Another Blackhand Nerf

[LET JIMMY RAID]

I don't know how a mage could possibly die in P1 with block, invis and blink.

[Overdispersion]

We only have a few deaths in P1 now, and it's almost exclusively demolition damage. With the changes they probably won't happen though. Those deaths are almost 100% mages too, or people moving too late.

This won't cause a mass increase in kills. Most of the deaths in P1 for people learning it are going to be missing CDs, moving too soon/late, getting hit with mark or their DPS being too slow. All of these things won't change the consistency of P1.

IDK about warriors but DPS DK is fine in P1. You just jump into blood presence basically.

Warrior dps is fine in p1 aswell since you can go def stance for demolitions. As long as you have a disc priest, your melee shouldn't die from demo damage anyway.

[Tehterokkar]

I don't know how a mage could possibly die in P1 with block, invis and blink.

How does Blink help? You blink ahead and cause a demolition to spawn in front of the group, GJ wiping the raid. If you somehow have trouble moving as a group, you are not fit for mythic raiding.

Also you want Invis for P2 start to clear out the cinders. Ice Block is also needed for P3, so if you use it in P1, you can't use it in P3, at least not for the first Debris.

[CausalXXLinkXx]

Nerf probably makes it 3-healable pretty consistently now

eh we found phase 3 to be the part where you really needed those 4 healers healing.

[Dracodraco]

How does Blink help? You blink ahead and cause a demolition to spawn in front of the group, GJ wiping the raid. If you somehow have trouble moving as a group, you are not fit for mythic raiding.

Also you want Invis for P2 start to clear out the cinders. Ice Block is also needed for P3, so if you use it in P1, you can't use it in P3, at least not for the first Debris.

Mages stop moving to cast when a debri has spawned, then blink to catch up to the group. No danger of spawning a bad demolition if you know what you're doing.
Also, just Ginvis first demo (as you should) and block will be off cd for the second with most guild's average dps.

[Libretto]

eh we found phase 3 to be the part where you really needed those 4 healers healing.

We brought a previously benched holy priest in a couple weeks ago, she went angel form about 2 seconds into P3 and we killed it that pull, ez.

As for mages, I usually just blink as soon as the fourth massive demolition circle spawns on #2 and #3 since fox is down and I probably don't have ice floes charges at that point anyway.

[Nuckels]

Almost no other damage going out in P1 so yeah most death should be from demo in P1.

What kind of logic is that, so people messing up positioning with marked for death and mines is not a factor? It is alot more commen then demo deaths for most guilds.

[UnderworldSoup]

I'm not sure why some of you think this is going to greatly increase the number of guilds that have killed the boss at any differing rate than it would previously. This change isn't big enough to do more than allow for more class flexibility in phase one. Phase two and three are more difficult for guilds than the first.

If they lowered his health in this hotfix, I could see the complaints being justified.

[Nuckels]

I'm not sure why some of you think this is going to greatly increase the number of guilds that have killed the boss at any differing rate than it would previously. This change isn't big enough to do more than allow for more class flexibility in phase one. Phase two and three are more difficult for guilds than the first.

If they lowered his health in this hotfix, I could see the complaints being justified.

I expect a bigger nerf very soon, possibly even to all of mythic.

[Sierra85]

i think its only a matter of time before we see a more substantial nerf, especially on heroic. Probably a massive reduction in damage taken from the mines since they seem to be what kill pug morons.

[Brilynn]

eh we found phase 3 to be the part where you really needed those 4 healers healing.

Our Rshaman died about 10 seconds into p3 and we managed to kill it with 3 heals up. More WOULD have been nice, but not necessary, apparently

- - - Updated - - -

i think its only a matter of time before we see a more substantial nerf, especially on heroic. Probably a massive reduction in damage taken from the mines since they seem to be what kill pug morons.

Bombs aren't SO bad. More annoyance than anything. I would imagine the most important nerf to anything would be balcony adds. Nerf balcony adds and the fight gets exponentially easier imo

[Cracked]

I don't know how a mage could possibly die in P1 with block, invis and blink.

Exactly. Run with the group, blink to designated spot after last demo spawns so you can get off a couple of casts. Use Ice Barrier just as Fox ends. Have a fast finger on healing tonic. Really hard to die as mage if you know what to do. Never had to use Iceblock to survive, except one time when I got slagged by standing too close to a mine that a rogue went to explode.

[CausalXXLinkXx]

We brought a previously benched holy priest in a couple weeks ago, she went angel form about 2 seconds into P3 and we killed it that pull, ez.

As for mages, I usually just blink as soon as the fourth massive demolition circle spawns on #2 and #3 since fox is down and I probably don't have ice floes charges at that point anyway.

Hmm, might be because we were 19 manning it then and down a dps.

[Sierra85]

Bombs aren't SO bad. More annoyance than anything. I would imagine the most important nerf to anything would be balcony adds. Nerf balcony adds and the fight gets exponentially easier imo

Yeah i agree, balcony adds nerf would be huge. But i dunno. I been pugging Blackhand a lot lately and it seems that what screws up alot is idiots triggering bombs and dieing, which makes the fight stupid hard cause we're now down a few. The balcony stuff can be outhealed fairly easily given gear levels currently.

[Relapses]

Yeah i agree, balcony adds nerf would be huge. But i dunno. I been pugging Blackhand a lot lately and it seems that what screws up alot is idiots triggering bombs and dieing, which makes the fight stupid hard cause we're now down a few. The balcony stuff can be outhealed fairly easily given gear levels currently.

On Heroic, yes, but Mythic absolutely not.

Anyway, the nerf went through Thursday and since there have been 2 additional US Blackhand kills (my guild being one of them, but we were already pushing deep P3 when it hit). Clearly this nerf has opened the floodgates for Blackhand kills.

[LET JIMMY RAID]

How does Blink help? You blink ahead and cause a demolition to spawn in front of the group, GJ wiping the raid. If you somehow have trouble moving as a group, you are not fit for mythic raiding.

Also you want Invis for P2 start to clear out the cinders. Ice Block is also needed for P3, so if you use it in P1, you can't use it in P3, at least not for the first Debris.

I meant that you blink immediately following the last massive demo circle, it's not that hard. You can easily block in p1 and have it up for debris in p3. Not only that, you can get bopped for debris. If you don't have priests for mass dispel in p2, and don't have invis for cinder dispels, call for a single. Mages that die in p1 are doing something wrong.

[Pariah]

Another 5-10% HP nerf to Blackhand, reduce the number of Balcony adds or nerf their HP by 20%, decrease the number of falling debris by 1, and lower Overheated or Impaled'd damage in P3 by 10% would be a significant nerf to the encounter while still requiring the mechanics to be handled correctly. Also, while we're at it-- make the siegemakers apply a stacking debuff to remove the cheese tank strategy in P2. Make the fight be done the correct way and help a lot of guilds kill it.

[Ezekiah]

I expect a bigger nerf very soon, possibly even to all of mythic.

I'm actually surprised we haven't seen it already. Guilds are still moving pretty slowly in BRF. I think at this point most guilds that normally clear a tier either already have or are stuck on one of the last three and hemorrhaging players because of it. I think a sweeping nerf with this little left in the tier is warranted.

[Deleted]

Another 5-10% HP nerf to Blackhand, reduce the number of Balcony adds or nerf their HP by 20%, decrease the number of falling debris by 1, and lower Overheated or Impaled'd damage in P3 by 10% would be a significant nerf to the encounter while still requiring the mechanics to be handled correctly. Also, while we're at it-- make the siegemakers apply a stacking debuff to remove the cheese tank strategy in P2. Make the fight be done the correct way and help a lot of guilds kill it.

The only thing requiring the fight to be done the "correct" way will do is:

A. Make farm a pain in the ass for the guilds that killed it months ago because they have to re-learn the entirety of P2.
B. Make it impossible for guilds that are only just getting there now because the guilds getting there now simply aren't very good on average and won't be able to pull it off without taking 4-500 wipes doing so.

In short, it's not happening. The Siegemakers being tankable was a mistake in the first place, but the chances of that strat being made unviable is simply 0 when somewhere between 95 and 99% of all guilds that have killed it use the strat. The boss is already a 5% HP nerf shy of being trivially easy at this point.

[Dracodraco]

Another 5-10% HP nerf to Blackhand, reduce the number of Balcony adds or nerf their HP by 20%, decrease the number of falling debris by 1, and lower Overheated or Impaled'd damage in P3 by 10% would be a significant nerf to the encounter while still requiring the mechanics to be handled correctly. Also, while we're at it-- make the siegemakers apply a stacking debuff to remove the cheese tank strategy in P2. Make the fight be done the correct way and help a lot of guilds kill it.

Hp of adds in 20 man heroic is about 200K, mythic 285K atm. Nerfing their HP with 20% seems to get awfully close to heroic-level health .
If they were to nerf P2, it should be much more subtle - something akin to letting the debuff fall off every 30 seconds instead of 45, which means you could send the same guy up with every smash, and doubling the time it takes for them to evolve to experienced/veterans (thus allowing for potential recovery of a missed balcony).
Right now, they gain experienced after 30 seconds, meaning if you missed a balcony, you have no way to get the balcony cleared before they become experienced. It's probably what ends up killing most guilds; One missed balcony both needs insane output to recover (due to experienced/veterans gaining HP), and puts a heavy strain on healers.

If those 2 changes were put in effect, I imagine tons of kills would flood in. Missing a balcony wouldn't be a crapshoot struggle to enter P3 in a healthy shape anymore, it'd be "ok, you missed your balcony, go up on the next smash and take care of it". Can't do that right now due to debuff and thus not being able to go up next time the boomkin is supposed to.