European migrant crisis [Megathread]

[Noradin]

If they are labled refugees. You need to sort them, identify them and then apply for asylum. If you have no paperwork you might as well be a terrorist, we can't confirm or deny it!

The burden of proof is on the accuser in that case.

[Karamaru]

And? The point was that Germany is not asking for EU lands to distribute the current load, but the next batch. Secondly you do know not everyone will be granted Asylum and Germany has a history of booting out Asylum seekers, once the homeland is considered safe.

In the 90's everyone was mad at Germans because they started kicking out Srebrenica survivors, Serbs, Croats and everyone else who claimed Asylum in Germany because the war ended.

Furthermore Germany is very strict with Asylum claims.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...29_YB15_IV.png

In 2014 Germany evaluted 44 335 Asylum claims. 37 340 were rejected.

It still doesnt awsner the question that EU countries will take the next batch so yea if 90% are rejected.

[Deleted]

Aside from 3), all of these are pretty outlandish and ridiculous to an extreme extent. Heck several of them have been disproven in the past, which just caused you to drop them a few sides before bringing them back up again.

Let's take 1. alone, it's complete bogus. There's absolutely no reason why we should be unable to control this much less discourage these people from coming. Denying them any kind of support at any point alone would discourage a lot of them. The issue here isn't unable to do something about it otherwise either, it's about being unwilling to do what would be necessary.

There's little to no issue with rounding these people up and sending them back asap beyond some "moral issues" you guys constantly try to etablish here.

So you want to prove them wrong or keep talking bullshit?

point 1} whats outlandish about it?
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world...isis-1.2177195

We have millions waiting on coasts to come over nevermind what amerkel or orban say.

[Stelio Kontos]

It's hilarious, Germany now doing what the nations they've been criticizing have been asking to do for weeks/months.

And to top it off, they're trying to blame Greece. Well, congrats, you gutted our economy and sovereignty. Now you want to whine we're not machine-gunning peasants in boats? It's not like Germany's offering much help to Italy or Greece. Why should we spend what little Germany has left us with protecting THEM from migrants and refugees who don't even want to stay in our country?

[Deleted]

Have you thought about the little problem, that there are some Eastern European countries, who are not very happy about the prospect to take in these people, due to some EU dictate?
If this oppressive rhetoric from the EU government and Germany continues, the damage to the European idea will be irreversible and the fall of the EU is actually not so far fetched then.

And yet again. I did not say that Eastern Europe should accept Asylum claims. I was pointing out that Germany is not asking EU members to take a share of the current refugee's but the ones comming in the future.

Wtch by the way I find hillarious that Eastern Europeans are whinning about because they are free to reject the Asylum claims.

Edit: Furthermor excuse me if I do not take the threat of the EU dying serious everytime something happens. I am still waiting for the Greek financial trouble to bring it all down or the Econmic problems faced by Southern Europe to bring the house of cards down.

[Deleted]

I should remind you, that your effort discussing with him is a capital waste of time and energy, which you could spend more constructively.

Of course its a waste of time if your points arent based on reality but on intollerance and fearmongering

[lonely zergling]

And? The point was that Germany is not asking for EU lands to distribute the current load, but the next batch. Secondly you do know not everyone will be granted Asylum and Germany has a history of booting out Asylum seekers, once the homeland is considered safe.

In the 90's everyone was mad at Germans because they started kicking out Srebrenica survivors, Serbs, Croats and everyone else who claimed Asylum in Germany because the war ended.

Furthermore Germany is very strict with Asylum claims.
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...29_YB15_IV.png

In 2014 Germany evaluted 44 335 Asylum claims. 37 340 were rejected.

The one big problem with sending people back is that they can sue against it, so it takes much resource and time and effort to kick one out. This is why there are not many people beeing kicked out atm (even if they are not granted asyulum). It's a very hard process to kick someone out.

[Noradin]

Because religion, maybe? They obey it so women are not allowed or do almost anything and kids kinda the same. This isn't Africa where they recuit kids, they stick to the religious law so literally 99.9999% of terrorits are males.

Go read a statistic you din't pull out of your ass...

[Renyo]

I'm not dismissing the issue, that the educational system in Germany has its problems. But regarding the system in Germany with many government funded systems like f.e. BAFOEG. I severely doubt that the income of the parents has this kind of impact on the educational achievements by the descendants as this study implies.
Once again, I was able to get quite far in Germany regarding the education, while coming from a poor Eastern European family. You posted prior a nice graphic, which shows the educational achievements by ethnic group. Can you explain to me then, why the Polish and Russian people are so well integrated / educated? Are you trying to imply, that these people are in average much more wealthy, than their Turkish counterparts?
Because for long as I know, these people came with almost nothing to Germany.
If you say, that wealth has this kind of impact. This would mean, that all the other ethnic groups in Germany are therefore wealthier in average, than the people from the Muslim ethnic group.

Yes... But fact is, even my fellow countrymen from Lithuania are often mentioned in those criminal statistics in Germany. And trust me, the Lithuanians are extremely few in numbers.
The Turks are so often mentioned, because they are 3 times as much likely to engage in criminal activities, than the rest of the citizens in Germany.
And the parallel society is a result of the segregation on their own volition. Nobody actually forced these people to form even enclaves in every larger city in Germany, where it is not even needed to speak the native language - Which by the way is one of the main reasons, these people fail regarding their education.
We can't handwave this, as not sufficient welcome culture shown by the native people. This is a very good result of incompatibility of this particular culture with our own.

At least we agree that the social background has an effect on the education you get. So the discussion now would be about how high that impact is. I'd say the ~50% the study suggests is more or less accurate. You would say it is lower. I can accept that and I guess it is not fruitful to discuss about this further because it would probably end up in a dull discussion.
At the moment I can not explain why the Poles and Russians have a, compared to other ethnic groups, quite high educational level. But I guess you did not explain why the Italians and Serbians have the same struggle as the Turks do. That would suggest that it is not a Muslim vs Christian culture thing. There must be other factors, some I tried to explain. Also I do not have a statistic about the financial and educational situation of the immigrants from Poland and Russia (the "actual" immigrants, not their children). If you have one I would appreciate it if you post it. Maybe I'll find one so we could resolve that.
And just as I said: If there are high numbers of immigrants from one country they tend to live next to each other. And that is bad but it is not a 'Turks only' thing. But it is also hard to stop that and I do not have a solution for that. In addition to this 'natural' phenomenon a great section of the population and politicians supposed that these 'guest-workers' are indeed guests who will go home after some time. So there was not much 'forced' integration.

Edit:
I also feel ignored by Deleth . He is always speaking of 'you guys' (I guess that also counts me in) but only responding to Djalil.

[Deleted]

Of course its a waste of time if your points arent based on reality but on intollerance and fearmongering

You'd have a point if 90% of your responses were handwaving with those exact sentiments. It wears thing after the 300th time. Reality does not agree with you, you don't get that yet.

[Wells]

If anyone is confused on why the refugees are trying to get out of Hungary:

[Noradin]

Things were supposed to work that way, till the day Merkel opened the floodgate, so that she can be a hero. Then she "pushes" other countries to share the shit she brought in. Other than "feel good" moment, I see no reason to do that. Genuine refugees or not, welcome to Germany :P

She didn't open the floodgates she agreed to take a few thousand refugees off the hands of Hungary so that Hungary could get some breathing room.

- - - Updated - - -

Yesterday the German embassy in Afghanistan called Berlin and told them that the Afghan government has just issued 1.000.000 visas for travel into Europe.

And on what authority would the Afghan government do such a thing?

[lonely zergling]

If anyone is confused on why the refugees are trying to get out of Hungary:

Yeah, that looks not very civilized. But do we know if they tried it the normal way but the refugees didn't form lines? I don't know if we can just watch a video that shows not all we need to judge about it. They should have set it up better, or enforced them to line up, thats true.

[Ravenblade]

Wait, let me get this right:

1. Germany "urges" that the rest of the EU needs to accept the quotas or "there will be consequences".
2. Scolds countries like Hungary for being "intolerant"
3. The migrants finally reach Germany, Germany get to see firsthand what is going on, they don't just suspend Schenge, they close their borders, letting Austrians deal with the thousands of migrants.
4. The rest of the EU right now:

Seriously what the fuck.

As I have said before: Germany is Europe's Epimetheus. This is because in terms of controlling the government is bad at handling thing from top-down and bottom-up. They have to resort to measures akin to detonating a bridge in order to stop a wildfire.

As someone who's opposed to racial and cultural stereotypes, not opposed to the Welcoming Culture, I mean I just came back from spending two days in my state capital (since European Heritage Days meant a lot of the countless cultural heritage buildings were free of charge to visit), the city's main square is basically crowded with refugees and immigrants with all kinds of (visibly) different social backgrounds now and not opposed to helping those in need I say it's of no use to not talk about the effects of biting off more than you can chew. There's questions being frequently asked by people to which there are no official and serious answers given as a result people jump onto the stereotype train or the train of easy answers given by individuals who now see their chance to shine with answers from the treasure chests of rightwing demagogues. This works even easier in regions which had barely any contact with foreigners and were basically just among themselves until now.

The main issues as I see them is:
That we are giving too much hope to too many people that we cannot currently hope to accomodate properly. That they are basically unable to fit it either by their own choice or simply because they are incapable of it, either because they can't or because we can't really offer them actual and fair opportunities without being unfair to locals.
That there will be tensions among refugees to difficult to deal with especially by police and security personnel not trained and prepared for it.
That people feel, due to the increased amounts of refugee homes and anonymity among the masses, more and more secure and motivated to commit arson without being ever caught.

In a sense it's similar to East Germans fleeing over Hungary and Austria, they felt welcome, once a lot of them tried to find jobs they suddenly learned what people really thought of them: That Ossis are a blight upon the land.

Realistically simply giving them jobs won't be easy to do either. Everyone in Germany has to run through at least basic vocational training taking at best at least two years unless you are exceptionally skilled and have an university level degree or better. In my state there's not many jobs for the unskilled really, people were still leaving the state before this crisis and causing a fake decrease in unemployment. I think accepting a certain yet capped amount of refugees is doable, Dublin protocol isn't going to cut it though, but accepting an unlimited amount of them while being wholly unprepared for it not quite a wise thing to do. Logistically, logically and from a humanitarian standpoint. Which means that preparation and long-term thinking is king but you can't do that...as Epimetheus.

[Deleted]

You'd have a point if 90% of your responses were handwaving with those exact sentiments. It wears thing after the 300th time. Reality does not agree with you, you don't get that yet.

So I'm sure it would be easy for you to pick any one of the points shown and turn it around.
Or... Are you just going to talk shite about me cause you can't take any of the points out?

[Wells]

Yeah, that looks not very civilized. But do we know if they tried it the normal way but the refugees didn't form lines? I don't know if we can just watch a video that shows not all we need to judge about it. They should have set it up better, or enforced them to line up, thats true.

Even if you're having trouble lining them up, which I see no reason to think they did given the space and relatively small number of people, chucking food into a crowd of desperate people is a fucking stupid thing to do.

Hungary is actively hostile to refugees, I'd be desperate to get out too.

[Deleted]

*snip*

Can you name the cities, where you will find Russian enclaves, where the people are only speaking Russian and therefore mostly unable to participate in many social interactions with the native population?
Because in raw numbers, over 4mil. Russians with German roots came during the 90es to Germany.
When we take into account, that in Germany there are living ~3mil. Turks, the social impact of both ethnic groups should be similar.
But... we don't hear / read much about the integration problems of the Russians in Germany, or do we?

Although the social impact of the 4 mil Russians was noticeable, it can't be even closely compared to the social and social economical impact the Turkish immigrants had in Germany.

It is not a phenomenon, but only the logical conclusion of it, that one culture was compatible with the German culture and one was not. These cultural differences are the foundation for all the following problems regarding integration / education and therefore success in the career / employment rate.

[Deleted]

At least we agree that the social background has an effect on the education you get. So the discussion now would be about how high that impact is. I'd say the ~50% the study suggests is more or less accurate. You would say it is lower. I can accept that and I guess it is not fruitful to discuss about this further because it would probably end up in a dull discussion.
At the moment I can not explain why the Poles and Russians have a, compared to other ethnic groups, quite high educational level. But I guess you did not explain why the Italians and Serbians have the same struggle as the Turks do. That would suggest that it is not a Muslim vs Christian culture thing. There must be other factors, some I tried to explain. Also I do not have a statistic about the financial and educational situation of the immigrants from Poland and Russia (the "actual" immigrants, not their children). If you have one I would appreciate it if you post it. Maybe I'll find one so we could resolve that.
And just as I said: If there are high numbers of immigrants from one country they tend to live next to each other. And that is bad but it is not a 'Turks only' thing. But it is also hard to stop that and I do not have a solution for that. In addition to this 'natural' phenomenon a great section of the population and politicians supposed that these 'guest-workers' are indeed guests who will go home after some time. So there was not much 'forced' integration.

Edit:
I also feel ignored by Deleth . He is always speaking of 'you guys' (I guess that also counts me in) but only responding to Djalil.

Reyno you have to understand that many of the posters in here carry resentments or unsolved business from past threads.
I could agree with deleth and his irrational emotional driven points now he'd still be arguing against me.
It's a privilege I built fighting over hot topics in various threads
I'm sure you'll get to that point as well.

By the way welcome in.

[Deleted]

If anyone is confused on why the refugees are trying to get out of Hungary:

And what's the problem?! The "Refugees" should make a line so all get their food, if they want to be treated like humans, they should themselves act like them!

[lonely zergling]

Even if you're having trouble lining them up, which I see no reason to think they did given the space and relatively small number of people, chucking food into a crowd of desperate people is a fucking stupid thing to do.

Hungary is actively hostile to refugees, I'd be desperate to get out too.

I don't think that they are actively hostile to refugees. What would you do if desperate people won't line up and wait for their time to get food. There are alpha ones that get the food at the front and won't go away or cant go away because there is pressure from the back. I would say both sides are responsible for this. They could have set it up better and the refugees could act more civilized and thankfull.

Why would they even let people get so close to them if they just wanted to feed them like dogs? In the video there are people that get the food handed out the normal way (the ones at the front).