Overspecialised specs, lack of utility and bad talent design are hurting Warlocks

[Grizelda]

I can't tell when you're trolling anymore.

[Zevoa]

I can't tell when you're trolling anymore.

I can't see all of the issues other players are having; some yes, as many as people cry about? No.

If I honestly thought Warlocks were in a 'bad place', I would've rerolled weeks ago, considering the amount of time I put in to this silly game.

A significant proportion of the perceived 'issues' with the class come down to poor decision making on the players part and can be overcome with simply playing better.

[Baconeggcheese]

Yeah I really didn't understand bashiok saying that highmaul just wasn't warlock friendly.

Between all 3 of our specs + talent combinations we have an answer to every single fight.. or even several depending on what your raid needs in a particular fight...

Besides tuning the other half of the reason we were so strong in mop was because we had tools for EVERYTHING and most of those tools still exist... so I don't really understand what magical niche situations we're supposed to "shine" in BRF that don't exist in highmaul.

[Orloth]

Thank you Jessicka, I am largely in agreement.

I think there are a few extremely well put together posts in the 6.1 suggestions thread that cover a lot of these issues.

Overall, though: I think we just need a look over. Minor adjustments to our talents and damage spread would fix a lot of these issues. The Dev's went in WoD Alpha/Beta thinking "Warlocks just got a rework, they don't need any attention right now" and through inattentiveness allowed global changes to affect us adversely without a glance.

[Jessicka]

I can't see all of the issues other players are having; some yes, as many as people cry about? No.

If I honestly thought Warlocks were in a 'bad place', I would've rerolled weeks ago, considering the amount of time I put in to this silly game.

A significant proportion of the perceived 'issues' with the class come down to poor decision making on the players part and can be overcome with simply playing better.

It's players who are indifferent to switching specs, higher end players who play purely competitively like yourself who don't see that as an issue. That simply isn't how most of the playerbase view the game.

[Baconeggcheese]

It's players who are indifferent to switching specs, higher end players who play purely competitively like yourself who don't see that as an issue. That simply isn't how most of the playerbase view the game.

While I'd be on board with every spec having real options to do fairly well at everything... that doesn't really line up with blizzards philosophies.

They very intentionally want certain specs to be good and X and bad at Y and have their niches. If people want blizzard to change that then it isn't a warlock issue but a class design philosophy issue that needs to be brought up more generally.

[Jessicka]

While I'd be on board with every spec having real options to do fairly well at everything... that doesn't really line up with blizzards philosophies.

They very intentionally want certain specs to be good and X and bad at Y and have their niches. If people want blizzard to change that then it isn't a warlock issue but a class design philosophy issue that needs to be brought up more generally.

I honestly can't think of another class in the game which has specs that are nearly so binary in their... abilities and inabilities. :S

[Erolian]

I honestly can't think of another class in the game which has specs that are nearly so binary in their... abilities and inabilities. :S

Check out the general status quo of strength/weakness across pure classes specifically. You'll see they're all intentionally designed for specific scenarios some moreso than others. For example hunters don't feel it as strongly as a fire mage will where they go from zero to hero depending on how many mobs are in cleave range. Generally I hate the entire idea as usually the specs want completely different stats so you have to regem/enchant/spec to do optimal DPS across an entire raid where non pure specs don't really suffer half of the same burden and in a lot of instances they're just as competitive as the pures without having to make the same effort to learn three different rotations and swap gear as they'll only swap a talent or two instead

[Baconeggcheese]

I honestly can't think of another class in the game which has specs that are nearly so binary in their... abilities and inabilities. :S

You're either underestimating warlock specs or overestimating other specs or some odd amalgam of both then.

destro and demo are very jack of all trades with 1 specific area each where they are just irredeemable and affs has no direct damage or aoe.

We're really not any better or worse off than most other classes in that regard if you look into it.

[Zevoa]

It's players who are indifferent to switching specs, higher end players who play purely competitively like yourself who don't see that as an issue. That simply isn't how most of the playerbase view the game.

You play a Warlock; you don't play a Demonology or Destruction Warlock.

[Orloth]

You play a Warlock; you don't play a Demonology or Destruction Warlock.

Isn't that something of a problem though?

[Deleted]

It's players who are indifferent to switching specs, higher end players who play purely competitively like yourself who don't see that as an issue. That simply isn't how most of the playerbase view the game.

This attitude of players has been the main reason for dumbing down every single thing about this game that used to be challenging and rewarding. Why dont we just give every class one instant cast spell that they spam every global to make sure every 5yr old who goes online on a 3 day basis can pull off the same dps as a min maxing competetive player ? Why introduce different difficulties for raids when every casual nowadays feels like he deserves to excel at the highest one without effort just because he pays a subscription fee ? If you want to get good at any game you have to give it your all and that includes optimising and respeccing for any given fight. You are mad because you cant have 3 speccs so your toolkit is adequate to EVERY encounter you play ? Have you even looked into the toolkit of other classes and asked yourself if being suboptimal at some fight is just a warlock problem ?

There is a simple rule to this that has been applicable to EVERY single patch of this game so far, and that is you simply CANT be 100% effective on EVERY encounter you face, all you have to do is make the best of it. The SoO times where you could basically play affliction on every fight and still rape everyone are over. Warlocks are absolutely 100% fine they are right now, just adjust to fights as much as you can and be done with it.
Where is the problem to drop either affliction or destruction while you progress tectus and simply cba and play what you like/have available once its on farm ?
At least you have the possibility to adjust to everything in some way ? This is actually bothering me more than it should.

You can either be good at this game and make the most out of what you have or play whatever you like and perform poorer than somebody who decided to put in the needed effort. Mythic raiding isnt for everyone, and thats the way it should be.

Remember snapshotting ? It was a really fun mechanic that raised the skillcap of many classes and just felt super rewarding if done right.
What happened to it " I'm a casual and tracking my proccs is too much of an effort for me , but i want to be able to just as much as good players do ... Remove that maybe ? " and now ? "Respeccing and optimising for some fights is too much of an effort for me ,but i want to just as much as good players do ... Fix it maybe ? "

/endrant

(might get banned for good now but getting this off my chest is worth that 10 times over)

[Zevoa]

Isn't that something of a problem though?

No.

Look at every other Pure DPS class.

If you want to 'main' one DPS spec in farm who cares; I played Demonology for all of Siege farm. If you are unwilling to or unable to play all of your classes available specs, especially as a pure DPS class class then you're just a liability to your raid and probably really bad.

This attitude of players has been the main reason for dumbing down every single thing about this game that used to be challenging and rewarding. Why dont we just give every class one instant cast spell that they spam every global to make sure every 5yr old who goes online on a 3 day basis can pull off the same dps as a min maxing competetive player ? Why introduce different difficulties for raids when every casual nowadays feels like he deserves to excel at the highest one without effort just because he pays a subscription fee ? If you want to get good at any game you have to give it your all and that includes optimising and respeccing for any given fight. You are mad because you cant have 3 speccs so your toolkit is adequate to EVERY encounter you play ? Have you even looked into the toolkit of other classes and asked yourself if being suboptimal at some fight is just a warlock problem ?

Totally agree.

[Archmage Arugal]

No amount of skill you can bring to the table will change the fact that our talents have trap combinations in them, some of our glyphs are incomplete, and a number of spells are just flat out not worth using

[Zevoa]

No amount of skill you can bring to the table will change the fact that our talents have trap combinations in them, some of our glyphs are incomplete, and a number of spells are just flat out not worth using

You decide what to make of the choices available to you.

No one is going to deny that there aren't inferior or useless talent combinations; but what spells aren't worth using?

[Grizelda]

No.

Look at every other Pure DPS class.

That's one of the issues with that paradigm though. It's a pure DPS class that can't have a tool for everything and has to have a weakness because we can switch specs.

A hybrid only has the one DPS spec so that spec has to have a tool for every job. Plus the utility a hybrid brings. Plus the hybrid tax is history.

What's the advantage to being a pure?

I don't mind switching around my spec for diff fights I just want to know if that's what is intended. Or if that's just how it is at this moment for whatever reason.

[Deleted]

No.


If you want to 'main' one DPS spec in farm who cares; I played Demonology for all of Siege farm. If you are unwilling to or unable to play all of your classes available specs, especially as a pure DPS class class then you're just a liability to your raid and probably really bad.

that doesnt mean that the other lock specs shouldnt or couldnt be tuned up a bit, in the world of casualcraft, you dont respec for every fight, you play the spec you want to play(which is what it should be tbh) and you have to admit, if you dont respec to the absolute optimal spec, whether its normal, heroic or mythic, then generally your dps will suck, so i can definately see that point of view, but i will also admit that if you do spec the right spec for the encounter, then your numbers are just fine, not good but definately not bad either and that is also part of the problems as i see it, no matter the spec, you're either bad or ok'ish but you never shine, locks need ways to shine.

[Karigg]

No amount of skill you can bring to the table will change the fact that our talents have trap combinations in them, some of our glyphs are incomplete, and a number of spells are just flat out not worth using

Would have thought most classes have trap combinations. Let's say you've got 2 tiers of interacting talents. That's 9 combinations. Highly likely, even with perfect balance, that a few won't get used.

I would much rather have the warlock talent set than say, shadow priest's.

Into the fel flame I go...

Warlocks look pretty good at the moment. There are probably some tweaks that can and might be made to bring some things up a bit. The issue is probably more that there aren't any fights where warlocks really shine, and they're just consistently good. It's a stark contrast to Mists where warlocks shined in everything... everywhere... all the time. Neither situation is ideal, and it's something we're keeping an eye on.

Just in case anyone missed that one.

Speculating from that, it sounds like they might buff some warlock strengths, and avoid an across the board buff. AoE for destro or demo, or Affliction multi-dot. Affliction multidot is one area I feel should be stronger than it is. Coming into highmaul I expected affliction to be really good to Margok transitions, but it came out behind destro. It'll be a big part of BRF, so if they had to change one thing about the class without mucking around too much, that might be it.

[Zevoa]

Would have thought most classes have trap combinations. Let's say you've got 2 tiers of interacting talents. That's 9 combinations. Highly likely, even with perfect balance, that a few won't get used.

I would much rather have the warlock talent set than say, shadow priest's.



Just in case anyone missed that one.

Speculating from that, it sounds like they might buff some warlock strengths, and avoid an across the board buff. AoE for destro or demo, or Affliction multi-dot. Affliction multidot is one area I feel should be stronger than it is. Coming into highmaul I expected affliction to be really good to Margok transitions, but it came out behind destro. It'll be a big part of BRF, so if they had to change one thing about the class without mucking around too much, that might be it.

Would really like them to take another look at Immolation Aura damage, outside of MF; hasn't been looked at since the Siege nerf and stealth nerf.

[Archmage Arugal]

You decide what to make of the choices available to you.

No one is going to deny that there aren't inferior or useless talent combinations; but what spells aren't worth using?

Both Healthstone spells, Soulburn: Soul Swap, arguably Rain of Fire and regular Soul Swap, Soulburn: Seed of Corruption probably since Cataclysm does the same thing at no resource cost. Really, if it wasn't for Soulburn: Haunt, the Soulburn spell itself would be worthless in most things.