Is hunter's kitting toolkit too powerful?

[HardlyWaken]

Yeah okay i understand, but to some extent i think 2's should be playable, and i wouldn't say pvp balance should be a game of justice, but dks being countered by resto druid hunter doesnt bother me personally (because of double dk earlier on)

Im high xp myself, i don't really need tips and i dont see why i would pop all my cds in the first 20 seconds, but like i said its hard to stall with binding shot in the game, you must understand its tough to counterplay that spell on dalaran etc, on warrior i usually end up stunning myself on my healer with reflect, but they need to fix a hunter's kiting somehow, not all of it, i just wish they'd take away like frozen ammo, i mean they did fine in mop without it in 2s to.

Luckily that won't matter much. I predict when its all said and done, people will gravitate back to BM. Of course conc shot will always be there, and always has so 100% snare won't be going away. Also now and pre-wod are entirely different fish. Hunters had a blanket silence, scatter shot, (still) conc shot, a pet CC and for a time unbreakable roots on disengage. Its not hard to see why they did okay in MOP at points without frozen arrow. Of course, I wasn't real invested into MOP so I can't say too much. I hated MOP so I didn't play much through it. :/

[riptor7364]

I wouldn't say it's our kiting toolkit so much our ability to physically move players into situations they don't want to find themselves in... and keep them there.

Knock backs have existed for awhile now, the difference with Hunters is that we can use them at a distance, on a much shorter cd than other classes, and immediately follow them up with something else such as a 2nd knock back, freezing trap, binding shot, or all of the above. When chained together it can arguably put someone out of the fight longer than any other class can, especially the case if we have higher ground, which tends to scale in our favor the higher up we are.

I think a longer cd on traps would help what people see as being a problem. I don't think things like cheetah or frozen arrow are really making any real differences, if anything it's the knock backs chained together with freezing trap and binding shot that have tipped the scales in our favor.

[Knolan]

Luckily that won't matter much. I predict when its all said and done, people will gravitate back to BM. Of course conc shot will always be there, and always has so 100% snare won't be going away. Also now and pre-wod are entirely different fish. Hunters had a blanket silence, scatter shot, (still) conc shot, a pet CC and for a time unbreakable roots on disengage. Its not hard to see why they did okay in MOP at points without frozen arrow. Of course, I wasn't real invested into MOP so I can't say too much. I hated MOP so I didn't play much through it. :/

Conc shot has a CD, so it is counterable. Also, it costs a GCD, so it will effectively reduce your damage, which I find fair, you shouldn't have an absolutely free peel.

The changes of scatter shot and freezing trap seem like a buff to me, at least in the current meta. It was A LOT easier to avoid an scatter + trap on your healer at that time and, on top of that, the trap CD was heavily reduced.

Played some 2s yesterday as feral/arms, the only way we could win against hunter team was killing its partner and then pelling the hunter so we could survive to reset the fight. We lost the vast majority of games against healer/hunter since the hunter would peel the crap out of us.

[riptor7364]

Conc shot has a CD, so it is counterable. Also, it costs a GCD, so it will effectively reduce your damage, which I find fair, you shouldn't have an absolutely free peel.

The changes of scatter shot and freezing trap seem like a buff to me, at least in the current meta. It was A LOT easier to avoid an scatter + trap on your healer at that time and, on top of that, the trap CD was heavily reduced.

Played some 2s yesterday as feral/arms, the only way we could win against hunter team was killing its partner and then pelling the hunter so we could survive to reset the fight. We lost the vast majority of games against healer/hunter since the hunter would peel the crap out of us.

You're really grasping here..

Concussive Shot is on a 5 second cd with the snare lasting 6 seconds.
Auto Attack on average is 4 seconds with the snare from Frost Ammo lasting 4 seconds.

The "It can be countered" argument is a bad one, with them both doing roughly the same thing give or take 1 second. The only real difference here is the gcd that has to be used for conc which I would argue is negligible.

The "you shouldn't have a free peel" argument is also a bad one, seeing as most dps do in fact have a free peel, with no cd, conveniently baked right into their main damaging abilities in some cases.

I would bet money there were 100 other things that caused the downfall of your team in the examples you provided that had absolutely nothing to do with Hunter peeling from "Frost Ammo".

[Deleted]

Conc shot has a CD, so it is counterable. Also, it costs a GCD, so it will effectively reduce your damage, which I find fair, you shouldn't have an absolutely free peel.

The changes of scatter shot and freezing trap seem like a buff to me, at least in the current meta. It was A LOT easier to avoid an scatter + trap on your healer at that time and, on top of that, the trap CD was heavily reduced.

Played some 2s yesterday as feral/arms, the only way we could win against hunter team was killing its partner and then pelling the hunter so we could survive to reset the fight. We lost the vast majority of games against healer/hunter since the hunter would peel the crap out of us.

Conc shot has 5 sec CD with 6 sec uptime so you can still have 100% uptime on it, but yes its counterable, as a druid for example you can just shift out of it, not trying to defend frozen ammo or anything i hate it as much as everyone does even if im playing a hunter, id give up on it for a proper level 100 talent anytime, and the whole idea of scatter trap was a bit "outdated", you had many ways of landing traps, scatter was also used to interrupt or just peel, so its more of a loss than a so called buff.. you could say "but traps activate instantly" but again you will never land a trap from lets say 10-20 yards away unless the target is CCed, the travel time makes it to obvious so you have to change pretty much the whole playstyle to land traps right now, you bassicly want to hug their healer all day long. besides lets face it 2v2 is sh*t, you cant start making posts on forums because some class is facerolling in 2v2, that place has never seen a bit of balance and they made it clear a few times that its impossible to balance it without changing pretty much everything.. dont get me wrong tho, but you are just wasting time trying to prove a point that some class is dominant in 2v2, and mostly if that class is playing with a rdruid which imo.. explains everything.

[DeicideUH]

Just curiosity, but if you were to change Frost Ammo to something else (notice that Special Munitions would still exist, only Frost Ammo should be replaced for another special ammo), what would you give hunters in its place? Notice that the replacement should be useful in PvP, or else people will just use poisoned ammo or explosive ammo in its place.

IMO, I'd change it to something that increases damage (like Frost Ammo), but gives Mortal Wounds instead of slowing the target. What about you?

[HardlyWaken]

Just curiosity, but if you were to change Frost Ammo to something else (notice that Special Munitions would still exist, only Frost Ammo should be replaced for another special ammo), what would you give hunters in its place? Notice that the replacement should be useful in PvP, or else people will just use poisoned ammo or explosive ammo in its place.

IMO, I'd change it to something that increases damage (like Frost Ammo), but gives Mortal Wounds instead of slowing the target. What about you?

Make Explosive arrow knock back whoever it hits 5 yards, no ICD. :P That'll teach people to complain!

[DeicideUH]

Make Explosive arrow knock back whoever it hits 5 yards, no ICD. :P That'll teach people to complain!

I actually lol'ed when I read this.

[Deleted]

Just curiosity, but if you were to change Frost Ammo to something else (notice that Special Munitions would still exist, only Frost Ammo should be replaced for another special ammo), what would you give hunters in its place? Notice that the replacement should be useful in PvP, or else people will just use poisoned ammo or explosive ammo in its place.

IMO, I'd change it to something that increases damage (like Frost Ammo), but gives Mortal Wounds instead of slowing the target. What about you?

Exotic Munitions is crap in general, a lvl 100 talent that does 1k dmg or less, hows that any good? i mean yes with the exception of frozen ammo that is pretty toxic to play against, but its not like 90% of classes cant slow you alrdy, there are slows more powerfull than 50% yet no one bitches about those, and having access to another MS isnt a good idea at all, you alrdy got a pet with MS why would you replace it with a talent? Id rather see a slight dmg buff to poisoned ammo than having an extra slow or ms effect.

[DeicideUH]

Exotic Munitions is crap in general, a lvl 100 talent that does 1k dmg or less, hows that any good? i mean yes with the exception of frozen ammo that is pretty toxic to play against, but its not like 90% of classes cant slow you alrdy, there are slows more powerfull than 50% yet no one bitches about those, and having access to another MS isnt a good idea at all, you alrdy got a pet with MS why would you replace it with a talent? Id rather see a slight dmg buff to poisoned ammo than having an extra slow or ms effect.

The damage component can easily be buffed. And Frozen Munitions, like you said yourself, is pretty toxic. Yes, other classes can slow you, but not constantly renew the slow from range without any GCD, active action or resource cost.

About the damage component, beyond improving autoshot, I'd like to see munitions having a X% chance of applying its effects to Arcane Shot or Aimed Shot. An effect like this could be used to tune the talent's damage.

[HardlyWaken]

I actually think people are overreacting BECAUSE it only means we have to conc shot less... The fact of the matter is, against good hunters, you'd see a very minor difference... The truth of the matter is, people are (literally) grasping at things to hate with hunters. They're annoying to fight and that will always translate into OP.

[Thelxi]

It's only powerful if you are kiting one person though, the moment it's 2 people you are fucked.

[Indless]

cant you just shapeshift out of a snare? gg?

[Rabbit]

Im not even going to commit on half and incorrect things said about hunters in here, not worth it. But as a hunter, Frozen Ammo (exotic munitions needs to go - its a lazy bad talent, and frozen ammo is stupid in pvp) is op and needs to be gonnneeee.

And surv traps have nerfs coming in 6.1.

And ever try to trap a smart person at range (like 15-18 yrds+), its possible but a pain without blowing ANOTHER cc to land it. I actually miss scatter. Ill admit, 2s comps like resto druid/hunter is pretty strong if not op due to being able to piggy back off each's other cc very easily...but its 2s....its broken.

[Knolan]

cant you just shapeshift out of a snare? gg?

Sure I can, but I will get OOM sooner or later (mostly pretty fast since I need to hit something to regen my mana), and as I said, this has never happen in any season I played (OOMing because I power shifted so many times). Also, he can knockback me with explosive trap, if I charge he will use disengage, gaining post haste and gets to max range, he will pretty much repeat this process. Meanwhile I keep getting slowed over and over.

In short, I tried this strategy already and doesn't really work.

[Raugnaut]

One of two things should happen to Frozen Ammo.

1- Cause it to have a 4 second ICD, or perhaps even a 5-6 second ICD between procs.

2- Cause it to only be applied to players if they are within, say, 10 yds (Perhaps even melee range), keep the 40 yd range vs PvE.

[Srg56]

1v1 a good Hunter will kill any melee, no question. The only thing offsetting this is that so, so many Hunters are terrible.

WoW isn't really balanced around 1v1 but yes, Hunter's ability to kite is ridiculous and always has been. Plus they have way too much burst for a class that's pretty much untouchable but that's another story.

It's time to bring back the deadzone.