Good diploma, still unemployed

[Rhine101]

Networking here won't help much bud. Try linked in.

And unpaid internships are garbage. Was taught that first class in business. Paid internships are the ones people take seriously and they lead to future job offers.

Get a job. Any job. Even if it's flipping burgers. Network with people face to face and make friends. Think of this degree as raising your glass ceiling and not so much as raising the floor. It won't get you in your desired position alon, but it removed any reason why an employer may not consider you for it after you have worked their a while.

No offense , but I am kind of seeing why you are I this position. If you made it through4 years of school and you have no contacts and are not that savvy on how getting hired works this was inevitable. I stay my ass inside playing skyrim and even I have a regional manager of a security firm telling me to use him as a reference. I didn't even ask.

[Endus]

Disclaimer; my experience is Canadian, hnot German, so there may be some minor differences.

It's a weird and difficult situation, and maybe someone here has an advice.

I graduated this February with a Bachelor in Int. Business Administration and missed my cum laude (no grade lower than 7.5, average above 8.0) by only a couple of exams. My average score is a 7.9 out of 10, putting me in the upper 1/5 of all graduates. I was a really good student. Not the best, but still a very good student.

Since then I've been applying for jobs and internships alike in Germany, and I can't find anything. Not even one interview after more than 50 individual applications including company-targeted letters of motivation. I find this utterly impossible and highly devastating. All my friends who graduated in February found a job, or at least an internship. One at Philip Morris, another at Siemens, one at a Lufthansa office and one even at KPMG in The Netherlands. None of them graduated higher than me.

I wouldn't overstress your grades. As you can see by your lower-scoring friends getting positions, they really aren't that big a deal, unless the company is only looking for the cream of all potential applicants (really not that common). It's the kind of thing you use to trim your stack of 3000 applications down to a manageable 100, not how you pick a finalist.

When you say "company-targeted letters of motivation", it isn't enough to write in some specifics about the company. Your cover letters need to show that you understand the basics of the company's ethics and business, and how you, specifically, will be able to bring a positive contribution to that. Cover letters are probably more important than your actual CV.

I suspect that my CV is just not good enough, and will frankly never be. Before I got accepted at my Alma Mater, I visited the worst possible schools in Germany, and I had shit grades due to not attending classes a lot. I was a troublesome kid, but I got the curve. My university "career" cannot be compared to my school days.

However, I think that many employees find it repulsive to read "Hauptschule" on a CV from an applicant for a managerial position, even though I decided to get an university entrance diploma and got through with it. Of course, even those grades were shit, as I was missing a lot of material (mostly mathematics, which I stopped caring about at the age of 13), yet I managed it. And my financial mathematics are great, as shown through the university exams.

Maybe things are different in Germany, but my primary/secondary schooling has never come up in a job interview.

All in all, I've been thoroughly honest in my CV and my applications. I believe that if a company wants me, our relationship should not be based on lies, and they should know whom they are buying into. But I think that my honesty so far has not been rewarded.

There's honest, and then there's honest. A cover letter and your CV are how you market yourself. You shouldn't lie, but you absolutely should avoid mentioning negatives, and present everything in its best possible light. If you struggled in secondary education, but overcame that and blossomed at university, that's a selling point. Focus on that blossoming. The struggle shows your ability to overcome adversity and your unwillingness to accept losses.

From what I understand, Hauptschulen aren't university-track secondary schools. So, again, your ability to not just secure entry to university, but to score in the top 20% of your class, shows you to be a self-driven individual who works well on their own.

Focus on the strengths that let you overcome the weaknesses, and gloss over those weaknesses, because you overcame them. Even if they ask you "what's your greatest weakness", you say something like "I can be too driven to succeed at times".

Cover letters, CVs, and interviews are you selling yourself, like you were trying to sell donuts. If you start out saying "I know I just taught myself to bake on my own, and I really hope you like these if you try them", you aren't gonna sell anything. If you market it as "Home-baked donuts, like your grandma used to bake!", you're presenting the same facts, but making them marketable value.

My pals all come from good schools. Either private High Schools, or German "Gymnasiums". Their CVs just look a lot more impressive, even though their final university grades were not that high. I was hoping I could score points through the fact that I came from a low education background, and still managed to successfully complete my studies, but I guess I thought wrong?

Additionally, entrance jobs are hard to find anyway. Everyone wants 2-4 years of working experience. For an entrance job. It's a joke, because how can you get experience, if the jobs meant to get experience require experience?

Network, network, network. Even if you don't know anyone, go in to these offices in person, see if you can talk to their hiring managers, even make an appointment to talk to them. Don't pitch yourself in these meetings; ask what they're looking for, probe with smart questions, make it clear that you're looking for something but aren't sure they're "it". Later, when they're hiring, after you've sent in a CV and followed up once or twice, they'll remember you, way more than they would if you just sent them a relatively generic e-mail.

You're starting from scratch, and networking is rough and frustrating and to be perfectly frank, I hate it. But it's how the world works. Get yourself in front of as many people as you can, in person if possible, on the phone if not, and don't just send in CVs.

None of the replies I received on my applications were informative. I am always told that "I was a good applicant, but with a lot of high quality applicants, details decided against me". It's the very standard reply they send to everyone.

This means you were culled because nothing made you stand out. The advice I'm giving you, here, is how to stand out.

I don't know what to do anymore. Even gaming and software companies like Ubisoft don't want to talk to me, even though I have a deep, sophisticated know-how in this area.

What am I supposed to do? Send out massive amounts of applications, randomly to any company that I come across in hopes of getting any job, no matter where or what? Should I just fucking lie about my CV, and make my schools look better than they actually were? Should I fake working experience?

1> Do not lie. If you get caught lying, not only will they deny you (or fire you, if they find out after hiring), but they will pass your name around to other hiring managers in the field, tainting your chances, potentially irrevocably.

2> Send more applications, broaden your search. 50 applications isn't that many, really, in this day and age.

3> "Experience" is a funny word. Pull from any part-time work you've done, or volunteering, find marketable skills you can pull from there, and argue that they're relevant experience. This isn't lying, but, like above, it's presenting you in the best light. Worked as a cashier at a store? "I developed a strong sense of customer relations and service values, as well as a well-developed work ethic". That kind of stuff. Sure, it doesn't directly apply. Most people's experience doesn't. Don't lie about it, but present it as ideally as you can.

[StayTuned]

Thanks a lot guys, especially Endus. Very informative reply, it sure took you some time. I appreciate it.

Networking is something I have completely ignored. Honestly, when I say completely ignored you can actually read that I almost worked actively against it. This is something I have to change, and I'll start immediately by creating the necessary online profiles such as LinkedIn. I thought that I can start networking the moment I find a job. Create a network which is related to the field I work in. I always thought that if I was a hiring manger / scout, why would I waste my time with all graduates who contact me? There must be hundreds every day, and someone as inexperienced as me has little to show.

Apart from the one internship at the Olympic Committee I have zero experiences working anywhere. As I said, my youth was fucked up. I hated school, and generally everything else as well. The fact that I didn't want to end up under a bridge triggered something in me, which made me focus. I do not aspire to have a great career, I want a work-life balance. If I could score a stable position in a good white collar job, I'd be the happiest person on this planet. This is the reason why I do not want to pursue a masters degree. I think I'd just end up as an almost 30 years old dude with zero experience, but a framed piece of paper in my hand.

[Grimbold21]

Sign up for Eurodyseé. That's a 3 to 6 month paid internship in any (or most) EU country.

[Torgent]

Personally I dont trust people with high GPA's. They spent way too much time worrying about some imaginary number.

People with a 3.0 to a 3.3 are kinda the sweet spot. Smarter than-average, yet they were cost-effective with their time.

This logic doesn't really hold up in the real world. GPA doesn't represent how much time they spent worrying about grades (at least not outright). Some people I went to school with spent all their time studying, and they fell in the 3.0-3.5 range. Then I had friends with the same majors who barely studied and had 3.8+. GPA isn't always a measure of intelligence, but it does show that they were capable of performing the work. That's all it really shows. Someone with a lower GPA would come off as someone who didn't care or wasn't able to complete the tasks as well.

[Drsolders]

This logic doesn't really hold up in the real world. GPA doesn't represent how much time they spent worrying about grades (at least not outright). Some people I went to school with spent all their time studying, and they fell in the 3.0-3.5 range. Then I had friends with the same majors who barely studied and had 3.8+. GPA isn't always a measure of intelligence, but it does show that they were capable of performing the work. That's all it really shows. Someone with a lower GPA would come off as someone who didn't care or wasn't able to complete the tasks as well.

It is also only relevant when compared internally within the school and within majors. Hell even with that, with their specific course path. A 3.0 at MIT will beat a 4.0 at most state schools. The major is also important there are some seriously easy majors and hard ones, along with certain classes you can take that are free A's. That is probably why they don't put to much into grades alone because they would spend all their time studying. Knowing people, especially influential people from your secondary education (Professors, friends, etc) are much more important, because your professor who worked in the field for 20 years recommending you is a lot more compelling than anyone's gpa or resume out of college.

[Brooxi]

Personally I dont trust people with high GPA's. They spent way too much time worrying about some imaginary number.

People with a 3.0 to a 3.3 are kinda the sweet spot. Smarter than-average, yet they were cost-effective with their time.

I hope a lot of people don't think like you. I just finished the 2nd year of a 3 year diploma and I'll be doing a degree afterwards. Right now my GPA is 3.96 (A+ = 4.0). I attend classes and spend a few hours the day before studying for exams/tests and nothing more.

[StayTuned]

Knowing people, especially influential people from your secondary education (Professors, friends, etc) are much more important, because your professor who worked in the field for 20 years recommending you is a lot more compelling than anyone's gpa or resume out of college.

That train is gone. I'll concentrate on my friends, maybe I can get a job at Philip Morris. We'll have to see, I'm not putting any high hopes into that. From what I've gathered I should massive apply via LinkedIn for now and gather experience, because I really have none.

No experiences, no connections. My situation ain't the best, indeed.

[Reeve]

1) No one cares what grades you got prior to university. Don't put them on your CV. Furthermore, I wouldn't even mention which high school you went to. It's irrelevant. Put your University experience there, and maybe your GPA if it didn't suck.

2) After you work your first career job a few years, no one is going to give a shit what grades you got at university either. At that point, don't mention that either.

3) Apply for jobs that say they require 5 years experience or whatever. In many cases, they don't actually require that, but companies put it there anyway.

4) Leverage any relationships you have with friends and relatives who may be able to pass on your resume. That's how a whole damned lot of people get their first jobs out of college.

5) International Business isn't an especially exciting degree. It doesn't have any obvious technical benefits to it when compared to other majors like engineering, geophysics, accounting, finance, etc. It says you went to school and you stuck around long enough to graduate, and you can't be too much of a stupid clod because there are at least some slightly complex topics in that course of study, but it doesn't especially qualify you any more than a ton of other degrees like that.

So that said, make sure in your CV you play up any technical qualifications you have. Do you know any computer programming? Mention it. Do you have any certifications? Mention those. Did you have any classes that taught technical skills? Put those in the education section. Any projects you did that show you have technical capabilities? Mention those.

6) Don't be afraid to look for jobs in places other than where you live. I can't tell you how many people bitch about not being able to find a job when there are plenty of jobs available a couple hundred miles away. Being willing to work in other areas, travel for work, etc. is very useful to companies.

7) Be willing to do the shit work on the way to the work you want. This includes doing work outside your major. Most of the people I know, unless they have a very specialized degree, ended up working in something completely unrelated to their major.

Good luck.

[Deleted]

I don't know what to do anymore. Even gaming and software companies like Ubisoft don't want to talk to me, even though I have a deep, sophisticated know-how in this area.

What am I supposed to do?

Why do you need someone's permission to make money?

You'll make twice as much money with ten times the freedom and half the expenses, being self-employed.

[StayTuned]

1) No one cares what grades you got prior to university. Don't put them on your CV

That's what I thought, too. But apparently in Germany they care. I first also thought that I should not attach a picture, as in many countries this is disliked. Then I was told that in Germany, it's an immediate rejection.

2) After you work your first career job a few years, no one is going to give a shit what grades you got at university either. At that point, don't mention that either.

First I have to get this far :-|

3) Apply for jobs that say they require 5 years experience or whatever. In many cases, they don't actually require that, but companies put it there anyway.

I did in a couple of cases, but thought it would be a waste of energy. I'll apply to those from now on as well. 1 Mai was my deadline, and that's today.

4) Leverage any relationships you have with friends and relatives who may be able to pass on your resume. That's how a whole damned lot of people get their first jobs out of college.

I'll try that with my friends. My family and relatives are utterly useless.

5) International Business isn't an especially exciting degree. It doesn't have any obvious technical benefits to it when compared to other majors like engineering, geophysics, accounting, finance, etc. It says you went to school and you stuck around long enough to graduate, and you can't be too much of a stupid clod because there are at least some slightly complex topics in that course of study, but it doesn't especially qualify you any more than a ton of other degrees like that.

So that said, make sure in your CV you play up any technical qualifications you have. Do you know any computer programming? Mention it. Do you have any certifications? Mention those. Did you have any classes that taught technical skills? Put those in the education section. Any projects you did that show you have technical capabilities? Mention those.

This is true. As someone said it already, my degree says I have a broad education, but no focus whatsoever. My major is International Management. This means so much that it actually starts to mean very little. My boon is my IT education which enabled me the entrance to a university. I'm very tech savvy and my knowledge about the gaming industry is quite developed. This is why I mainly applied at software companies and will keep on doing that. I wish I did my major in Marketing, but mistakes were made, I've gotta live with it now.

6) Don't be afraid to look for jobs in places other than where you live. I can't tell you how many people bitch about not being able to find a job when there are plenty of jobs available a couple hundred miles away. Being willing to work in other areas, travel for work, etc. is very useful to companies.

Everything within reasonable travel time is acceptable. As long my commute is less than one and a half hours one-way, I'm fine. I am exceptionally used to travel long distances, and I have lived and studied with people from all around the world. My intercultural competences are splendid, so I've got that going for me.

7) Be willing to do the shit work on the way to the work you want. This includes doing work outside your major. Most of the people I know, unless they have a very specialized degree, ended up working in something completely unrelated to their major.

For now I really want to stick with something I actually studied for. If I really can't find anything until the summer, I'll literally do anything to keep myself above water.

Good luck

Thanks mate. I appreciate.

[breadisfunny]

i have a related question about this:
would business degrees being not good to have also apply to accounting too? i mean people always need accountants.
i ask because someday i hope to go back and finish my accounting degree when i get the money to do so.

[StayTuned]

i have a related question about this:
would business degrees being not good to have also apply to accounting too? i mean people always need accountants.

My plan is not to ruin the company. Put me in accounting and your company is ruined. My strengths are marketing, human resources, project management... these areas.

But theoretically, yes. A friend of mine is doing an internship in the controlling of Nike, working with their accounts.

[breadisfunny]

My plan is not to ruin the company. Put me in accounting and your company is ruined. My strengths are marketing, human resources, project management... these areas.

well i mostly asked it because my question was related and didn't want to open a new thread about it.

[StayTuned]

well i mostly asked it because my question was related and didn't want to open a new thread about it.

Yea I hit the reply button too fast. I edited it, so check it. Theoretically yes, my major can also enable you a job in accounting. I had multiple accounting classes.

[Reeve]

That's what I thought, too. But apparently in Germany they care. I first also thought that I should not attach a picture, as in many countries this is disliked. Then I was told that in Germany, it's an immediate rejection.

Wow, pictures on CVs are extremely frowned upon here. Partly because companies can't legally make decisions about employment based on the way a person looks anyway. I'd be unlikely to consider a CV with a picture on it, to be honest.

This is true. As someone said it already, my degree says I have a broad education, but no focus whatsoever. My major is International Management. This means so much that it actually starts to mean very little. My boon is my IT education which enabled me the entrance to a university. I'm very tech savvy and my knowledge about the gaming industry is quite developed. This is why I mainly applied at software companies and will keep on doing that. I wish I did my major in Marketing, but mistakes were made, I've gotta live with it now.

Marketing is equally meaningless. Marketing was my major, and unless you know someone, you'll never land a job in marketing. It becomes as meaningful as any other generalist business degree. I don't recommend it at all. If you really want to do business, you should get a technical degree (computer science, mech/petro/electrical/etc. engineering, accounting, finance, physics, etc.) with a business minor, or a Masters of Business Admin. That's a killer winning combo. Otherwise most business degrees just show that you were able to graduate college.

Everything within reasonable travel time is acceptable. As long my commute it's less than one and a half hours one-way, I'm fine. I am exceptionally used to travel long distances, and I have lived and studied with people from all around the world. My intercultural competences are splendid, so I've got that going for me.

You wouldn't move to a different city if it were farther away? Why not?

For now I really want to stick with something I actually studied for. If I really can't find anything until the summer, I'll literally do anything to keep myself above water.

Sure, if you can, go for it.

- - - Updated - - -

i have a related question about this:
would business degrees being not good to have also apply to accounting too? i mean people always need accountants.
i ask because someday i hope to go back and finish my accounting degree when i get the money to do so.

Accounting is fine. It's a specific and valuable skill.

[StayTuned]

You wouldn't move to a different city if it were farther away? Why not?

Because it's complicated. I live with my girlfriend, and the job would have to be splendid and secure to make her move away from her whole family. There is a lot more to it, but generally it would be very preferable if I can avoid it. Personally, I wouldn't mind working in Japan, and would honestly prefer working outside of Germany, because that's why I studied International Business, not German Betriebswirtschaft.

- - - Updated - - -

Wow, pictures on CVs are extremely frowned upon here. Partly because companies can't legally make decisions about employment based on the way a person looks anyway. I'd be unlikely to consider a CV with a picture on it, to be honest.

I KNOW. I am absolutely positive that it killed all my first dozen of applications. But in Germany, people want to know your face. Not officially, as they legally cannot do anything based on the appearance. But absolutely everyone I know told me that there's no way a German scout will accept you without a picture. Probably it's a cultural / mentality thing.

[Independent voter]

Move to San Jose California. Live in a cardboard box because you can't afford the rent. Buy a 24/7 membership at a gym so you have a shower, a locker and a place to get warm, or cold. Hang out at the city's beautiful library. Find out where the web developers hang out, hang out there, it might be a swap meet or a maker's club.

Take any job that comes along, work like a dog, have perfect integrity and if the toilet is plugged up, get a plunger and unplug it. Start looking for a new job immediately, tell them you love your current job but you feel you need more responsibility, a bigger challenge. Keep applying for better jobs until you are well in over your head, apply for better jobs.

You will be rich by now and you can move into an apartment.

[Reeve]

Move to San Jose California. Live in a cardboard box because you can't afford the rent. Buy a 24/7 membership at a gym so you have a shower, a locker and a place to get warm, or cold. Hang out at the city's beautiful library. Find out where the web developers hang out, hang out there, it might be a swap meet or a maker's club.

Take any job that comes along, work like a dog, have perfect integrity and if the toilet is plugged up, get a plunger and unplug it. Start looking for a new job immediately, tell them you love your current job but you feel you need more responsibility, a bigger challenge. Keep applying for better jobs until you are well in over your head, apply for better jobs.

You will be rich by now and you can move into an apartment.

That's my home town, yup.

[Deleted]

I was in a similar situation a year or so back. I was over-qualified for jobs i didn't really want but had no where near enough experience for the jobs i wanted/qualified for. I had no connections or anything either. Had to take a lower paying job to get experience and use that to springboard to jobs i'd rather do. It's kind of how it is now for alot of us.