!!ARMS!! Bladestorm v Bloodbath SINGLE TARGET -- what am I missing?

[mrchee]

EDIT: Apparently some prominent warrior theorycrafters are in agreement with me:

Bladestorm is the optimal ST talent until T17 4pc, even then it's even. At least that's what I remember Collision telling me off the top of my head.

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I am iLevel 670 warrior, 7/7hc highmaul. I swap between arms and fury for my dps spec whenever i get bored of one. Spec #2 is ALWAYS protection.

Until this week I always used bloodbath. I decided on a whim to try bladestorm on heroic tectus for the laffs and was surprised at the tooltip damage.

I decided to sit down and calculate the value of each talent for a single target fight a la butcher/patchwerk. I went inside proving grounds and ate a food and a flask for full raid buffs

With my gear and 670 weapon with full raid/food/flask buff my tooltip values are as follows:

MS -- 28k
CS -- 18k
BASE execute -- 22k
WW -- 11k

BLADESTORM -- 18.6k per tick x 7 ticks

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BLOODBATH ABSOLUTE BEST CASE SCENARIO:

I figure I can get 8 max GCD abilities in during a bloodbath. Bloodbath will be valued thus at 30% of their damage.

MS x 3 = 84k
CS x 1 = 18k
Sudden Death x 1 = 22k
WW x 2 = 3 = 33k

Total = 179k damage

BLOODBATH CONTRIBUTION (30%) = +53k Damage


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BLADESTORM:

18.6k x 7 = 130k damage

Can be fit between 2 MS and only lose 1 GCD delay on the MS.

Can be used with zero rage to do high damage while building rage at same time

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Seems to me that Bladestorm is far higher dps gain for arms than bloodbath even on single target.

This is what the Icy Veins guide says. However, every other place on the net says otherwise.

Where am I wrong?

[Deleted]

You're ignoring the damage you would normally be doing from your standard rotation while you're casting Bladestorm.

[Razorlor]

Look at your own math, 179k > 130k

[mrchee]

You're ignoring the damage you would normally be doing from your standard rotation while you're casting Bladestorm.

This. You have to stop doing everything other than auto attack during Bladestorm. Bloodbath, you do not.

How bad at logic are the two of you?

First of all arms has insane downtime. In between CS windows when MS is down, there is nothing better to do normally than spam whirlwind if you're above 60 rage.

Second of all, BLADESTORM IS SIX SECONDS. you miss AT MOST 4 GCDs, only one of which is an ability that hits harder than a tick of bladestorm (MS) which you are only delaying by one GCD

Never comment again if you cannot understand that you are mistaken.

Look at your own math, 179k > 130k

Do I have to dignify this with a response? Very well...

179k is the damage of the abilities themselves. Bloodbath value is 30% of that or 53k

[mrchee]

The GCD is 1 second

Go back to the rogue forums, please. You're either a troll or even more ignorant than I initially believed.

[mrchee]

So let me get this straight: a longer GCD (meaning less abilities able to be used during bloodbath) makes bloodbath stronger somehow, in what passes for your mind?

Let me be clear, this is one of many lapses in your post

[Razorlor]

Do I have to dignify this with a response? Very well...

179k is the damage of the abilities themselves. Bloodbath value is 30% of that or 53k

If you use Bladestorm, you get rid of the 179k you WOULD HAVE DONE and substitute it for the 130k that Bladestorm does. If you don't understand this you are beyond help.

[mrchee]

let me put it more simply in a way that maybe even you can comprehend:

Using bladestorm without a cancelaura macro delays MS by 1 GCD; being as MS has a cooldown of 4 GCDs you miss 25% of a mortal strike worth of damage (7K) in exchange for 37K rage-free damage from 2 ticks of BS.

Using bladestorm DOES NOT cause you to lose any whirlwinds because whirlwind is your rage dump and you will not cap rage before BS ends if you are using it properly (highly doubtful in your case, let it be said)

No other spells are even potentially missed. CS lines up perfectly with bladestorm and so does reck. Stormbolt or Dragon roar can be staggered perfectly against it.

You have no cogent argument and I will no longer reply to you.

[Razorlor]

Just use Bladestorm and have inferior damage then. Enjoy LFR.

[Deleted]

Arms has downtime? Since you're lining up Bladestorm with Colossus Smash and other cooldowns/proccs, why would you ever use that as downtime? Bladestorm is not replacing downtime, it's replacing the rotation you would be using on a target with Colossus Smash.

You come here with some very basic maths and totally ignore the fact that Bladestorm stops you from using other abilities in your calculation just because "well arms has downtime", and have the nerve to question anyone else's logic.

Me and Fleugen answered your question both correctly and politely. You started acting like a child.

Take your own advice and

Never comment again if you cannot understand that you are mistaken.

[Hareem]

OP makes sense imo. You wouldnt use BS in place of an entire CS dump phase you'd use it directly after one when everything is on CD and you aren't anywhere near 60 rage to use WW for dump. You'd miss basically little to nothing because you generate rage while BSing. So all you'd compare is the +30% damage on a full bloodbath Vs the damage of a full BS.

[Jalopy]

Bladestorm is the optimal ST talent until T17 4pc, even then it's even. At least that's what I remember Collision telling me off the top of my head.

[Regar]

Let me keep it simple, I think this is a flawless explanation but I might have missed something.

THESE ARE MADE UP NUMBERS.

- Normal rotation, no BB no BS: 19k DPS

- Bladestorm tick damage: 23k DPS for "6 seconds" (might be 7 effective secs as it ticks at 0 and 6). (INCLUDING REND TICKS AND POSSIBLY OTHER STUFF).

- Bloodbath damage: +30% Damage for 12 seconds.

Ok, so now, lets say BS is a 6-7 secs DPS increase of 21% for only 6-7 seconds, every 1 minute. That's an extra 3.5% damage per minute, considering the downtime of the "increase", this number might be higher since i'm using madeup numbers but the damage per minute is the number we want since it considers the skill downtime and the extra damage given.

Now lets check BB, it is a 30% increase for 12 secs over our normal rotation. 19*1.3=24.7k DPS for 12 seconds which we don't care right now because we want to know the raw % increase over our rotation, so lets just add the downtime to the 30% bonus for 12 sec and you get an extra 5% increase on your DPS.

So now we compare.

Total damage increase over rotation:

- BB: At least 6%.
- BS: At least 3.5%. WITH MADE UP NUMBERS, IF U TRY THIS WITH REAL NUMBERS U MIGHT GET THE ACTUAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN BB AND BS

Now, both of these are affected by CDs, and bonuses from CS and stuff, but if i'm not wrong BB benefits from haste and BS does not.

The point is, that considering the skill downtime, if BS does not grant you at least a 6% overall damage increase over your base rotation, it's clearly dpswise inferior.

[Hayden272]

Please let him continue to use bladestorm and do shit dmg he is a lost hope. /endthread

[Earthbound]

Please let him continue to use bladestorm and do shit dmg he is a lost hope. /endthread

Bladestorm is the optimal ST talent until T17 4pc, even then it's even. At least that's what I remember Collision telling me off the top of my head.

also ur not allowed to /thread ur own post do u even internet

[Toijin]

Why not just use simcraft to determine which talent provides you the most dps/benefit?

#spintowin

[valky94]

dont forget that you can use Storm bolt in that 12 sec BB window instead of a WW, that buffs the dmg aswell

[Hareem]

What would probably put BB up significantly is the reck + execute BB phase.

[mrchee]

What would probably put BB up significantly is the reck + execute BB phase.

I did the math on this actually

Bloodbath is not as great for execute as you think. The proper way to use execute is to pool a full bar and dump it all within CS. Using execute outside of CS is bad because you need all that pooled rage for next CS execute dump.

Therefore you waste half the duration of bloodbath during execute phase since you are not using special attacks except during CS. So it comes out to being only about 70k additional damage for my character compared to 53k outside execute phase

So even though it may not seem intuitive, I now believe bladestorm is better than bloodbath even during execute phase. Works perfectly too, because you can use it right after the execute ragedump in CS, during time that you otherwise would only be autoattacking and refreshing rend

[Hareem]

Simdps put BB 1k higher in dps than BS in my gear