it every 15 seconds to avoid DR, but if i don't get some lucky Sotr procs, i have to use it).

Right now it's very frustrating, he has to hold off on his dps when ever I am main tanking, and I hate that, I want him to never hold off, what are other prot paladins doing to avoid getting aggro ninjaed by DKs?? what am I doing wrong? It really feels like if I don't get a triple or quad sotr proc, the aggro will be transfered, I am thinking about stop using seal of insight and starting to use seal of truth for our raid that's coming up this week, I hope that'll solve the problem.

[Chameau]

Sanctified wrath is a nice option here if you don't use it already!

[Makh]

I just leveled my paladin to 100 a few days ago, struggling to hold threat against our DK off tank, if I don't taunt spam (i try and do it every 15 seconds to avoid DR, but if i don't get some lucky Sotr procs, i have to use it).

Right now it's very frustrating, he has to hold off on his dps when ever I am main tanking, and I hate that, I want him to never hold off, what are other prot paladins doing to avoid getting aggro ninjaed by DKs?? what am I doing wrong? It really feels like if I don't get a triple or quad sotr proc, the aggro will be transfered, I am thinking about stop using seal of insight and starting to use seal of truth for our raid that's coming up this week, I hope that'll solve the problem.

There's nothing special about DK tanks in particular, it's just DPS from gear disparity. In the first few weeks of Highmaul, I tanked with a lesser geared Warrior tank, and I pulled threat constantly. I ended up removing Righteous Fury when off-tanking. This is a byproduct of the removal of vengeance. Off-tanks *will* keep up in threat generation.

If your healers can handle it, use seal of truth instead of seal of light. Upgrade your weapon, and keep doing exactly what you're doing. This problem will go away with gear.

[16dots]

Sanctified wrath is a nice option here if you don't use it already!

Currently using divine purpose, the procs are currently helping me maintain my threat, will sanctified wrath be a much better option?

[Binaris]

Tell them to watch thier threat. That is still a thing. If there is a tank swap, and the previous tank pulls. It is THIER fault. As many dks macro dancing rune weapon, watch for that too.

[Makh]

Currently using divine purpose, the procs are currently helping me maintain my threat, will sanctified wrath be a much better option?

I haven't run any sims for it, but my basic understanding is as follows:

Divine Purpose gives you 33% more SoRs (since DP can proc off itself), so you get more mitigation, and more damage.

Sanctified Wrath gives you an extra 4 holy power each minute. Crusader Strike gives you 13, Judgement gives you 10, and lets assume Grand Crusader procs. So adding 4 holy power to 17 is less than a 25% increase of SoRs - not even close to the 33% of Divine Purpose.

I just don't see sanctified wrath has being any good for prot right now.

[Kanadei]

I haven't run any sims for it, but my basic understanding is as follows:

Divine Purpose gives you 33% more SoRs (since DP can proc off itself), so you get more mitigation, and more damage.

Sanctified Wrath gives you an extra 4 holy power each minute. Crusader Strike gives you 13, Judgement gives you 10, and lets assume Grand Crusader procs. So adding 4 holy power to 17 is less than a 25% increase of SoRs - not even close to the 33% of Divine Purpose.

I just don't see sanctified wrath has being any good for prot right now.

Just wanted to point out that being able to time your SotR for when you actually need it as opposed to whenever the proc happens to come up is a legitimate concern.

Is that enough to swing from one talent to the other? Up to you, but it is worth thinking about.

Personally I run HA most of the time, but I'm oldschool like that.

[Kheirn]

Are you running Seraphim? If not, start doing that. Your threat should no longer be a problem.

[Deleted]

Are you running Seraphim? If not, start doing that. Your threat should no longer be a problem.

Well, it still will. He'll just have the opposite issue where he can't be in the same room as his co-tank without ripping threat.

[lakhesis]

Sanctified Wrath + Seraphim will be your highest dps talent setup.
Divine Purpose + Seraphim is close on DPS and a bit smoother on damage.

If you're trying to burst you'll want to be a little careful with how you're timing Seraphim, cos you'll go through a bit of a dry spell on holy power just before it & just after it.

Seal of Truth is a completely legit option now - it's about 10% extra damage so it should help with your threat significantly. Seal of Insight is still decent healing tho, so it's a deliberate trade off.

When you're doing the taunt to boost threat, make sure you've got a double SotR lined up & either avenger's shield or holy wrath... they are your best burst damage & while they might be lower prio over the long run, if you're trying to establish threat then shoving them into the 3s boosted threat window that triggers after you taunt will give you a very substantial boost.

Too many people treat the tankadin rotation as set in stone & forget that our highest burst threat moves aren't our normal highest prio moves.

[Deleted]

Sanctified Wrath + Seraphim will be your highest dps talent setup.
Divine Purpose + Seraphim is close on DPS and a bit smoother on damage.

If you're trying to burst you'll want to be a little careful with how you're timing Seraphim, cos you'll go through a bit of a dry spell on holy power just before it & just after it.

Seal of Truth is a completely legit option now - it's about 10% extra damage so it should help with your threat significantly. Seal of Insight is still decent healing tho, so it's a deliberate trade off.

When you're doing the taunt to boost threat, make sure you've got a double SotR lined up & either avenger's shield or holy wrath... they are your best burst damage & while they might be lower prio over the long run, if you're trying to establish threat then shoving them into the 3s boosted threat window that triggers after you taunt will give you a very substantial boost.

Too many people treat the tankadin rotation as set in stone & forget that our highest burst threat moves aren't our normal highest prio moves.

Bolding mine: You are incorrect. Ever since the GC change, DP has technically been higher DPS on average than SW. The only remaining issue with DP is the fact that DP can (and in my personal case most definitely will) screw you over completely if you get buggered by RNJebus, whereas SW is 100%, completely, and utterly reliable.

[Kheirn]

Well, it still will. He'll just have the opposite issue where he can't be in the same room as his co-tank without ripping threat.

Righteous Fury cancelaura macro. I don't know if DKs lose or gain DPS by changing presence, but paladins are unaffected by dropping RF, i.e. threat gen. The only finicky part is getting it back on if you include the recast in the same macro to save a keybind. Hint: Don't spam it while waiting for the GCD to come off!

Bolding mine: You are incorrect. Ever since the GC change, DP has technically been higher DPS on average than SW. The only remaining issue with DP is the fact that DP can (and in my personal case most definitely will) screw you over completely if you get buggered by RNJebus, whereas SW is 100%, completely, and utterly reliable.

Running my char through SimCraft lists HA+Ser as highest DPS, most likely because they line up perfectly. The difference is miniscule however (about 1-2%) and can be disregarded, it's a personal choice. You are right about DP > SW in terms of DPS, but again, the difference is minimal.

[lakhesis]

Bolding mine: You are incorrect. Ever since the GC change, DP has technically been higher DPS on average than SW. The only remaining issue with DP is the fact that DP can (and in my personal case most definitely will) screw you over completely if you get buggered by RNJebus, whereas SW is 100%, completely, and utterly reliable.

I'm purely simming for my own gearset (665 equipped), so your+OPs mileage may vary with different setups, but what I'm seeing atm is:

1 target, no avenger's shield glyph (div prot, alabaster shield & final wrath), 100ms latency

DPS Ranking (Final Wrath + Alabaster Shield):
  20556   4.1%  HA_ES_Seraphim
  20226   4.1%  SW_ES_Seraphim
  20074   4.0%  HA_LH_Seraphim
  19790   4.0%  SW_LH_Seraphim
  19688   4.0%  HA_Prism_Seraphim
  19493   3.9%  SW_Prism_Seraphim
  18996   3.8%  DP_ES_Seraphim
  18832   3.8%  HA_ES_Empowered
  18763   3.8%  SW_ES_Empowered
  18565   3.7%  DP_LH_Seraphim
  18537   3.7%  HA_LH_Empowered
  18502   3.7%  SW_LH_Empowered
  18358   3.7%  HA_ES_HolyShield
  18224   3.7%  HA_Prism_Empowered
  18224   3.7%  SW_ES_HolyShield
  18203   3.7%  DP_Prism_Seraphim
  18149   3.6%  SW_Prism_Empowered
  18053   3.6%  HA_LH_HolyShield
  17913   3.6%  SW_LH_HolyShield
  17873   3.6%  HA_Prism_HolyShield
  17821   3.6%  SW_Prism_HolyShield
  17588   3.5%  DP_ES_Empowered
  17331   3.5%  DP_ES_HolyShield
  17303   3.5%  DP_LH_Empowered
  17027   3.4%  DP_LH_HolyShield
  16948   3.4%  DP_Prism_Empowered
  16831   3.4%  DP_Prism_HolyShield

If I swap out Final Wrath for Focused Shield, then I get:

DPS Ranking (Alabaster Shield + Focused Shield)
  21318   4.2%  HA_ES_Seraphim
  20827   4.1%  HA_LH_Seraphim
  20686   4.0%  SW_ES_Seraphim
  20426   4.0%  HA_Prism_Seraphim
  20251   4.0%  SW_LH_Seraphim
  19945   3.9%  SW_Prism_Seraphim
  19696   3.9%  DP_ES_Seraphim
  19416   3.8%  HA_ES_Empowered
  19264   3.8%  DP_LH_Seraphim
  19099   3.7%  HA_LH_Empowered
  19009   3.7%  SW_ES_Empowered
  18881   3.7%  HA_ES_HolyShield
  18871   3.7%  DP_Prism_Seraphim
  18779   3.7%  HA_Prism_Empowered
  18749   3.7%  SW_LH_Empowered
  18568   3.6%  HA_LH_HolyShield
  18540   3.6%  SW_ES_HolyShield
  18386   3.6%  SW_Prism_Empowered
  18386   3.6%  HA_Prism_HolyShield
  18248   3.6%  SW_LH_HolyShield
  18131   3.5%  SW_Prism_HolyShield
  18127   3.5%  DP_ES_Empowered
  17840   3.5%  DP_LH_Empowered
  17828   3.5%  DP_ES_HolyShield
  17510   3.4%  DP_LH_HolyShield
  17477   3.4%  DP_Prism_Empowered
  17317   3.4%  DP_Prism_HolyShield

(I'd have thought FW glyph would buff SW comparatively, but it doesn't seem to in practice)

---

Unfortunately I can't conveniently cut & paste over the TMI rankings but my results were reasonably consistent with what I recall seeing when simming at lower gear levels.

Prism consistently won out for TMI, but considering ES is used offensively in my sims that probably shouldn't be terribly surprising.

All three level 75 talents were very close in TMI value with Seraphim, but DTPS went HA > DP > SW.
Holy Shield + DP or SW were marginally worse TMI than Seraphim, but pretty close to identical with each other. Holy Shield + Holy Avenger seemed slightly weaker again. For DTPS it was HA > DP > SW again.
Empowered Seals is still under performing (especially given how obnoxious it is to use).

I don't like Holy Avenger much, so I'll stick to SW + Seraphim as my go-to setup.

Holy Shield is definitely a major DPS hit to go with its hassle-free passivity. SW + Holy Shield was as good a mix of damage + mitigation as it got.

PS. I was using Seal of Insight in all those sims. My experience with past sims have said that Seal of Truth doesn't change the rankings at all - after all, it affects everything equally - it just boosts damage & reduces mitigation.

PS#2. Using Simulationcraft 6.0.3, release 21