[Megathread] The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited

[Fkiolaris]

You either just get used to it, or you get over it.

And you technically CAN be a Magicka guy with sword and shield...you just have to NOT use the sword and shield and instead use magicka class skills while those weapons are equipped. It's not optimal, but it IS possible.

I'm playing a Sword+Board Necromancer and I like it well enough, it's a decent mix of Stamina, Health and Magicka (mostly Health and Stamina, though). My main complaint with ESO prior to playing that class was how squishy I was and that I couldn't easily do open world content. Don't have that problem at all on my Necro, though I still can't solo world bosses, but I'm also only level 30 and only decently geared. I can solo most public dungeons though.

Depending on what content you want to be doing at lvl50, I am not sure how viable that set up is other than for normal, non-DLC dungeons and everything overland other than perhaps soloing bosses (expansion ones anyway). Also, at 30 it's just too early to make a judgement of things and I would say enjoy having a bit of a challenge on overland content before it all becomes entirely trivial.

Regarding the combat, it is as you said. The first time I tried this game I put it down for a year because I just couldn't get used to it at all (I was trying to play the game like WoW). When I came back a couple of years ago and gave it another go, it just clicked for the most part and I enjoyed the game much more, at least for the time I played it.

[Witchblade77]

I hate the weapon skills. They are identical on all classes, might as well have one class where you could choose what you wanted instead.

I hate that I can't be a Magicka guy with sword and shield. I would love that for cosmetic reasons.

I'm not a fan of light and heavy attacks, and I hate that I have to switch weapons to get more skills.

you have variety of weapons to chose from. you could use more class skills.

light and heavy attacks as well as weapon switching i wouldn't call that limiting as much as just peculiarity of this game. it probably doesn't help, but light attack weaving etc is my major point of dislike for combat in this game as well. unfortunately, its going nowhere.

but... unless you are trying to push harder content, you can do pretty much whatever you want. (except taunt of a tank, don't do that, please - tanking in this game is a clusterfuck as it is)

[Phurox]

But if you run with sword and shield and are a Magicka class, you'd suffer from light armor in melee and lack of Magicka regen with heavy attack.

[Witchblade77]

5 pc light, 2 pc heavy. heavy armor for things like legs and chest. enough to let you use half the passives from heavy armor tree, while also utilizing magika regen from light. can also use magika regen mundus, forgot which one that was, atronach maybe? and have magika regen enchants on your jewelry. can also have some health enchants on at least some of your armor.

I have a hybrid tank that I've been two manning things on with my SO, while he was still playing. she wears 2 pc heavy, 5 pc light with mix of enchants. her abilities are primarily magika, as splitting focus between 3 stats instead of two (health and magika) actualy left her with ability to do SOME damage AND have some survivability. it means she has to conserve stamina primarily for blocks and dodges and nothing else, but it was worth it.

as long as you are not trying to push the numbers/progression, there is room to mess around there.

PTS is great for that as you can create max level template character and they give you all the gear in the game, a ton of gold, etc and all skill lines maxed out, so you can spec, respec and test until you are happy with a result.

leveling up your abilities in this game does require patience. lots and lots of patience. they are not exactly intuitive and that's another thing i dislike. but that's the thing. you either accept it or you don't.

[Phurox]

5 pc light, 2 pc heavy. heavy armor for things like legs and chest. enough to let you use half the passives from heavy armor tree, while also utilizing magika regen from light. can also use magika regen mundus, forgot which one that was, atronach maybe? and have magika regen enchants on your jewelry. can also have some health enchants on at least some of your armor.

I have a hybrid tank that I've been two manning things on with my SO, while he was still playing. she wears 2 pc heavy, 5 pc light with mix of enchants. her abilities are primarily magika, as splitting focus between 3 stats instead of two (health and magika) actualy left her with ability to do SOME damage AND have some survivability. it means she has to conserve stamina primarily for blocks and dodges and nothing else, but it was worth it.

as long as you are not trying to push the numbers/progression, there is room to mess around there.

PTS is great for that as you can create max level template character and they give you all the gear in the game, a ton of gold, etc and all skill lines maxed out, so you can spec, respec and test until you are happy with a result.

leveling up your abilities in this game does require patience. lots and lots of patience. they are not exactly intuitive and that's another thing i dislike. but that's the thing. you either accept it or you don't.

But running around like that is probably viable when soloing content, but won't you be kicked in a dungeon running around like that?

[Witchblade77]

But running around like that is probably viable when soloing content, but won't you be kicked in a dungeon running around like that?

you might be. you might not be. if you are doing normals or non DLC vets, most the time people don't care, especially if you seem to be performing the role you signed up for and the run is going smoothly enough. DLC vets is where you cannot do that anymore.

but... that's pretty normal for every mmo. harder content? they want you to play meta.

at least there is room to play around with how you play your character at all. /shrug.

[Ghostpanther]

You either just get used to it, or you get over it.

And you technically CAN be a Magicka guy with sword and shield...you just have to NOT use the sword and shield and instead use magicka class skills while those weapons are equipped. It's not optimal, but it IS possible.

I'm playing a Sword+Board Necromancer and I like it well enough, it's a decent mix of Stamina, Health and Magicka (mostly Health and Stamina, though). My main complaint with ESO prior to playing that class was how squishy I was and that I couldn't easily do open world content. Don't have that problem at all on my Necro, though I still can't solo world bosses, but I'm also only level 30 and only decently geared. I can solo most public dungeons though.

That is true. Or they can stop playing the game. I do not think that is what the developers want however.

ESO is a really good MMO, but it has it's flaws. The controls and how each class does not feel that distinct, is some of them. If the developers and those in charge of the game's directions, ignore those, then they should not expect more active players.

[Katchii]

That is true. Or they can stop playing the game. I do not think that is what the developers want however.

ESO is a really good MMO, but it has it's flaws. The controls and how each class does not feel that distinct, is some of them. If the developers and those in charge of the game's directions, ignore those, then they should not expect more active players.

100% Agreed.

It's a good enough game for story, immersion and exploring. But combat is honestly pretty terrible, IMO. Light attack weaving feels and looks awful, the lack of class distinction is a downer (though not a game breaker), but the worst is the severe limitation on abilities and the fact that you have to literally change weapons in order to access your full set. The only word I can use to describe it is functional, because it's obviously good enough to work, but it doesn't feel good at all to play.

I have to be in the mood for just story and narrative in order to stomach playing ESO, because nothing else is good enough alone to warrant playing it, IMO.

[Aliven]

100% Agreed.

It's a good enough game for story, immersion and exploring. But combat is honestly pretty terrible, IMO. Light attack weaving feels and looks awful, the lack of class distinction is a downer (though not a game breaker), but the worst is the severe limitation on abilities and the fact that you have to literally change weapons in order to access your full set. The only word I can use to describe it is functional, because it's obviously good enough to work, but it doesn't feel good at all to play.

I have to be in the mood for just story and narrative in order to stomach playing ESO, because nothing else is good enough alone to warrant playing it, IMO.

They could make a change like DC mmo, they too had both weapons and skills. In update some time ago they created a system that let player focus on skills, weapons or both so you can play only using skills, weapons or weave them together.

Pretty awesome.

[Katchii]

They could make a change like DC mmo, they too had both weapons and skills. In update some time ago they created a system that let player focus on skills, weapons or both so you can play only using skills, weapons or weave them together.

Pretty awesome.

You can do that in ESO already though, based on what you put your skill point into, you just HAVE to have a weapon equipped in each slot to access all your abilities, but you don't technically have to use the weapon, which makes it feel clunky as hell.

I play either a stam Warden or a tank Necromancer, both of them have the same weapons in both slots because for the builds I'm using I need to split them evenly across both bars to be effective. It would feel pretty great if I had access to all those skills all the time but instead I have to be switching bars, and therefore weapons, constantly throughout a fight making combat just feel terrible.

What they should do is just have all action buttons available all the time, but skills that require specific weapons to be equipped just aren't usable unless that weapon is equipped...or even better IMO, would be to have the skill auto equip the right weapon if it's in a weapon slot so that you don't have to tap the weapon switch button all the time.

[Witchblade77]

You can do that in ESO already though, based on what you put your skill point into, you just HAVE to have a weapon equipped in each slot to access all your abilities, but you don't technically have to use the weapon, which makes it feel clunky as hell.

I play either a stam Warden or a tank Necromancer, both of them have the same weapons in both slots because for the builds I'm using I need to split them evenly across both bars to be effective. It would feel pretty great if I had access to all those skills all the time but instead I have to be switching bars, and therefore weapons, constantly throughout a fight making combat just feel terrible.

What they should do is just have all action buttons available all the time, but skills that require specific weapons to be equipped just aren't usable unless that weapon is equipped...or even better IMO, would be to have the skill auto equip the right weapon if it's in a weapon slot so that you don't have to tap the weapon switch button all the time.

it won't work.

1. there are way too many action buttons in ESO given all the possible skills and a lot of people have variety of them trained and morphed for the whole build switching thing. unless you mean have both bars visible rather then all abilities visible - you can technically do that with addons on pc, but... that leads me to second point.
2. at will bar swapping as a mechanic is at this point part of ESO identity. the main difference between this and GW2 is that ESO lets you swap whenever, while GW2 puts swap on a cooldown. ESO players really REALLY hate cooldowns, cast times, what have you, as every time developers trying to mess with them, the outcry on the forums is immediate and loud. and ESO players really love to be able to time these things themselves.

unfortunately, at this point light attack weaving is part of the combat identity for ESO. if they change it? it may end up being star wars galaxies nge. some people liked the changes. for most of the old guard - it killed the game, so they left. I have a bad feeling that if ZoS tries to chase new players at the cost of existing ones that like the combat as it is right now? it will not end well in a long run.

and I have weaving. I. HATE. it. but I know too many people who play specifically BECAUSE it is a combat mechanic that exists in ESO. its here to stay. unfortunately. you either accept it and learn it, play the aspects of the game that do not require it, or... don't play :/

[Katchii]

it won't work.

1. there are way too many action buttons in ESO given all the possible skills and a lot of people have variety of them trained and morphed for the whole build switching thing. unless you mean have both bars visible rather then all abilities visible - you can technically do that with addons on pc, but... that leads me to second point.
2. at will bar swapping as a mechanic is at this point part of ESO identity. the main difference between this and GW2 is that ESO lets you swap whenever, while GW2 puts swap on a cooldown. ESO players really REALLY hate cooldowns, cast times, what have you, as every time developers trying to mess with them, the outcry on the forums is immediate and loud. and ESO players really love to be able to time these things themselves.

unfortunately, at this point light attack weaving is part of the combat identity for ESO. if they change it? it may end up being star wars galaxies nge. some people liked the changes. for most of the old guard - it killed the game, so they left. I have a bad feeling that if ZoS tries to chase new players at the cost of existing ones that like the combat as it is right now? it will not end well in a long run.

and I have weaving. I. HATE. it. but I know too many people who play specifically BECAUSE it is a combat mechanic that exists in ESO. its here to stay. unfortunately. you either accept it and learn it, play the aspects of the game that do not require it, or... don't play :/

I'm not at all convinced that if ZoS were to make all 10 skills + 2 ultimates usable all the time, provided you have the correct weapon equipped, that it would destroy the game or community.

I never argued to remove light attack weaving, as much as I dislike it, I agree that it's kind of part of the combat identity. I don't think making all skill slots and 2 ultimates available for use at all times (again, provided the right weapon is equipped) would have the same effect.

At will bar swapping as a mechanic is cumbersome and annoying. GW2 having it on cooldown is a bit different because it really is a decision point and part of the combat. The fact that ESO doesn't have a cooldown on it means that it really is just an annoyance, it's not really a choice like it is in GW2 because you can do it whenever you want already anyway, you just have to tap a button to access this other bar JUST to tap the button. The only restrictions are that you have the second weapon set equipped and how fast you can hit the button.

[Aliven]

You can do that in ESO already though, based on what you put your skill point into, you just HAVE to have a weapon equipped in each slot to access all your abilities, but you don't technically have to use the weapon, which makes it feel clunky as hell.

I play either a stam Warden or a tank Necromancer, both of them have the same weapons in both slots because for the builds I'm using I need to split them evenly across both bars to be effective. It would feel pretty great if I had access to all those skills all the time but instead I have to be switching bars, and therefore weapons, constantly throughout a fight making combat just feel terrible.

What they should do is just have all action buttons available all the time, but skills that require specific weapons to be equipped just aren't usable unless that weapon is equipped...or even better IMO, would be to have the skill auto equip the right weapon if it's in a weapon slot so that you don't have to tap the weapon switch button all the time.

Is there a build that dont use any weapon attacks and just use pure skills as it rotation that can be sustained in prolonged fight? Because that is what im talking about.

[Katchii]

Is there a build that dont use any weapon attacks and just use pure skills as it rotation that can be sustained in prolonged fight? Because that is what im talking about.

No, there is not. Efficient and effective regeneration of both stamina and magicka require the use of heavy attacks (with the appropriate weapon type). But you don't need those on your bar in order to use them.

I meant that you can have nothing but skills and spells on your bar, no weapon attacks, but you're still pretty much required to use light and heavy weapon attacks to be effective in combat.

I would be fully on board with what you're saying too. I misunderstood what you were saying, my bad.

[Witchblade77]

I'm not at all convinced that if ZoS were to make all 10 skills + 2 ultimates usable all the time, provided you have the correct weapon equipped, that it would destroy the game or community.

I never argued to remove light attack weaving, as much as I dislike it, I agree that it's kind of part of the combat identity. I don't think making all skill slots and 2 ultimates available for use at all times (again, provided the right weapon is equipped) would have the same effect.

At will bar swapping as a mechanic is cumbersome and annoying. GW2 having it on cooldown is a bit different because it really is a decision point and part of the combat. The fact that ESO doesn't have a cooldown on it means that it really is just an annoyance, it's not really a choice like it is in GW2 because you can do it whenever you want already anyway, you just have to tap a button to access this other bar JUST to tap the button. The only restrictions are that you have the second weapon set equipped and how fast you can hit the button.

people use bar swap to animation cancel is what i'm saying. ZoS fiddled with block this patch and people are losing their minds. imagine if they didn't have bar swap at will and instead of automatic. not to mention. if it swaps on skill use, what is even the point of having it? what it will actualy seem like is that there is a delay at activating certain skill but its an automatic delay rather then the one under your control.

[Katchii]

people use bar swap to animation cancel is what i'm saying. ZoS fiddled with block this patch and people are losing their minds. imagine if they didn't have bar swap at will and instead of automatic. not to mention. if it swaps on skill use, what is even the point of having it? what it will actualy seem like is that there is a delay at activating certain skill but its an automatic delay rather then the one under your control.

They could still use that, since you could still switch weapons in my idea. I'm saying instead of having 2 bars with 5 abilities + 1 ultimate each that are dictated by which weapon you have equipped, you'd have 10 abilities and 2 ultimates to choose from at any given time, and still be able to weapon switch when you want.

The only thing my idea does is remove the cumbersome and annoying requirement to actually hit the weapon swap button in order to have access to all your abilities.

[Witchblade77]

They could still use that, since you could still switch weapons in my idea. I'm saying instead of having 2 bars with 5 abilities + 1 ultimate each that are dictated by which weapon you have equipped, you'd have 10 abilities and 2 ultimates to choose from at any given time, and still be able to weapon switch when you want.

The only thing my idea does is remove the cumbersome and annoying requirement to actually hit the weapon swap button in order to have access to all your abilities.

you miss the part where i mentioned animation delay. when its out of your hands - it feels worse because there is no buffer of hitting two buttons instead of one now. if there is no animation delay (no idea how they would accomplish THAT.) then weapon swap becomes completely pointless, it might as well not exist. which changes the feel of combat.

[Aliven]

No, there is not. Efficient and effective regeneration of both stamina and magicka require the use of heavy attacks (with the appropriate weapon type). But you don't need those on your bar in order to use them.

I meant that you can have nothing but skills and spells on your bar, no weapon attacks, but you're still pretty much required to use light and heavy weapon attacks to be effective in combat.

I would be fully on board with what you're saying too. I misunderstood what you were saying, my bad.

In DC you choose one of 3 passives and it locks other 2. It boosts you mana/stamina regen so you dont need to use weapons.
It could work the same here. We have spammable spells and abilities.

[Katchii]

you miss the part where i mentioned animation delay. when its out of your hands - it feels worse because there is no buffer of hitting two buttons instead of one now. if there is no animation delay (no idea how they would accomplish THAT.) then weapon swap becomes completely pointless, it might as well not exist. which changes the feel of combat.

I'm not understanding where the disconnect is. I'm not proposing to get rid of weapon swapping as it currently works mechanically in combat, I'm proposing getting rid of the NEED to weapon swap just to gain access to the different bars. That's all. You could still weapon swap on command, animation cancel to your hearts delight and combat would feel mechanically identical. The only thing it would eliminate is the NEED to weapon swap so you can access the weapon skills on your other bar, because you needed to spread them across both bars so you always have one accessible...or whatever.

If they were to run with my proposal, which I doubt, and were to balance/ change combat around not having weapon swap being used to animation cancel and that basically eliminated the need to weapon swap and/or light attack weave...I personally wouldn't complain. The only reason people do them is because it's required to perform optimally, not because it's inherently good design and fun. I haven't seen a single person say they LIKED doing it, only that it was required in order to perform well and that you should just get used to it if you want to perform at high levels. If they were to make changes that allowed people to continue to perform at high levels while removing that epileptic seizure looking combat I'd imagine more people than not would be happy, and a great many more people would try out and stick with the game.

I don't have faith that they'd be able to pull it off without royally breaking something, just saying that if they COULD, I don't think it would destroy the game's community like you seem to think it would and would actually cause it to get bigger and better than it is now.

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In DC you choose one of 3 passives and it locks other 2. It boosts you mana/stamina regen so you dont need to use weapons.
It could work the same here. We have spammable spells and abilities.

That would be amazing if they could do it here, would allow the classes play and feel much more distinct from each other.

[Witchblade77]

I'm not understanding where the disconnect is. I'm not proposing to get rid of weapon swapping as it currently works mechanically in combat, I'm proposing getting rid of the NEED to weapon swap just to gain access to the different bars. That's all. You could still weapon swap on command, animation cancel to your hearts delight and combat would feel mechanically identical. The only thing it would eliminate is the NEED to weapon swap so you can access the weapon skills on your other bar, because you needed to spread them across both bars so you always have one accessible...or whatever.

If they were to run with my proposal, which I doubt, and were to balance/ change combat around not having weapon swap being used to animation cancel and that basically eliminated the need to weapon swap and/or light attack weave...I personally wouldn't complain. The only reason people do them is because it's required to perform optimally, not because it's inherently good design and fun. I haven't seen a single person say they LIKED doing it, only that it was required in order to perform well and that you should just get used to it if you want to perform at high levels. If they were to make changes that allowed people to continue to perform at high levels while removing that epileptic seizure looking combat I'd imagine more people than not would be happy, and a great many more people would try out and stick with the game.

I don't have faith that they'd be able to pull it off without royally breaking something, just saying that if they COULD, I don't think it would destroy the game's community like you seem to think it would and would actually cause it to get bigger and better than it is now.

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That would be amazing if they could do it here, would allow the classes play and feel much more distinct from each other.

the disconnect is that you assume that there will be no delay between the button press of the skill and actual swap. I'm not sure how to make it come across any further. right now that slight delay is covered up by having to press two separate buttons, rather then just one. if you are pressing the button directly for the skill that will be swapping the bar - there will be a delay firing that skill. it will feel bad. ZoS will not be able to remove that delay. how do i know? they have tried to normalize shield block animations. the result most certainly does NOT feel the way they said it would feel.

weapon swap with a separate button as strange as it sounds, makes that delay feel slightly less crappy, because you cannot even see the second button to press until swap is processed.

that said, apparently they are working on viability of class skills to make them more desirable, rather then defaulting to weapon skills etc. to make classes feel more distinct. how well this will actualy work? who the heck even knows anymore. there are many things about this game that I love, but i have no illusions about combat significantly changing. why? too many people like current mechanics. even the change you propose - despite it sounding insignificant to you - will change that feel too much