Troll models in 6.2.

[Ramz]

I will have a look on catform, thanks for noting.

But I have a question - did some other tweaks to other character models happened? I only know that nelf females got their eyelashes and falling animation back. So have you noticed something else?

[Syegfryed]

here some pics, i know the fangs are supposed to be big, but this is too much



http://imgur.com/a/heuf3

[Oggudrai]

And we're certain this doesn't happen to other non-Troll catforms?

It's a problem regardless of course but it'd be interesting to know. I can't really check atm.

[Syegfryed]

And we're certain this doesn't happen to other non-Troll catforms?

It's a problem regardless of course but it'd be interesting to know. I can't really check atm.

dont happen with my tauren and with a worgen who i did to check, cant say about night elf

[Oggudrai]

I'm wary to make this absolute statement, since we don't know if it happens to the Nelf cat form... but I wouldn't be surprised if this only afflicts Trolls...

It's just how they treat anything related to playable Trolls it seems, apart from the female Troll, who still has some flaws, granted...

If Tyson Murphy's continued insistence that there's no further problems with the Troll male beyond the one braid, (specifically insisting that there's no issues with its textures: https://twitter.com/Tysmurph/status/788486533724508160), is reflective of what Blizzard's remaning artists' attitudes are then I'm starting to get the feeling that this has been a lost battle from the very beginning...

It seems that's just how little of a concern the dissatisfied players and fans of this race are to them overall...

[Ramz]

Thankfully I don't pay them anymore otherwise I'd be far more angry xD

I don't know if it's a matter of pride/ ignorance/ lazyness/ whatever but honestly if players are putting this much effort to gather feedback, pinpointing everything then PERHAPS there are issues that needs to be adressed. It's not a matter of bashing the Blizzard workers but a matter of certain principals - to simply put effort into your work and finish it.

If they're stubborn and dismiss the concerns then they'll gradually lose players anyway. The same thing was with Holinka and PvP, and the same thing was with WoD and dismissing people's concerns regarding garrison and overall content.
And same is with models - since we're stuck with them to play with then they deserve to be as much polished as it's possible.

If not, then they should abandon for good "quality" as their trademark. - at least in WoW case, as I heard Overwatch is doing pretty good (but I'm not a fan of shooters so I'm not their audience).

It's a huge pity because I didn't intend to leave WoW. But Blizzard made me with their constant diss to feedback, the direction the lore is head in, and overall lack attention to details.

[Oggudrai]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said, except that I'm pretty wary of attributing anything to laziness, I don't think they are and I want to give them that much credit. I think it's more about cutting corners for costeffectiveness/to reach a deadline, and hoping people roll with it/don't notice it (like what happened to female tauren when they had their fur patterns copied over from males until certain players called it out long and hard enough to change it). Sadly it's just a historical fact that a lot of those cut corners are apparent when it comes to playable Trolls, even as far back as WC3 I might argue - even though those missions were added back in via the frozen throne (albeit without voice acting). So it's becoming very hard not to claim with some confidence that they consider it more acceptable to give Troll fans/players the shaft once they do need to cut corners.

Whether or not pride/arrogance enters into this, all I'll say is that, while I agree that they should acknowledge and address this and other feedback in the name of principle and to demonstrate some integrity, the fact is that Legion is doing very well, and if their confidence that it will keep doing well is founded in reality then it could be argued they don't need to worry about alienating and seeming dismissive of certainly players. From a cynical, purely business point of view; they can afford not to care..

And I might not have complained so much if it weren't for the fact that they tried to give expectations to the contrary; that they as a company hold "quality" as a core value, like you said, or making empty promises about maintaining people's attachments to their characters and that they'd be "the same, but HD", OR making Vol'jin warchief, playing him up and having a book written about him; throwing Darkspear/Troll fans a lore bone...

I am well aware that we're a tiny minority, but given the above, the expectations they gave us and considering how long we've been neglected it shouldn't surprise them when some of us finally call them out on it... especially when we pay the same bloody subscription fee as everyone else, the least i expect is a model on par with the others. Artistically, in terms of textures; the Troll male is inferior.

Vol'jin's unique model is more polygonal and lower res than the troll male, yet Vol'jin has better muscle definition in both shape of limbs and his textures, the same regarding muscle definition can be said about the male dwarf, draenei, and even the female Troll and I will not be convinced otherwise because I'm not blind and I have -some- understanding of muscle anatomy, being something of an artist myself...

[Ramz]

I'm also not blind and If I see a blurred texture then I will also call on it. I feel that they tried to make of us fools that don't know what they're talking about.
Here is a perfect example that same resolution doesn't necessary mean same quality :



Worgen looked nice, and troll one is good enough reason to fire someone for it.

When they argue with "I disagre" it's like basicly stating "I won't do anything about it then". And the subject is over.
While all they had to do is to hire ONE PERSON to fix this stuff (And hire one person that have a track of the lore!). Majority of stuff is not really that time consuming and they could update stuff via hotfixes. It really doesn't have to be patch-size content.

But if they want to continue doing embarrasing and incompetent stuff, then they're free to do it.

[Doomaz]

im pretty sure that is the old troll ddruid cat form texture, they look really pretty now

[Ramz]

No, the colours are still ugly and don't match the bear form, and they still have night elf eyebrows.

But the point was that during the release there was a massive gap between quality and the "resolution" is not the issue here.

[Oggudrai]

I mean, honestly, who can tell me, with a straight face, that these models:



Look equally good? The female and the Draenei look more crisp, they're more vibrant, they have better details and nuance. The Troll male's arms, at least the shoulders and upper arms, are pretty "flat", and his veins compared to the Draenei's are almost invisible... and most notably, again, his thighs have close to no muscle definition, at least none that make sense.

I've said that a few times now, so I'm actually gonna more specifically break down what I mean by that:



What we can arguably see, which is admittedly not something I feel is usually very visible through the skin if I'm not mistaken, is the "divide" between the vastus lateralis (which is fine, it's pretty much curved how it's meant to) and the tensor fasciae latae muscle. Everything else is missing... I can barely, if at all, make out the rectus femoris (due to lacking details in textures), and the vastus medialis looks like it's just atrophied and wasted away (because there's just no curve or contours there, it's flat), again, compared to either of the models above (and Vol'jin's model, for that matter). While I'm at it, the hamstring muscle group, which was at least hinted at through the old troll male's textures, don't look in any way visible when you see the new model from behind... Which is rather odd for a race with "powerful legs" and "no excess body fat" (source: Blizzard's own old Troll compendium) wouldn't you say?

He talked about there being "less room for pixels" because his feet were bigger than the female Troll... That goes for the Orc male too, why aren't his of similar quality to that of the Troll male? In terms of the rest of the body though, I came to consider that one potential "excuse" (going by the logic I was presented with) for his lacking muscle definition and texture clarity could be because he's such a "slim" model... But that wouldn't make sense, the Nightborne are probably even more lithe, and yet their textures are fine; the muscle groups that are all screwed up on the Troll male (triceps, thighs) are defined just as well on the Nightborn as they are on any of the better looking PC models. Not to mention the fact that they actually slimmed the Troll male down somewhat from what he used to be, so... but if it'd have been needed to bulk him up a bit more to "make room" for better textures, then why didn't they? Vol'jin's bulk, or something close to it would've been fine, and they already buffed up the Draenei male and, to a lesser extent, the Nelf male...

Anyhow, again, Mr. Murphy's not at Blizzard, we have no confirmation that what he thinks is common there, though it's probably a strong bet that they too disagree... I've been trying to go over how we've gone about making and giving this feedback and I'm not sure I can see where we were so wrong in certain points as to make them just dismiss any possibility that we might be on to something.

We were technically wrong about the textures being lower resolution, okay, fair enough... the textures still look bad though, so latching on to how we were wrong about what the cause is and just ignoring an issue that several people have pointed to isn't productive. What would've been productive is to look at the fact that we saw something off, perhaps correcting us where we were wrong, and at least entertaining the idea that perhaps something is off and then considering what the real cause might be.

All things that could've been achieved if someone bothered engaging in a dialogue with us... I've proven through my interactions with Tyson Murphy on twitter that I am fully capable of being civil and calm (even given twitter's accursed character limit) when I'm actually approached instead of just ignored.

I've already gone over this before, probably, but it's not even that I'm demanding changes right this instant, or even asking for an ETA... I could excuse a lot of things in the name of costeffectiveness/deadlines/tightness in art resources etc etc. ... But it's the dismissal through the absolute radio silence that's the biggest offender for me, as a former customer.

[Syegfryed]

i only can say blizzard dont like trolls anymore, at least the playable ones( cause the zandalari models are damn good) and i feel they will do nothing even if in the future we get sub-races, and this is pretty sad

[Syegfryed]

just an update to be know, they actually fixed this problem with troll druid forms, i think on the today patch, finally i can play with him again

[Oggudrai]

At least that's something, congrats Syegfryed!

[Ramz]

Sorry for small necro, but only because of recently WoW Model Viewer was able to have decent Legion version I was able to edit troll catform so three major issues got adressed,

those were :
- night elf eyeborws
- color disparity with bear form
- hair texture on ears.

And so here are first edits, I'm not saying they're 100% perfect now, but this is how I believe makes them look better:



















There is more to come, I also want to make pure orange tiger version. I'm gonna upload all the models with textures for modders if they'd like to implement it somewhere or play with it just like I did.

[FelPlague]

Sorry for small necro, but only because of recently WoW Model Viewer was able to have decent Legion version I was able to edit troll catform so three major issues got adressed,

those were :
- night elf eyeborws
- color disparity with bear form
- hair texture on ears.

And so here are first edits, I'm not saying they're 100% perfect now, but this is how I believe makes them look better:



There is more to come, I also want to make pure orange tiger version. I'm gonna upload all the models with textures for modders if they'd like to implement it somewhere or play with it just like I did.

5 months is not a small necro, nor is necroing allowed... you should have just made a new thread

[Ramz]

5 months is not a small necro, nor is necroing allowed... you should have just made a new thread

Y'know if you bothered to answer this thread you could've by the way comment the edits, I've spent some time on it you see :/

[FelPlague]

Y'know if you bothered to answer this thread you could've by the way comment the edits, I've spent some time on it you see :/

i simply came in cause i remember reading this thread 5 months ago, and was confused why it was still going, and noticed you necrod a 5 month old thread, and wanted to point out you should avoid that in the future, as necroing is frowned upon and sometimes infracted, i cant remember the rules of "how long ago is a necro" i think he said like first three pages of the forum... but i cant remember

but 5 months is way too long, you would be better making a new thread labeling it "edits done to troll druid forms"

but im gunan pop out, i dont play troll so i know very little of this problem, but i do remeber reading all of this 5 months ago
and to the person below me, it doesent matter its still against the rules...

[moveth]

Honestly a necro that has decent information that is still relevant to the thread isn't bad. It is when someone necros a thread like "lol i unsubbed because ICC is bad" in the middle of Legion. Quit being a downer -.-

[Ramz]

i simply came in cause i remember reading this thread 5 months ago, and was confused why it was still going, and noticed you necrod a 5 month old thread, and wanted to point out you should avoid that in the future, as necroing is frowned upon and sometimes infracted, i cant remember the rules of "how long ago is a necro" i think he said like first three pages of the forum... but i cant remember

but 5 months is way too long, you would be better making a new thread labeling it "edits done to troll druid forms"

but im gunan pop out, i dont play troll so i know very little of this problem, but i do remeber reading all of this 5 months ago

I don't see that 5 months to be "too long", I still see it as acceptable span. I wouldn't do it if it was one year, or over 6 months.
And this post is related to the subject, I wanted to keep everything here in one place.

So what now you suggest me to do separate one here in general? Wouldn't that now count as double-posting?