Warrior Alpha Feedback and Impressions

[Archimtiros]

Rather than copy/paste my post from the Alpha forums, I'm just going to link it here. Feel free to provide thoughts and feedback here or on the alpha forums, but try to keep it on topic.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...24942?page=1#0

Update: A different post, in a different thread, regarding the talent tree layout can be found here http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...75894?page=1#8.

Edit: Title should have read "Fury", I haven't gotten a chance to muck with Prot yet and Arms is disabled.

Note: Working on a completely separate thread for Enrage, because it's that important of an issue, especially as the artifact is concerned. Will provide a link upon completion.

[Secondwind]

Huh, rampage has a 2s gcd? I figured it would never happen to anyone, but if they were going to give a slow gcd to anyone they should have done it to Arms to fit the slow hits theme.

Edit: Sorry didn't bother responding to anything else, but that shocked me too much to really consider much else. I 100% agree with you on the talent placement issue, and really am not a fan of the current design. Sweeping Strikes and Overpower being available to Fury continues to piss me off, the fact that they are both bad talents for Fury doesn't really make it any better.

Reck should probably go up to 6 seconds, but I imagine enrage got reduced to intentionally reduce enrage uptime. With the new RB model having 95%+ enrage uptime doesn't seem right. I'd kind of like to see Meat Cleaver go to onto a system where it affects your next 2-3 RB's, rather than a set duration, but they're trying to get rid of charge based buffs so that probably won't happen.

[Shelly]

Huh, rampage has a 2s gcd? I figured it would never happen to anyone, but if they were going to give a slow gcd to anyone they should have done it to Arms to fit the slow hits theme.

We've known that about Rampage for a while now. It's basically Fists of Fury and the cast should be reduced by haste which with talents warriors can get 25%+ pretty easily which will drop the cast time down to 1.5s with fully stacks of Frenzy.

[Murlocbait]

Rather than copy/paste my post from the Alpha forums, I'm just going to link it here. Feel free to provide thoughts and feedback here or on the alpha forums, but try to keep it on topic.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...24942?page=1#0

Edit: Title should have read "Fury", I haven't gotten a chance to muck with Prot yet and Arms is disabled.

I am not in alpha and I'm sure I won't be in beta, so I really don't have much feedback or useful thoughts. I would like to thank you, however, for point out these issues and fighting the good fight for the rest of us who cannot do so. They might not listen to you, but it's still great to know you're out there as a voice for warriors everywhere!

[Shelly]

Good summary thread too Archi. Lays out a lot of simple mechanical failures.

[Archimtiros]

We've known that about Rampage for a while now. It's basically Fists of Fury and the cast should be reduced by haste which with talents warriors can get 25%+ pretty easily which will drop the cast time down to 1.5s with fully stacks of Frenzy.

Actually we were unsure. When said a long attack like that didn't feel very "furious" and asked if it worked like Fists of Fury, WCD said it wouldn't be a channel and you could continue to take action during it, which implied it worked like Flurry of Xuen (MoP DPS Cloak), that is to say you would be able to use other abilities during the "flurry". Turns out you cannot, though you can use Heroic Strike and other off-GCD abilities.

This actually has pretty huge implications, because without Carnage it's not a very good attack to begin with. It does good damage, but the long GCD and the high rage cost make it very inefficient compared to Raging Blow. Since there's no charge system on Raging Blow, preliminary line of thought is that it will be an un-enraged or rage dump only ability unless using Carnage.

Also, updated the OP with a key note.

[Secondwind]

We've known that about Rampage for a while now. It's basically Fists of Fury and the cast should be reduced by haste which with talents warriors can get 25%+ pretty easily which will drop the cast time down to 1.5s with fully stacks of Frenzy.

Like Archi pointed out, it actually works pretty differently from how we were told.

Also, personally I would consider a channel style attack like FoF to feel more furious than a slow gcd. While it has the same net effect, the channel gives the impression of actively doing something, while a slow gcd just makes it feel like you're sitting and waiting, even if yellow numbers keep popping up on your screen.

[Shelly]

Actually we were unsure. When said a long attack like that didn't feel very "furious" and asked if it worked like Fists of Fury, WCD said it wouldn't be a channel and you could continue to take action during it, which implied it worked like Flurry of Xuen (MoP DPS Cloak), that is to say you would be able to use other abilities during the "flurry". Turns out you cannot, though you can use Heroic Strike and other off-GCD abilities.

This actually has pretty huge implications, because without Carnage it's not a very good attack to begin with. It does good damage, but the long GCD and the high rage cost make it very inefficient compared to Raging Blow. Since there's no charge system on Raging Blow, preliminary line of thought is that it will be an un-enraged or rage dump only ability unless using Carnage.

Also, updated the OP with a key note.

I think it's meant as a rage dump and starting attack once we start getting the 50-rage charges from the artifact talent.

And I must have missed that memo, my impression was that Rampage was always going to be FoF and my only questions were whether we could move while it was channeling and if we'd auto-attack while doing it too for rage generation.

Either way there's probably another thread to be made about abilities lacking punch without artifact augmentation. I mean they should still be a lot better after being given some artifact love, but they should still pack a punch prior to.

[Archimtiros]

Also, personally I would consider a channel style attack like FoF to feel more furious than a slow gcd. While it has the same net effect, the channel gives the impression of actively doing something, while a slow gcd just makes it feel like you're sitting and waiting, even if yellow numbers keep popping up on your screen.

Well said. I might use that argument later.

On the plus side, it is hasted via HLR, so that does mitigate the situation somewhat. Also, as much as I didn't want to like Frenzy, it's pretty damn nice with Enrage. The base gear has only 1% haste on it, but while Enraged with 2 stacks of Into the Fray (which is probably going to be a worthless talent in most situations) adding 10%, and 5 stacks of Frenzy adding 25% Haste, I was able to turn Fury's 3.56s attack speed autos down to 1.29s with a 1.08s GCD. That's a pretty fucking nasty lawnmower spec.

[Shelly]

Well said. I might use that argument later.

On the plus side, it is hasted via HLR, so that does mitigate the situation somewhat. Also, as much as I didn't want to like Frenzy, it's pretty damn nice with Enrage. The base gear has only 1% haste on it, but while Enraged with 2 stacks of Into the Fray (which is probably going to be a worthless talent in most situations) adding 10%, and 5 stacks of Frenzy adding 25% Haste, I was able to turn Fury's 3.56s attack speed autos down to 1.29s with a 1.08s GCD. That's a pretty fucking nasty lawnmower spec.

It's all about fast attack, are you running a meter at all? I'm wondering if we're going to return to the days of 20% white damage. My guess is yes, but I won't feel too bad about it if things like Raging Blow fill my screen with a nice big yellow number with regularity.

[Breccia]

Let me know when you get to Prot. Be sure to mention Ultimatum lets Heroic Strike automatically crit, which is great, except that Prot doesn't have it anymore. It got replaced by Focused Rage, an on-next-attack boost that I swore they said was stupid when they removed it years ago.

EDIT: Using http://legion.wowhead.com/talent#Mwy

[Maltore]

I had tweeted that question about Rampage. But the answer that came back wasn't exactly clear, yet it appears it was accurate.

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...57344995479552


Your critque about all the 5 and 6 sec damage buff windows is spot on. I wish they would up the Enrage to at least 8 seconds. I would really prefer a 12 sec Enrage, even if it means the crit bonus would need to come back to 30%. This would help our RNG problem and be a good quality of life/gameplay improvement. Micro-managing a handful of 5 or 6 sec buffs just sounds awful, especially when 1 to 1.5 sec is wasted to GCD after BT procs it.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Is this based on anything though?
I understand impressions, but don't feel like there is anything to discuss until 110.

I'm excited for and not excited for various changes, but don't see much use in discussing it now, this early. Especially here.

[Secondwind]

btw what are the cooldowns on Heroic Leap/Charge? I remember them being bugged in the initial datamining and showing 0s, and have heard rumors of 12s charge being baseline. Any truth to that?

[Shelly]

Is this based on anything though?
I understand impressions, but don't feel like there is anything to discuss until 110.

I'm excited for and not excited for various changes, but don't see much use in discussing it now, this early. Especially here.

Average gameplay to 110 is going to take anywhere from 2.5 weeks to a month. We also don't get any new talent at 110, just the standard base power boost from leveling.

They've stated that artifacts are expected to take months to level up entirely.

So yeah, I'm pretty sure that the leveling experience and power curve impressions are pretty damned important since we'll still be under the leveling curve via the artifact weapon even as we enter the gear curve of dungeons and raiding at max level.

Here it's nice to discuss because people who are passionate about warriors but not playing currently can weigh in on things and get information from people they trust and whose opinions carry weight. These people if swayed by particular arguments can relay them to the devs.

Also it's pretty well known that the devs do look at 3rd party sites for information, it helps them find out how things are going and also whether or not messages are properly filtering down to the most vocal of their player base.

And this will be rude, but if you don't feel like participating in the discussion then why'd you even bother to post?

[cFortyfive]

Sounds pretty bleak I suppose it's all about being thankful for having charge give rage ? ^

[Firefall]

Is it possible that this is all working as intended? If Rampage was the best option even when Enraged we'd never use anything else so it needs drawbacks, and if everything lined up perfectly 100% of the time it'd be kinda boring because there would be no room for improvement in each dump cycle. I don't think that the intended design is to always be able to use the max number of Raging Blows during Enrage or a DR, for example. It's never been the design that you can always have every window be perfect. BR gives us a free perfect window, so using it wisely is part of the skill cap.

That said even just one more second onto Recklessness, or one or two more onto Enrage would go a really long way. Everything being in units of 6 (DR, Berserking, Enrage) and then Recklessness being 5 is clunky.

[Shelly]

Is it possible that this is all working as intended? If Rampage was the best option even when Enraged we'd never use anything else so it needs drawbacks, and if everything lined up perfectly 100% of the time it'd be kinda boring because there would be no room for improvement in each dump cycle. I don't think that the intended design is to always be able to use the max number of Raging Blows during Enrage or a DR, for example. It's never been the design that you can always have every window be perfect. BR gives us a free perfect window, so using it wisely is part of the skill cap.

That said even just one more second onto Recklessness, or one or two more onto Enrage would go a really long way. Everything being in units of 6 (DR, Berserking, Enrage) and then Recklessness being 5 is clunky.

Maybe I missed something, but pretty sure Rampage doesn't double-dip Enrage. It just does damage as if you were enraged even if you were not.

The more I read the more it seems to me like you should keep above 50 rage while enraged and the moment enrage drops pop a Rampage while waiting for BT to come back up.

Also - as you mentioned earlier Firefall - Heroic Strike might be just a required ability to use while Rampage is going on since it's off the GCD so should still be usable during the Rampage GCD trigger.

[Firefall]

Maybe I missed something, but pretty sure Rampage doesn't double-dip Enrage. It just does damage as if you were enraged even if you were not.

The more I read the more it seems to me like you should keep above 50 rage while enraged and the moment enrage drops pop a Rampage while waiting for BT to come back up.

Also - as you mentioned earlier Firefall - Heroic Strike might be just a required ability to use while Rampage is going on since it's off the GCD so should still be usable during the Rampage GCD trigger.

What? No, I'm not saying it does. Which is exactly the point, it's purpose is pretty clearly defined as a non-Enraged rage dump, and RB for during Enrage. I was saying that Rampage being a non-Enraged rage dump only ability is okay.

And yeah, that's sounding about right to me, too. That doesn't seem impossible to manage either if you don't go overboard on HS during Enrage, and if you took Enraging Blows or The 50% Rage boost you can end up coming out of being Enraged having gained Rage despite spamming RB!

And I could see that happening. I've been toying with trying that in my testing on Alpha tonight, and think it may be the case in certain high rage situations. But do remember that HS isn't very strong if you are not Enraged (it *does* double dip!). It'll depend on how things get balanced, but the longer GCD could make way for Heroic Strike if your have way too much Rage and are not running Carnage. (It does, however, also make the animation for Rampage look even cooler on my Undead! Throws a spin in there! Epic looking before the final hit, haha).

[Archimtiros]

It's all about fast attack, are you running a meter at all? I'm wondering if we're going to return to the days of 20% white damage. My guess is yes, but I won't feel too bad about it if things like Raging Blow fill my screen with a nice big yellow number with regularity.

No meters, I'm not even sure if any addons will work yet (probably not); but yes, with any amount of Enrage uptime we will see high auto attack percentages. Keep in mind that melee is already ~12-15% of our damage on single target fights.

- - - Updated - - -

Let me know when you get to Prot. Be sure to mention Ultimatum lets Heroic Strike automatically crit, which is great, except that Prot doesn't have it anymore. It got replaced by Focused Rage, an on-next-attack boost that I swore they said was stupid when they removed it years ago.

EDIT: Using http://legion.wowhead.com/talent#Mwy

I probably won't for a few days, I'll be at the video game awards tomorrow night, and hung over the next day. I'll get something by the weekend if nobody has beaten me to it though!

- - - Updated - - -

btw what are the cooldowns on Heroic Leap/Charge? I remember them being bugged in the initial datamining and showing 0s, and have heard rumors of 12s charge being baseline. Any truth to that?

They haven't changed, Charge is 20s, HL is 45 (30 if talented).

- - - Updated - - -

Is this based on anything though?
I understand impressions, but don't feel like there is anything to discuss until 110.

I'm excited for and not excited for various changes, but don't see much use in discussing it now, this early. Especially here.

10 years of hardcore raiding experience, and my own impressions as one of the leading experts of the Warrior class isn't enough?

- - - Updated - - -

Is it possible that this is all working as intended? If Rampage was the best option even when Enraged we'd never use anything else so it needs drawbacks, and if everything lined up perfectly 100% of the time it'd be kinda boring because there would be no room for improvement in each dump cycle. I don't think that the intended design is to always be able to use the max number of Raging Blows during Enrage or a DR, for example. It's never been the design that you can always have every window be perfect. BR gives us a free perfect window, so using it wisely is part of the skill cap.

That said even just one more second onto Recklessness, or one or two more onto Enrage would go a really long way. Everything being in units of 6 (DR, Berserking, Enrage) and then Recklessness being 5 is clunky.

Not sure if you're asking me, since you made a big show in the other thread of wanting to put me on ignore.

But what the hell, I'm not doing anything important right now. To answer your question, it's precisely because it's clunky that it's a problem. There's a line between offering room for improvement as a player, and making things overtly convoluted.

Let's break it down:

• You've got BzR to handicap your Enrage on a 30s CD. But then Dragon Roar, the thing you want Enrage to line up with the most, is on a 20s cooldown.
• You might want to put Storm Bolt inside Dragon Roar too, but it's on a 30s CD as well, so it doesn't line up with Dragon Roar either. For that matter, why does a talented attack on a 30s CD hit for less than a Raging Blow to begin with?
• You want to use Recklessness with your Enraged Dragon Roar, but it's duration is only 5 seconds, so do you line it up with the beginning of your Dragon Roar or the end?
• Rampage deals damage over two seconds, if you use it too late, it's going to fall outside of your Recklessness, maybe outside of your Dragon Roar, so how much damage do you lose by using it at the start of DR and risking a Raging Blow falling out of Reck, versus using it at the end of DR and risking only part of the 5 hits falling out of Reck?

Hopefully you see the point I'm making, it's not about making things stupid simple, it's about making them intuitive enough for the average player to grasp without needing a guide to write out a 10 step plan on how to open their rotation. As I said in my OP, this is precisely the reason the game has a continual reliance on theorycrafters and third party resources to help players learn to play "optimally" and why novice players are ridiculed for playing "incorrectly".

This kind of convolution simply isn't necessary, and doesn't add anything beneficial to the game. It doesn't need a high skill cap, the difficulty of the game already exists, it comes from executing a proper rotation for an extended period of time while performing mechanics.

Of course, this isn't to say that a rotation needs to be overly simplified, down to 3 buttons either. Strictly speaking, a rotation only needs 3 things to work: It needs to be intuitive, engaging and fluid. Oddly misaligned timers simply don't accomplish those goals.