Won't everyone need to raid for pvp gear?

[Deleted]

It's as if people come on here commenting without thinking.

Let's just take this slowly so you all understand.

Based on what the devs have described thus far and basic logic:

- Gear with the same ilvl as Mythic will never be rewarded from PvP as that would cause PvErs to feel forced into PvP to get gear for raiding - it just won't happen.
- Diminishing returns on stats past a certain ilvl still means that the gear of a higher ilvl is better - just not by as much as if there was no DR.*
-> The gear available from PvP will be worse than Mythic gear for PvP.

I don't see how this is hard to understand.

Regardless of what Lore is trying to say they're all contradicting themselves. The developers are describing the new features, and based on what they're telling us Mythic gear will be BiS and then Lore is basically going all "No they don't mean what they're saying!". Personally I'm much more inclined to trust what the devs are saying and thus I give critique based on that.

* See Chilton quote from yogscast interview "When you get a new piece of gear it's like oh well it did something but it's really dramatically compressed".

Exactly, it's baffling how many people didn't watch the 2 interviews or worse didn't undestand a word.

It's simple really, as long as there is no pvp specific gear and no gear normalization (it was in one or both of the interviews and was as straightforward as "is gear normalized in PVP ?" "No. The pve ilvl you have is what you get.") then gear you obtain in pvp can't be better than mythic gear in pvp unless it has a higher ilvl.

Do you actually believe for one second that PVP gear will have higher or equal ilvl to PVE gear ? The diminishing returns on stats from higher ilvl will only reduce the difference, not reverse it or negate it completly, hence why it's 100% logical to believe that, in the current iteration of the pre pre pre alpha, PVE mythic gear will be better than not just entry level gear, but also top end "not pvp gear but acquired in pvp" even if it's by just 1%.

BTW don't get fooled by the 7% number, they are obviously far from being able to give specific numbers as they're at the conceptual stage, this number was thrown to give a very rough order of magnitude.

It is a very bold and controversial change, and even the devs are conscious of that, just listen at how chilton emphasizes how small the gap is or better yet how many times Allen Brack said it was an extremely risky move. Do you believe they would say such things if pvp gear was still 100% better than PVE gear in PVP ? Did ou hear them say pvp gear will be better ? How hard would it have been ? No, in fact their only line of defence was "the gap will be so small in pvp that it almost won't matter".

And EVEN if mythic gear was only 0.0001% better in pvp, it would still be terrible because of the choice in secondary stats : not every specs has the same weight for each stat, so unless they release "pvp obtained gear" with every secondary stat combination (has never happened before even when we had pvp gear), BIS pvp gear will have at least several PVE armor slots.

Then you have to factor in things that are not just ilvl dependant like PVE trinkets. Classes with a 1min CD burst might want this PVE trinket or classes with 2 minc cds the 2 min one etc etc so again some specs would have to get their BIS pvp items in raids.

Then you have set bonuses ? it's impossible that pvp obtained gear will have the same set bonuses as pve gear as that would force raiders to farm pvp to complete their sets, and that creates just as many problems as it solves if not more. And there won't be any pvp set bonuses. So the only logical decision is to disable pve set bonuses in PVP, but then why not just add pvp gear to begin with if they are willing to make such a separation, and more importantly what about world pvp ? Will they disable set bonuses in PVP ?

Finally, people who refer to

Misleading title is misleading.

What Tom said was that someone wearing the absolute best PvE gear in the game might have a 7% advantage over someone who had just hit level 100 -- and thus, had not collected any gear at all. There was nothing about his statement at all that could be taken as "the best gear for PvP comes from PvE." I have no idea how you could have gotten that from what he said, unless you're purposefully trying to stir up trouble.

Our intent -- as it has been for several expansions now, and as it is currently in Warlords -- is for PvP gear to be the best available in PvP. That has not changed in Legion.

as if it was some sort of definitive answear need to use their analytic skills a little bit more. Lore is obviously contradicting Tom Chilton and J. Allen Brack as there is no pvp gear and it is impossible for pve gear you obtain in pvp to be better than mythic gear without some sort of item level normalization which was confirmed by senior developers to be gone. What we have instead is diminishing returns on each subsequent ilvl. Lore is "only" a CM, and has be completly wrong on many occasions because he wasn't up to date.

When someone mentioned there was no pvp gear his answear was

Posted by Psyfriend

I'm curious how you guys will accomplish that with the complete removal of "pvp gear."

Hopefully more info soon to clarify this gray area.

Yep, definitely something that needs clarifying. At the moment, we're just waiting for developers to get back from gamescom so we can be sure we have all of our facts straight.

He wasn't even aware that pvp gear was gone and that normalization was gone, so how can people use this beautiful PR fail as an argument is beyond me.

[RelaZ]

Very important and correct stuff

This.

Someone got it!

[Alroxas]

Maybe I don't understand.

From what I've gathered, the goal is to move forward into Legion with NO distinctions between PvP and PvE Gear. Gear is gear and can be used in both settings. What changes is that the PvP specific bonuses (whether it's PvP set bonuses to class tomes that add/change abilities) are all moved over to this new PvP talent system that levels up by columns (versus rows in PvE).

The pathway for gear is still available to players via either Raiding or PvPing (or a mix of both). The question does remain on how this gets balanced when you consider that non-tier set pieces are generally weaker than tier set pieces from raids. Either you would disable the set bonuses in PvP (so you don't have to balance them) or you make it so that PvP can also get the tier set pieces from within PvP. The latter causes some concern because now you're looking at giving the option (which really gets perceived as a requirement) for raiders to PvP in order to contribute to their progression. Similar to how a whole slew of players had to do the two PvP BGs for their legendary cloak back in MoP.

If no scaling is taking place for PvP, then yes you could say that Mythic raiding is important for its gear (due to ilv) but if the difference really is only 7% from a Mythic outfitted player vs a freshly dinged 110 character in blues/greens would it really matter that much?

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so unless they release "pvp obtained gear" with every secondary stat combination

However, we've seen that the baleful tokens in WoD have been used pretty decently to "randomly" roll stats of nearly every secondary stat combination. Add in the empowering token (or something similar) to selectively upgrade the correct secondaries up to a decent level seems like a good system they could implement for Legion.

Yes it's time consuming and it might not be as effective as PvE methods but then again... how many Mythic Raid teams can people easily join?

Then again, until Blizzard releases more information, we can only speculate which doesn't really help that much except add fuel to the "I hate Blizzard for doing X" fire.

[Reveries1]

Really not sure why they don't just cap it. I'm not positive how I feel about this as someone who bounces between pvp and pve. It will be nice to not have to grind out gear to pvp but I dont like the idea of someone who doesn't pvp having stronger pvp potential. I am pretty sure they even said they want to have the pvp obtained gear be best for pvp but how do you do that without that just being the pvp gear or having it have a pvp stat.

In the end we really will want to see the difference between the PvP obtained gear compared to the mythic raid gear and things like trinkets that don't just give you solid stats but different effects.

[ponies]

so essentially i can go in with my lvl 60 set and it will be ilvl 800 and good to go?

[Deleted]

so essentially i can go in with my lvl 60 set and it will be ilvl 800 and good to go?

no.
10char

[Reveries1]

so essentially i can go in with my lvl 60 set and it will be ilvl 800 and good to go?

More like you can go in with your ilvl800 set and it will be like ilvl800 and mythic raider bob can go in with his ilvl900 set and it will drop down to being like ilvl807.

[Tacotruck]

Everything I see so far says we are going to be seeing "Raid or Die" v2 in Legion. PvE heroes steamrolling through PvP matches because they have access to gear, and maybe more importantly, artifact upgrades, that PvP players will not have access to.

So far they have said there will be no item level normalization, and gear comes almost all from PvE. There has been NO MENTION of ANY way to upgrade an artifact via PvP.

[araine]

Maybe I don't understand.

The announcement started with stuff like "the fully geared pvp guy is almost twice as strong as the lesser geared pvp guy", and ended with a whole bunch of pvp specific talents.


Somewhere in there was the removal of pvp gear... right?


So.... how does that work, exactly? I mean, lets say your main, Maindred, and your alt, Altbert are level 110 with dungeon blues. You start pvping and earning honor points. Maindred has some points, Altbert has the same points. Then, the raid starts, and Maindred gets some purps.

1- Won't you do a lot better with Maindred than Altbert in a battleground? Maindred and Altbert have the same pvp progression, but Maindred has raid gear.
2- Won't you do a lot better with Maindred than Altbert in world pvp?
3- How does Altbert earn gear, if it doesn't come from pvp?


Am I just misunderstanding everything?

The one that does pvp more often will be stronger the honor progression into talents for pvp only will be the main difference and outside of that it will actually be skill based pvp and not just who had the best gear

[Vastoorode]

I really don't understand why people are so upset, I mean, how many % of the wow players clear current raid on mythic during the PvP season, and how many of them acually PvPs aswell, I guess it's hardly anyone from the top PvE guilds that PvPs.
And as someone wrote here, a full mytic gear set will probly not have the optimal stats on all gearpices anyway so Bis for PvP will most likely not be full mytic gear. And in WoD there are ways to get normal or hc raid gear in the garnisson for example and it will probly be some way in Legion aswell.

And if the gear difference will only be a few % between normal raid gear and mytic it really wont be a problem.
It is a problem if it is like now between honor gear and Conquest gear, with current gear difference a bad player will most likely beat a good player, but with a really small difference they won't.

And if the difference between a newly dinged lvl110 player and a full mytic player is around 7% it's not any different than a newly dinged lvl100 player in WoD facing a full geared PvP player now, ofc the geared player will win cause it should be a big difference between a newly dinged player and a player that have played for a long time and farmed gear, doesn't mather if it is PvE gear or PvP gear.

And in WPvP it have never been gear balance and thats ok imo aslong as the PvP talents will be Active in WPvP and it will be.

The only thing I wonder about is trinkets but I'm sure that Blizzard will make sure that trinkets won't be sick like in Wrath and Cata and so on.

People just make this a bigger problem than it is.

But I do agree that BLizzard could be better to explain how it will work, but we will know at the lates during beta so people have to chill and don't se it as the World is going under. And everyone that says that you will quit if high end raiders get a small gear advantage will not be missed anyway.

[PrairieChicken]

And in WPvP it have never been gear balance and thats ok imo aslong as the PvP talents will be Active in WPvP and it will be.

Ever played 5.4?

[Nhodjin]

More like you can go in with your ilvl800 set and it will be like ilvl800 and mythic raider bob can go in with his ilvl900 set and it will drop down to being like ilvl807.

Atleast one person gets it, no wonder blizzard has such a huge problem with whiners when people don't understand anything they're saying. This is given from like the first time they talked about it. The only thing that concern me is the problem with trinkets scaled down or not.

I'm just happy that the gear i have one me in Legion is the gear i'll use in pvp or pve, won't need to change.

[Tyrannica]

So far they have said there will be no item level normalization, and gear comes almost all from PvE. There has been NO MENTION of ANY way to upgrade an artifact via PvP.

maybe you missed the video of the dev explaining that artifacts can indeed be upgraded via PvP.

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btw, no pvp specific gear should also mean no pvp set bonus for each spec of a class? Is that cool? I have my doubts...i think they dropped the ball with this, hopefully pvp gear will be availible at the start of the expansion, cause i am dead sure, it will be added back later on after all the flames and tears.

[rda]

Exactly, it's baffling how many people didn't watch the 2 interviews or worse didn't undestand a word.

It's simple really, ...

I just want to thank you for a very calm post which sums what's going on with all the important details.

Needless to say, I agree with every word, that's really what they said and that's really what's going on, and it isn't all that difficult to figure out after you watch the interviews - for those who missed some of them, your post serves as a good summary.

[Tacotruck]

maybe you missed the video of the dev explaining that artifacts can indeed be upgraded via PvP.

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btw, no pvp specific gear should also mean no pvp set bonus for each spec of a class? Is that cool? I have my doubts...i think they dropped the ball with this, hopefully pvp gear will be available at the start of the expansion, cause i am dead sure, it will be added back later on after all the flames and tears.

I have watched all the videos I can find and I have not seen one mention of artifact upgrades being available via PvP content. I do remember seeing that one of the artifact skins will be unlocked via PvP, but the skins are cosmetic and have nothing to do with progressing it's power. Only PvE content has been mentioned as a way to upgrade the artifacts power.

If you know of a video or interview where they said something different, please link it.

[Eazy]

Just make BEST PvP gear for honor and let us reforge stats...

Or just make a NPC near Dalaran PvP area who sells whole gear for nothing(with different stats for everyone of course).

[RussW210]

I don't think they will go through with the "no pvp gear" idea. This game is about playing and gearing up - it would make no sense if they took that away. The real solution, if you're taking away PVP gear, is to not have ANY benefits from PVE gear at all. Let the prestige bonus talents be your deciding factor.

Ask a hardcore raider to win 5 rated battlegrounds a week to get that top piece of tier gear and see how they react.

On discussion of the PVP Prestige System, I get it. The benefits of having separate talents from PVE to be able to balance things better. But what kind of talents are we talking about? An extra trinket? Will that really make things more balanced, or how is that any different than having better gear than someone?

[Reveries1]

I don't think they will go through with the "no pvp gear" idea. This game is about playing and gearing up - it would make no sense if they took that away. The real solution, if you're taking away PVP gear, is to not have ANY benefits from PVE gear at all. Let the prestige bonus talents be your deciding factor.

More people misunderstanding. You still can get gear from pvping it is just not PvP specific like it is now. I haven't read anything about how they will do it but I imagine it will be in the form of quests.

examples:
Get X amount of honorable kills in Y batteground
Win X amount of skirmishes
Win X amount of CTF games
etc.

Again they have said you will be able to get gear threw pvp they just didnt say exactly how that would happen. Big take away is again, instead of being rewarded pvp gear you will be rewarded gear as there will no longer be pvp gear or pve gear it will all just be gear that everyone uses regardless of if they want to pvp or pve.

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On discussion of the PVP Prestige System, I get it. The benefits of having separate talents from PVE to be able to balance things better. But what kind of talents are we talking about? An extra trinket? Will that really make things more balanced, or how is that any different than having better gear than someone?

Extra trinket? You are forgetting that pvp gear is gone. So assuming you are not a human (wonder what they will do with that) you would only have a trinket if you took that talent in the pvp tree. They only gave examples of possible talents so we dont really know what actual talents they will have but I am almost certain a CC break will be one unless everyone gets a baseline break.

[PrairieChicken]

So far my predictions:

<In instances> - Mythic gear is the best, but the difference will be 'small enough' for all the white knights to scream "It is small and doesn't matter, you are not forced to anything, get over it haters"

<In wpvp> - Mythic players will crush everyone else, but "WPVP is inherently imbalanced" so who cares, it is totally fine, there are rainbows in the sky so get over it haters.