Double Holy obsolete with t18?

[Deleted]

Hello fellow Palidans,

I usually main a Disc Priest in progress. Albeit I also play every other healing class out there, primarily to know what is going on in my healing enviroment and to know what to expect from my mates.

So in T17 Mythic, stacking Holy Palas has been a huge thing. One of the reasons for that is, that double beacon on tanks almost makes direct tank healing redundant. I do not want to discuss wether this is a good thing or not, I guess that discussion has been out there quite long enough.

However, what is interesting is the fact that T18 2p buffes the beacon by a flat 50%. This makes me question, if stacking Holy Paladins in HFC will still be a good thing, since that will result in even more beacon overheal. Also, 1 Holy Paladin's beacon tank heal is now as effective as 1.5 Paladins in BRF (roughly spoken, of course it's not that simple).

What do you think, would you wanna stack Holy Paladins with 6.2?

[CloudedInSanity]

Hard to say. Paladins have fantastic utility and cooldowns, however if tank damage is going to be minimal then throughput choices are going to be a lot better as many fights in HFC have tons of constant AoE damage.

[Deleted]

Okay, having 2 Paladins in a Raid is a good thing. But if one of them already is a Ret or Prot, you probably don't need a third Paladin in terms of utility. That's why my question was aiming for (Tank-)heal.

[CloudedInSanity]

Which I also answered.

[LuisKA]

As a tank myself, and considering healers don't heal the tanks nowadays (I have no clue about healers right now, but I can say I receive close to zero direct healing in a raid night, not counting shields from disc here and there) I don't see double holy become redundant even with extra beacon healing.

That said I also have no idea about ptr or how 6.2 will turn out on tank damage, but if it stays somewhat close to BRF, you will want those holy paladins so that other healers don't have to spare throughput/mana on tanks.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Okay, having 2 Paladins in a Raid is a good thing. But if one of them already is a Ret or Prot, you probably don't need a third Paladin in terms of utility. That's why my question was aiming for (Tank-)heal.

2 holy paladins > 1 holy paladin and 1 ret.
I'm currently raiding as a ret in a guild that has a prot pala offtank, 2 rets (including me), 1 holy and recently 1 more holy joined. Unless by some miracle Ret dps is buffed there's no point staying as ret. Melee in general being in the state they are in the new 20man format and ret being the weakest melee it's just a no brainer...
Also if anything the T18 set bonuses just makes Holy Paladins stronger so you might be able to 3 heal some encounters because of 2 holy paladins.

[Deleted]

Also if anything the T18 set bonuses just makes Holy Paladins stronger so you might be able to 3 heal some encounters because of 2 holy paladins.

Can you elaborate on that please? I'm recruiting a healer atm and we're having a bit of a discussion as to whether a second Holy would really be weaker in T18 so very interested to hear how they might be a better bet.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

How on earth would Holy Paladins be weaker when they get set bonuses that are infinitely better than the current ones and you already "want" to have 2 of them?
If you have 1 holy, 1 prot and 1 ret- make the ret reroll and get one more holy pala, you have no idea how big 2 holy paladins are atm even before T18 set bonuses...
Like I said it might even allow for 3 heals instead of 4 because of how strong they are for tank healing combined with raid healing...

Take my raid team for instance, we have 2 rets, 1 prot paladin and 2 holy paladins. Clearly that's way too much, two too many to be honest. I'm rerolling resto druid/moonkin for T18 because Ret is very weak (unless extensive buffs are made on PTR) and Holy is only beaten on healing by Disc Priest.

Mark my words- best healer setup for T18 is 100% going to be 2x Holy Paladins, 1 Discipline Priest and 1 throughput/utility healer (Shaman, Druid, Monk. not Holy Priest- lol)


*edit*
To give you an idea. Our second kill of Blackhand we had 2 holy paladins- all 4 healers entered P3 with 70% + mana and all their CDs- P2 was largely 3healable and the last healer just dpsed. The first kill all 4 healers had to constantly watch tanks for spike damage and their mana was significantly lower when P3 started- even some CDs had to be used in P2 to keep tanks up.
Rekill took us 6 pulls with 3 new people btw.

[Floopa]

How on earth would Holy Paladins be weaker when they get set bonuses that are infinitely better than the current ones and you already "want" to have 2 of them?

resto druid 4pc, MW 4 pc. the resto druid 4pc is basically beacon of light/faith on tanks. the MW 4pc is essentially the same thing (it can be up on 3 targets instead of 2 though).

resto druid tank healing, like MW tank healing, in 6.2 with the 4set t18 is actually crazy. it far surpasses holy paladins in terms of output. holy palas just have wings, double sac, double HoP, and devo which makes them still relevant.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

The thing is that the holy paladins just put beacon(s) on tank(s) and more or less ignore them while as resto druid and MW monk you have to pay attention to them, more than holy paladins have to anyways. I'm 90% going to reroll resto/balance druid and I've tried the T18 resto set bonuses (with both haste and mastery build) and it's indeed very-very strong throughput on tanks but doing so is also keeping you from doing max potential HPS by spreading rejus and so on. Not sure about MW monks though, might be different. All things considered though you're better off by having a holy paladin over a ret atm unless you already have 2 holy paladins and the only spec that rivals ret's uselessness is Enh and Shadow Priests- but they have niches like multidots (SP) and heavy aoe (Enh)

[Floopa]

The thing is that the holy paladins just put beacon(s) on tank(s) and more or less ignore them while as resto druid and MW monk you have to pay attention to them, more than holy paladins have to anyways. I'm 90% going to reroll resto/balance druid and I've tried the T18 resto set bonuses (with both haste and mastery build) and it's indeed very-very strong throughput on tanks but doing so is also keeping you from doing max potential HPS by spreading rejus and so on. Not sure about MW monks though, might be different. All things considered though you're better off by having a holy paladin over a ret atm unless you already have 2 holy paladins and the only spec that rivals ret's uselessness is Enh and Shadow Priests- but they have niches like multidots (SP) and heavy aoe (Enh)

if putting lifebloom on tanks and keeping it up 100% of the time is "demanding" then maybe that's why healing is in such a sad state of affairs atm ROFL

honestly paladins are strong. of course they are. but the t18 4pc bonuses do bring healers very much in line with paladins in terms of tank healing. not to mention, paladins aoe healing is virtually non existent.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Holy Paladin aoe healing is better than people think.

[CloudedInSanity]

Holy Paladin aoe healing is better than people think.

Uh... no, it's really not. We don't do AoE Healing, we do triage healing with strong tank healing. Our AoE throughput does not exist.

[Clrg]

Uh... no, it's really not. We don't do AoE Healing, we do triage healing with strong tank healing. Our AoE throughput does not exist.

inb4 unglyphed wings hr, prism lod spam.

[Tiberria]

Uh... no, it's really not. We don't do AoE Healing, we do triage healing with strong tank healing. Our AoE throughput does not exist.

I mean, Beacons resulting in 3 targets being healed with every single target spell you cast is a form of AoE throughput/healing. It's also not that much different mechanically from how other healers work. Things like CoH, Uplift, Wild Growth, etc heal 5-6 targets, but are CD/resource limited. Just because Pallies heal 3 targets with every cast instead of 6 targets with a defined AoE healing spell every 6-15 seconds doesn't make them any less of an "AoE healer; just mechanically different.

Plus, if you want to dismiss single target casts as AoE healing, then you would also have to dismiss things like PW:S, Rejuv and Renew as not being "AoE throughput" either. Would anyone really argue that a Disc Priest's "AOE healing does not exist" even when almost all of it is coming from a spammable single target spell?

[Clrg]

I mean, Beacons resulting in 3 targets being healed with every single target spell you cast is a form of AoE throughput/healing. It's also not that much different mechanically from how other healers work. Things like CoH, Uplift, Wild Growth, etc heal 5-6 targets, but are CD/resource limited. Just because Pallies heal 3 targets with every cast instead of 6 targets with a defined AoE healing spell every 6-15 seconds doesn't make them any less of an "AoE healer; just mechanically different.

Plus, if you want to dismiss single target casts as AoE healing, then you would also have to dismiss things like PW:S, Rejuv and Renew as not being "AoE throughput" either. Would anyone really argue that a Disc Priest's "AOE healing does not exist" even when almost all of it is coming from a spammable single target spell?

Please stop.

[Deleted]

I mean, Beacons resulting in 3 targets being healed with every single target spell you cast is a form of AoE throughput/healing. It's also not that much different mechanically from how other healers work. Things like CoH, Uplift, Wild Growth, etc heal 5-6 targets, but are CD/resource limited. Just because Pallies heal 3 targets with every cast instead of 6 targets with a defined AoE healing spell every 6-15 seconds doesn't make them any less of an "AoE healer; just mechanically different.

Plus, if you want to dismiss single target casts as AoE healing, then you would also have to dismiss things like PW:S, Rejuv and Renew as not being "AoE throughput" either. Would anyone really argue that a Disc Priest's "AOE healing does not exist" even when almost all of it is coming from a spammable single target spell?

Please use your brain before posting. 2 of the 3 targets are nearly always the tanks. Yeah not different mechanically. /facepalm
Holy Pala aoe is ok right now but only with wings up (otherwise non existent). And we won't have the mana to spam HR with wings up in T18.

Overall I doubt that 2x holy pala will be the best setup for most of the bosses (ofc viable though).

[PosPosPos]

I mean, Beacons resulting in 3 targets being healed with every single target spell you cast is a form of AoE throughput/healing. It's also not that much different mechanically from how other healers work. Things like CoH, Uplift, Wild Growth, etc heal 5-6 targets, but are CD/resource limited. Just because Pallies heal 3 targets with every cast instead of 6 targets with a defined AoE healing spell every 6-15 seconds doesn't make them any less of an "AoE healer; just mechanically different.

Plus, if you want to dismiss single target casts as AoE healing, then you would also have to dismiss things like PW:S, Rejuv and Renew as not being "AoE throughput" either. Would anyone really argue that a Disc Priest's "AOE healing does not exist" even when almost all of it is coming from a spammable single target spell?

What do you honestly think would happen if a holy paladin tried to heal the raid with FoL like a disc priest does with PW:S?

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Having two of the same healer in Mythic already seems like a bad idea to me. I suppose it seems worse knowing the amount of overhealing the beacons will do next expansion, but if I had a choice any other class would be better to have two of.
Now that Aura is going to be useable in all situations they will be a bit more useful, but at the moment as a Paladin I find 60+ percent of my healing to be done to tanks. The moments where the raid needs healing, even with wings up, I just don't feel I contribute properly unless everyone is stacked up.

[Smitus]

Double holy paladin will most likely continue to be a strong option if the not THE best healing comp for a large number of fights in M HfC simply due to how tank damage works in this expansion (most notably during progression when everyone is under geared).