What did BRF do to mythic raiders?

[Deleted]

Most people didn't even know about Yogg-0 and even less people cared.

Well Ensidia cared if you read some old interviews.

[grexly75]

Obviously it proved a problem as Blood legion succumbed to it as one fo the top 2 US raiding guilds and only 2 in top 40 ranking --so far--

Precisely this, if a high ranking hardcore raiding guild succumbed to M BRF, then there must be an issue..

[OrcsRLame]

Well Ensidia cared if you read some old interviews.

Can you back up that claim with a source?

The way I remember it, Ensidia members said they never really put serious attempts into it because nobody cared that much. I remember at the time Kungen was criticized heavily on this very forum after Stars got WF Yogg-0 for that viewpoint. People claimed he was just trying to save face.

[willemh]

Can you back up that claim with a source?

The way I remember it, Ensidia members said they never really put serious attempts into it because nobody cared that much. I remember at the time Kungen was criticized heavily on this very forum after Stars got WF Yogg-0 for that viewpoint. People claimed he was just trying to save face.

Yogg0 was like protectors hardmode in terrace of endless spring. Everyone counted Sha as the last boss in that tier, while in theory protectors hardmode was harder (and dropped higher ilvl gear). Algalon certainly was the endboss of the tier, yogg+0 was just a gimmick.

[Seezer]

Yogg0 was like protectors hardmode in terrace of endless spring. Everyone counted Sha as the last boss in that tier, while in theory protectors hardmode was harder (and dropped higher ilvl gear). Algalon certainly was the endboss of the tier, yogg+0 was just a gimmick.

No. YOgg was the end boss of the tier. Just like Lei Shen was the end boss of T15. Algalon was the hard mode optional boss.

[Osmeric]

Isn't mythic supposed to be hard? So many have previously proclaimed that the game is too easy.

When they say they want the game to be hard, they don't mean for themselves.

[Tojara]

Their is no true catch up mechanic in WoD. If they balanced the raids under the assumption of zero sockets, and zero WF items than there would be a catch up mechanic of sorts. The only other catch up mechanic is the cache every 2 weeks, but much like loot, it's incredibly random. We also have the legendary ring.

Honestly I just think they either didn't have enough catch up mechanics, or tuned things way too tightly that the 'catch ups' they did put in place didn't have a grand effect. Obviously these do for the best of the best guilds out there. I imagine if you ask Method, Paragon or Midwinter if the ring makes a huge difference they would probably say it's night and day.

MoP certainly wasn't balanced around iLvL upgrades and as such, there was a certain amount of power gained every week regardless of whether you killed shit or not. The sha touched gem and meta gem gave an enormous amount of power gain, as did the epic version of the cape at the time. If you were stuck in ToT, you only need wait for the cape or the meta gem to see sizable gains. In WoD, you don't see a giant leap forward from week to week.

Notice I'm not really talking about those guilds in the top 5, or even 25. It's more for guilds beyond that right down through the bottom. SoO had iLvL upgrades too, and at a point they decided the instance was still too hard (had lots to do with it being a 14 month tier) and threw another 8 iLvLs worth of upgrades at us, which showed cause more and more people downed content.

I think Mythic BRF is hard, and it's tuned as tight as they have ever done for a raid in recent memory. The encounters are varied and many mechanics are simply very, very unforgivable. Not only do you have to perform at a high level mechanics wise, but the numbers are required at the same time, even for some of the earlier encounters. It's pretty telling when some of the better guilds in the world with some of their crazy schedules are still working on the instance a month in.

A lot of it also has to do with expectations. Lots of 25 man guilds thought they would shed their 5 bad players and instantly become way better, only to find out they had another 10 that were at another tier of bad that went unnoticed. Similarly, lots of 10 man guilds in high standing got a rude wake up call when dealing with logistics of fielding and dealing with 10-15 more people in a roster.

Simply put it comes down to a number of things. Most guilds expectations didn't change accordingly with the raid size change, Mythic BRF is a hard instance, and the catch up mechanisms in place aren't nearly as good as they were in previous expansions (at least MoP). Despite bug fixes and other changes, they have barely touched most of the bosses in Mythic BRF tuning wise. From someone raiding Mythic on a fixed schedule that doesn't deviate at all, this tier has been a blast thus far. Blast Furnace or Blackhand might have changed my mind, but I'll never know. I'll get to try them with the +5iLvL buff and see how they go. For us it just makes farm easier and possibly the last two progression bosses much more bearable. I'd figure they would have nerfed Mythic Blackhand by now, but I guess we will see what happens with 5 more iLvLs.

[Slicer299]

None of your examples really count imo. I'm pretty sure Deathwing died in the first lockout. H LK was gated behind limited attempts, (though I think he would have been the hardest boss ever in an objective sense if he wasn't) and from what I recall, no one was really trying Yogg-0.

To expound on that last point, the Ulduar race was all about Algalon. Everyone was racing to get WF on him, and most top guilds went to farm hours after killing him as they considered the tier to be over. I remember it like it was yesterday. We got practically hourly updates on mmo-champ for the Algalon race, it was this huge deal. By the time Stars killed Yogg-0, I hadn't even heard of Alone in the Darkness beyond seeing it in the achievement list

Heroic Rag, T11 heroic bosses, and all of mop would probably be better comparisons to mythic Blackhand.

All of my points are valid, regardless if you want to include them or not. Every boss I mentioned, and every boss you mentioned, took longer to be killed than either Imp or Blackhand. Algalon, Heroic Rag, all of tier 11, all of MoP, every single one of them took longer to day from both the release of their raid and from the time they were first accessible if they were gated than anything in WoD.

If you take the time to actually research those kills, you will see that as the years and tiers have passed, the toughest bosses die quicker and quicker. So there is no basis in reality where Blackhand can be said to be more difficult than any of those previous end of tier bosses. BRF was released on Feb 3rd, but Mythic could not even be attempted until Feb 10th. By Feb 20th Mythic Blackhand was dead. In no way can an end of tier boss be labeled as being too difficult when its dead just 10 days after it could be first attempted.

Even just going back to SoO, 25 Heroic Garrosh wasn't killed until October 1st, 14 days after the first was first accessible. Ra-Den took nearly a month, not being downed until April 11th after being first made accessible on March 12th. So, again, Mythic Blackhand can not be said to be as difficult and especially not more difficult than any of those bosses.

[Kev MW]

So, again, Mythic Blackhand can not be said to be as difficult and especially not more difficult than any of those bosses.

Of course it could, if you're willing to accept that people are better at the game now than they've ever been.

[Hildrande]

Their is no true catch up mechanic in WoD. If they balanced the raids under the assumption of zero sockets, and zero WF items than there would be a catch up mechanic of sorts. The only other catch up mechanic is the cache every 2 weeks, but much like loot, it's incredibly random. We also have the legendary ring.

They are going to have to nerf BRF Mythic halfway from here to 6.2 or very few guilds are going to be able to get very far. Overall there seems to be alot less people doing Mythic raiding now than did Heroic raiding during 5.4, mainly because of the 20-man transition.

[Dangg]

No. YOgg was the end boss of the tier. Just like Lei Shen was the end boss of T15. Algalon was the hard mode optional boss.

Yes, but not Yogg+0.

[Deleted]

BRF did nothing to mythic raiders. It just further and more clearly marked the difference between HC raiders and Mythic raiders.

1. If you are a HC raider you should still have a while to go until you go 10/10 HC. But you don't care either way because you are gearing up and progressing solidly through the bosses.
2. If you are a Mythic raider (skills-wise) you should be 10/10 HC by now with maybe some (2~4) mythic kills.
3. If you are (or feel you are) good enough to raid mythic, but are still doing heroic bosses either you are not as good as you think or you are raiding with people who are not as good as you and thus are keeping you back.

Guilds bleed raiders because #3. To clear HC you need to perform the bosses dance (tactic) well enough while keeping up good numbers. Mythic requires near to flawless execution to get a kill.

[Deleted]

At this moment guilds are bleeding raiders at the rate of 1-2 per day. its bad really bad. guilds actually trying to recruit players that they dont even have the same progress as them. for example 8-9mythic guilds poatching 10/10hc players.

Did you make this up all by yourself? Because my guild sure isnt "bleeding raiders at the rate of 1-2 per day".

[Orwell7]

Slicer299, you forget that Blackrock Foundry is a "half-tier".
25 Heroic Garrosh took 14 days, but those 3 resets provided guilds a whole new tier of raid gear!

ToT Heroic's ilvl was 535; SoO Heroic dropped 572! That is a _MASSIVE_ ilvl jump, cannot be compared to the +10 ilvl thats from M HM to M BRF!
1 reset worth of gear provided 20-30% dps jump in SoO, while 1 reset in BRF provides only 2-5%.

The reason why it's hard right now because it cannot be overgeared. People just can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.

[Deleted]

There is no net loss of guild now, or at any time. There will always be enough raiding guilds to support the number of raiders for the content they want to access. For the entire duration of WoW, there have always been guilds failing and other ones springing up or merging. The fact is that most people who run guilds give it a fair old go but don't always know how to cope with all challenges; when one of those challenges rears its ugly head then the guild is in mortal danger. It's as simple as that and if you're thinking there's a particular loss of them now then you're probably just noticing it in a way you didn't before.

After all, if so many guild really were going tits up then recruitment would be a doddle (which you can see from other posts on this forums that it isn't).

[HeiAggra]

Yes I agree that BRF is thougher and the experienced 'slower' progress in part explains the lower number of BRF mythic guilds and it is proably one of the reasons why several guilds started disintigrating. However plenty of other guilds (including many of those with 4-5/7 HM) have also gotten into trouble simply on member count required for heroic progress. The guilds that got 8/10 or 9/10 on the first or second week for instance and then simply made no progress.

It's just sad how ppl got bad habbit's since Cata.
BC and LK ppl would wippe tons of times on bosses because it was hard but still you would next jump back in the next day and i loved that. Now ppl want to go into a raid and get free loot. But that's my opinion. There is no sense of achive anymore

[jijuiji]

Coming from OPs server as one of the guilds still pushing progression, the main reason so many guilds are struggling is because the lack of healers.

In Highmaul you could get away with it to an extent, and there was a number of guilds with the same progress as us.

Now, there is no guilds competing with us, instead we're all fighting for players lfg on wowprogress/forums to rebuild. There simply isnt enough healers who are of a mythic raiding level for enough guilds to progress efficiently. Highmaul was much easier with an average raider healing.

We've resorted to a break this week and offering 4-5 healers a trial for a trial in a HC farm run lol

[Barnabas]

Precisely this, if a high ranking hardcore raiding guild succumbed to M BRF, then there must be an issue..

RL is the harder than any raid Blizzard will ever create.

[willemh]

Of course it could, if you're willing to accept that people are better at the game now than they've ever been.

Coudn't agree more. Altho you have to admit a fight like Lich King 25man Heroic without the zone buff was really, really, difficult. Even when you dont count the limited attempts. Both mechanically and number wise that fight was a hell of an encounter. Ragnaros really is up there aswell.

I have to agree that the organisation and preparation of current top guilds far exceeds that of top guilds back in the days, altho it would be nice to hear Paragons opinion on this, how was their organisation and preparation in ICC or Firelands compared to now, and how much have they improved? I really wonder. They should have the best insight on this I guess since they were at the top both back then and now.

[kamuimac]

most of my friends from before WoD quit befoire or very soon after starting to raid mythic - and reason was very simple - they realy enjoyed tight knit atmosphere of 10 man and cba with clusterfuck of 20 man - so from my small sample size no surprise guilds have tons of trouble staying alive.

and if someone doesnt want to raid mythic there is 0 incentive to raid with guild atm due to lfg tool - so guilds got struck from both sides and crumble. maybe its time to rethink guild system alltogether in wow with the x-realm being as popular as it is atm.