How complicated can a DPS spec be?

[Veer]

I have always tanked (with 3 of the tank specs in game). But, this expac I am not raiding, just casually playing, so I have been trying my hand at several DPS specs like in LFRs and such. I had fun and all learning and perfecting my rotations etc until I came to feral. Even Bookman was tricky but then Feral just sits right at top for the most complicated DPS spec i have ever come across. And in my opinion not in a good way. I am not an expert and just giving a point of view of someone who has just picked up this spec but has put enough effort in mastering it to discuss it. Including Weakauras to track snapshots etc. But from a noobish point of view such as mine I find myself worrying about the below things while playing a Feral:

1. Energy management.
2. Tracking combo points.
3. Tracking multiple bleeds. Even thrash as there is a point where it can be used.
4. Tracking savage roar.
5. Tracking predatory instincts and using it at the right time for maximum effect before it expires.
6. Using berserkers and incarnation on CD. Hence keeping an eye on it. Even if you use an addon to tell you when, it still rolls into the rotation and complexity. Not to mention using it properly at opening followed by a heal if you take blood talons which you should.
7. Managing Tiger’s fury. Yes yes use it on CD but still you have to manage it. Not to mention there are times when using it means wasting energy such as at opener and when you have berserker’s going on the energy just won’t drop low enough esp if you have lust too.
8. managing Pandemic. Like it was not enough just to refresh bleeds but do it in with pandemic in effect so you see 6 secs remaining? wait until it’s under 4.5.
9. Making sure you are tracking 25% health of target so you know to use ferocious bite now and not to forget rip at that moment should be most powerful and so manage that too.
10. the right time to FB. like above 50% engery and when bleeds are good.

I don’t know if I missed anything but this much in itself is just too much to worry about for any DPS spec. It’s not just above things to worry about but they interact with each other to make it even more complicated.

Now, let’s not forget that all this goes hand in hand with what any melee spec has to worry about like staying in range and avoiding fire and interrupting and fight and boss mechanics. So, that’s not forgiving either. So my question is do you guys agree that feral is too complicated to play with? some may enjoy it just because of this complexity but then if you were doing progression would you pick feral?

PS: Don’t bash me. I already know I am a Feral noob. Just let me have your opinion so that I can learn something.

[Cateaka]

1. Energy management.

Lets start here. Energy Management is probably the most difficult part here. It takes a lot of practice to actually know when you need to dump energy and then pool energy. You learn it after a while but really the trick to it is knowing the boss mechanics and if you have to move soon or not. Personally, I like to dump my energy as long as I know I don't need to re-apply a Rip/SR and try to burn off as much as I can before I TF for maximization; This is from a raiding perspective. You can use BadKitty/WeakAuras to help track your Energy too, it might help you more than you know.

2. Tracking combo points.

Tracking the CP are easy. You can use any number of tools to do so. The problem with this is predicting or trying to get good RNG with your Crits when you need them. Our Primal Fury is crucial a lot of the times and sometimes it never works when we want it to; Getting Crits, I mean. Other than that its pure prediction of what you need and when. Heres an example; On the Opener you should be starting with 0 + the Blood Talons proc so your first Rake from Stealth is empowered, if it Crits its 2 CP's but if not its 1. You want the Rake to Crit for best opening potential following that you want to Shred to 5 CP. If you must TF for energy try to make sure you get your Rip Empowered with the TF. This is without including the Incar/Zerk burst opening (which I hope you know, but I can explain if needed). Past all of that you learn when you need to spend Energy to get CP when you need them.

3. Tracking multiple bleeds. Even thrash as there is a point where it can be used.

Tracking multiple bleeds is simpler than you think. Affliction Locks and Feral Druids are very similar in this aspect. There is really only 2 real bleeds you should be watching (Not including Thrash). Rake and Rip are the only two in that list. Fairly Simple if you learn the rotation. Pandemic for Rake is at 4.5 Seconds and Rip is 7.2 Seconds. Learning/Timing that is a little harder but you learn it. You always want to try and refresh them as close to the Pandemic threshold as possible.

4. Tracking savage roar.

Again, Roar is pretty easily tracked. Its crucial to keep up and running at 95%+ efficiency but sometimes its harder to do if you fail with your Energy/CP Generation or even during Target Swapping. You should pretty much keep this thing up ALL the time. If you let it fall off for more than 5 Seconds you need to step back and think about your Rotation/Energy management skills again. Even if you do a Roar for 1 CP its up for 18 Seconds. The Pandemic Threshold is a little different, "because of the specifics of the mechanic, but just keep in mind that when you're applying a 5 combo point roar you can refresh as soon as 12.6 seconds. The threshold is lower if you're applying a fewer combo point roar, but generally you shouldn't be applying a roar of less than 5 combo points unless is your current roar is about to run out (~3 seconds or less, roughly)." -Agixx, Fluiddruid.Net

5. Tracking predatory instincts and using it at the right time for maximum effect before it expires.

I try to use my Predatory Swiftness proc's at roughly .75-.5 seconds left on it. it leaves enough time for you to run 1 more GCD of Rake/Shred. I think it takes practice, but thats how I prefer to use it. I think using it anywhere after 1 Second is risky, but sometimes its worth it. Using it for the maximum effect though is using it at 5CP for a Rip with both the Blood Talons Proc AND TF. Since the way we Snapshot bleeds that is the most effective way to use it and since that only uses one charge of our Blood Talons the next thing we hope to follow up with is a Rake since it would also be Blood Talons/TF Empowered.

6. Using berserkers and incarnation on CD. Hence keeping an eye on it. Even if you use an addon to tell you when, it still rolls into the rotation and complexity. Not to mention using it properly at opening followed by a heal if you take blood talons which you should.

Berserk and Incarnation should be used on cooldown if possible. You almost always use it on the Opener and pretty much every 3 Minutes after that. The only exception to that rule are cases like Beating Heart of the Mountain where you wanted to line up the 6 Minute Proc of Beating Heart with your Zerk/Incar (Or Mirror of the Blademaster). For openers you want to get into your FB Spam as quickly as possible, being able to get your 5 CP Rip off asap is crucial. It can hurt you if you don't. My Opener is something like this; HT for Talons, Stealth, Pre-Pot at 1 Second, Rake, Incar/Zerk, Shredx2 (More if I get 0 Crits), Rip and then I TF and go into the FB Rotation. It SOUNDS complicated but after you do it for a while it gets easier. Take into consideration this is without Trinket/Ring proc's you want to watch/proc yourself. Practice makes perfect and in this case it takes a bit of practice.

7. Managing Tiger’s fury. Yes yes use it on CD but still you have to manage it. Not to mention there are times when using it means wasting energy such as at opener and when you have berserker’s going on the energy just won’t drop low enough esp if you have lust too.

This is pretty simple to be honest. Using TF when you're low Energy makes sense since you should be dumping your energy at the 3-5 Second mark of TF's Cooldown. You want to try and time it as best as possible with a 5CP Rip/FB and not try and waste the energy on a SR. If you're dumping correctly and you get a good TF down + the Blood Talons, you should be GOLDEN.

8. managing Pandemic. Like it was not enough just to refresh bleeds but do it in with pandemic in effect so you see 6 secs remaining? wait until it’s under 4.5.

I mentioned this once already and I even told you Pandemic timers for Rake, Rip, and Savage Roar.

9. Making sure you are tracking 25% health of target so you know to use ferocious bite now and not to forget rip at that moment should be most powerful and so manage that too.

You should try to aim for a TF/Talon's + CD's/Trinket Proc'd Rip at 26-30% Depending on the Dps of your group. Getting a high snapshot Rip is crucial for our Burn since we don't have to re-apply it during that entire time. Rake isn't different at all, if you can get a good snapshot of Rake that would be great too but its not always the case. After that you just have to make sure you're not letting SR fall off after 25% and you can spend pretty much EVERY CP you get on FB from that point on. Remember to FB only with 50 Energy or more since it does the maximum amount of damage that way.

10. the right time to FB. like above 50% engery and when bleeds are good.

I kind of explained this above but I'll go into more detail. You only want to FB with 50 or more energy and you only want to do it when you have enough time (15 seconds left on Rip, 25+ on SR for an example) to re-apply all of your Bleeds on the Pandemic Timer. You shouldn't try to use your TF to empower your bite until 25%, but if you feel comfortable enough doing so then feel free. I feel as if its better to save the TF for a Blood Talons/TF'd Re-Rip/Rake. You just have to make a judgement call on if you think you can get back to 5CP with good Proc's or not if you want to FB. Sometimes it screws you, sometimes you're very lucky and can squeeze in that extra few FB's.

I don’t know if I missed anything but this much in itself is just too much to worry about for any DPS spec. It’s not just above things to worry about but they interact with each other to make it even more complicated.

Now, let’s not forget that all this goes hand in hand with what any melee spec has to worry about like staying in range and avoiding fire and interrupting and fight and boss mechanics. So, that’s not forgiving either. So my question is do you guys agree that feral is too complicated to play with? some may enjoy it just because of this complexity but then if you were doing progression would you pick feral?

PS: Don’t bash me. I already know I am a Feral noob. Just let me have your opinion so that I can learn something.

Feral has been widely described as the hardest Spec to learn mainly because of everything you need to keep track of and some people just can't do the spec. Everyone learns what they like best and sometimes Feral is just too high of a learning curve for some people.

Avoiding mechanics is just easy. I would almost always give up dps to do mechanics. Even though I lose that damage, I don't die due to damage or a mechanic that I NEED to do. Mechanics > Everything. Damage is important but Mechanics are always more important. Being melee sucks sometimes but you have to compare Feral movement to Boomkin movement. Boomkin Movement is horrendous for them whereas we can move as a Kitty and still be fine. Even a lot of the bosses in HFC have very large Hitboxes so you should never have an issue.

If you haven't, go take a look at Fluiddruid.net and Icyveins.com. Both have excellent tips and tricks for Feral Druids in training. Pawkets(Aggixx) posts in FluidDruid pretty much everyday and Icyveins is just good for learning stats priorities/rotation.

If there are more questions or something I didn't answer to your liking feel free to tag it out and I'll go further into Detail.

[boomkinhero]

If you think it's hard now, be glad you never tried it in past expansions, it's been made easier.

Fact of the matter is, you don't need to be staring at buffs/debuffs when they're just refreshed. If rip is 10s, rake 20s, roar 18s - you can easily already plan how you'll play. Rip soon (no need to be looking at other 2) and when you did that roar then rake etc or w/e (I don't know timing, don't judge me on that ;P). If you try and manage everything without considering the relative times, you're gonna have a bad time.

[ItachiZaku]

Wait for disc bubble to drop. Rip, shred, shred, tiger fury, shred, Bite, /violin prowl

[Seikusa]

but then if you were doing progression would you pick feral?

If you are one of the better players of your raid, then you would still be one of the better or middle performers.
But if you are on of the weaker player of your raid, then you will find your self at the bottom of add dps and somewhere in the middle of boss dps.
It depends on how fast you want to progress through the content.
Here a dps Chart of Feral in Wotlk: http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...20100314061655

[Xar226]

It's definitely the most complicated DPS class I've played. The worst part isn't how complicated it is, however; it's that you aren't properly rewarded for dealing with that complexity. If you perfectly manage it, you're a top third DPS, but there are still a number of specs ahead of you that are easier to play. Likewise, you're only about 3% above your alternate choice of playing a boomkin. On the flip side, if you do not manage it perfectly or near perfectly, you're not even that good. And as the number of targets increase, you slide down the charts regardless of your play.

I've always been a big proponent of the idea that more complex rotations--rotations which are easier to mess up and thus not even do your theoretical DPS--need to award higher DPS when played right. Feral is by no means a BAD spec, but I didn't feel that it was offering a sufficient reward for that complexity and ended up gearing my rogue. More DPS for less effort as subtlety.

I don’t know if I missed anything

As I said, I haven't played feral since early in the expansion, but back then you also had to measure the strength of your bleeds and whether or not to renew them early, especially going into execute phase where you can keep the powered-up Rip refreshing.

[Blueredwolf]

Energy management? What tier is this?

[Thelxi]

Feral has a bit more depth than most other dps specs, but it is a very, VERY slow spec so yes even though you need to keep track of things it's so slow that it's really not that challenging. Just go for it and you will get used to it very fast.

[Blueredwolf]

Feral has a bit more depth than most other dps specs, but it is a very, VERY slow spec so yes even though you need to keep track of things it's so slow that it's really not that challenging. Just go for it and you will get used to it very fast.

It is not slow at all in T18.

[Cateaka]

It really isn't slow in T18. Especially with 4Pc/SoulCap/SoC.

[Deleted]

Its not complicated and it got dumbed down in WoD. Its pretty fucking easy unless you are terrible. If you are terrible maybe practice a little instead of whining.

[Blueredwolf]

Its not complicated and it got dumbed down in WoD. Its pretty fucking easy unless you are terrible. If you are terrible maybe practice a little instead of whining.

How on earth is feral "easy"? Even with the loss of some depth since MoP it's still a challenging spec that requires you to make some calculated decisions that when executed poorly can really punish you. And nobody is downright terrible for not mastering the spec on day one, that is a joke. You can't should assume to pick it up instantly and be perfect.

[Dreyen]

I have played feral in wrath and cata, and i get the gist of how it looks like in WoD, which seems to be the same plus bloodtalons...

It is a spec that takes awhile to get adjusted to, but eventually you get used to it. It's mostly just a waiting game about pooling energy, so you usually have time to contemplate what you're going to do in a few seconds. Fun spec, but it takes a lot of attention from the actual fight mechanics and the rewards nowadays are weak, the aoe weakness of feral is disproportionated, and the single target isn't even good enough to compensate...

I miss the days of feral wotlk, most complex class but not too bad, was rewarded into being the #1 dps across all tiers... was good to be top 2 dps every fight, i still have wet dreams of berserk + tiger's fury swipe spam hnggg. I feel the shorter duration on rip/savage roar was more interesting than what bloodtalon sounds like however.

[Taen]

Feral is tough, but don't worry. There's a nice easy-to-follow flowchart that explains everything.

[Ausr]

I'd rather battle the first boss of HFC all day than do a boss battle as Feral. I really would, honestly.

[ro9ue]

Honestly, if you're just playing casually I'd recommend getting Glyph of Savagery. It makes the rotation much, much easier.

[Deleted]

It becomes really easy if you use proper Weak Aura. I created my own custom WA that shows current energy, CP, gcd in the middle of my screen. On top of that it shows me the actual bleed timer on my target, changing colors to green if its on pandemic time. Same line the actual buffs like tf, sr and trinket proccs. on top of each bleed there is a numerical value that shows the current bleed ratio. i use shadow unit frames that helps me track bleeds on bosses. bartender and macros with mod keys reduced my skillbar to a 3x3 bar giving me enough room for the whole tracking. with that you can easily play you feral. thats how feral works, thats the part that differentiates us from gcd based melees.

[Deleted]

Honestly, if you're just playing casually I'd recommend getting Glyph of Savagery. It makes the rotation much, much easier.

I personally would not gimp the DPS of a spec that is already only middle of the pack at best even further

[Deleted]

How on earth is feral "easy"? Even with the loss of some depth since MoP it's still a challenging spec that requires you to make some calculated decisions that when executed poorly can really punish you. And nobody is downright terrible for not mastering the spec on day one, that is a joke. You can't should assume to pick it up instantly and be perfect.

No snappshotting (except bt and tf) and generous dot/roar refresh window made spec easy.

It's literally "just do this" rotation. I dont play many other specs but compared to for example spriest rotation that i can re-read 5 times and still dont get or retri paladin piano smashing until fingers bleed or even staring at moonkin eclipse bar and trying to get casts off at right time because if you move at peak you lose dps, feral is pretty fucking easy.

Agree that is a mess to play if you dont track everything in easy to see places with addons. First thing i did when boosted feral was to set up weak auras and cp tracker, otherwise its a headache.

[Will]

I do pretty good DPS on my feral - I may not be the best, but nor is my gear optimal - but whenever my gear's near-optimal, I often end up in the 95-99th percentiles on a lot of fights. And how do I cope with the complexity of feral?

The answer's simple: I'm a scrub. I have SO many addons to help me out that I hardly have to do much thinking on my own part. I don't use weakauras; I use Raven, because it's far, faaaaaar more customisable. To give you an idea how I've set my feral assistance addons up:

- Claw, a next ability suggestor addon. .lua tweaked to have 'next ability' suggestions. Unlike most ability suggestion addons, I've tweaked claw to the point where it very rarely suggests an action that would result in a noticeable DPS loss. It does, on occasion, suggest FB when I should do Rip, but common sense always prevails. At the end of the day, it's a suggestion addon and should be used as a recommendation. (I had to .lua tweak it as the author abandoned the project.)

- Raven has been configured to such an extent that it tells me - with almost full accuracy - the optimal time to use Tiger's Fury. A little icon lights up showing when to use it. I've configured the icon so that it won't show up if using it would result in energy capping, unless I'm under the effect of a Seed of Creation (longer duration) Berserk, in which case it's configured to show up on cooldown regardless of energy level, barring the final couple of seconds remaining on Berserk, where it switches back to standard functionality. Obviously common sense still prevails and you have to manually decide when to use TF, but this icon makes it a lot easier to manage.

- Raven has been configured to suggest and remind potion usage. After popping Berserk/Incarn a reminder will appear asking if I want to use a potion or not. If Berserk/Incarn are unavailable and the boss is rapidly approaching death, or Hero is used, it will also suggest using a potion.

- I have icons to watch my trinket procs; in particular Soul Capacitor, as it sometimes needs to be cancelled prematurely to avoid losing DPS, such as when the target goes immune. I have a macro to cancel it hotkeyed on my action bar.

- As usual, icons to track all the timers. A gong is sounded and the icons change colour when they reach the pandemic threshold.

- It's important to track combo points and energy towards the middle of your screen. Make them large and obvious! Don't rely on glancing to the outer edges of the screen for combo points or energy. I can't recommend IceHud enough for this, yet so few people use it - it really confuses me why people don't want a fighter-pilot style data right in the middle of the screen, yet at the same time unobtrusive.

- I've configured Raven so the Rip DoT tracking timer is automatically replaced with an Icon of Ferocious Bite when the target reaches the Blood in the Water (execute) range. The numerical timer for Rip still exists, but the picture of Rip changes to a picture of FB, this makes it extremely obvious for when I need to start using FB to refresh Rip. Before I did this change, I would sometimes forget that execute range had begun. It's the same timer, just the icon changes automatically when the boss hits 24% or less. If the boss goes back above 24%, the icon changes back to Rip.

- I have proc watcher trackers so I'm well aware when predatory swiftness goes off and how long bloodtalons will last. Healing touch is also incorporated into my next ability suggestion addon.

- The ability suggestion addon will delay suggesting FB until 50 energy is obtained. There are exceptions to this rule, times where you'll want to perform the ability regardless of energy level; the most obvious example being to refresh rip if it's about to fall off and the boss is below 25%.

- - - Updated - - -

No snappshotting (except bt and tf) and generous dot/roar refresh window made spec easy.

It's literally "just do this" rotation. I dont play many other specs but compared to for example spriest rotation that i can re-read 5 times and still dont get or retri paladin piano smashing until fingers bleed or even staring at moonkin eclipse bar and trying to get casts off at right time because if you move at peak you lose dps, feral is pretty fucking easy.

Agree that is a mess to play if you dont track everything in easy to see places with addons. First thing i did when boosted feral was to set up weak auras and cp tracker, otherwise its a headache.

Firstly, snapshotting on feral bleeds: - Not just on BT or TF. Incarn Rake and SR too.

Secondly, I think 'just do this' doesn't really do feral justice. On paper, you're correct, but in principle there's a lot 'to do'. Yes, moving at peak is a DPS loss as moonkin, but for the most part, once you get the hang of movement as a caster, your core 'rotation' is a lot simpler. The punishment as melee for failing to anticipate a mechanic that forces you to move out of melee range can be far more punishing if you don't prepare; fleeing from melee range while energy capped or without suitably refreshing your bleeds prior to your absence is going to bite you back.

" I dont play many other specs" Pretty much sums it up, buddy. If you think ret is more confusing then feral, it's simply because you've only read it on paper. I bet if you actually played it for a few hours you'd instantly decide it's far easier than feral.

Feral is all about minute decisions that make a big difference, such as:
"Incarn is ready in 20 seconds and SR is about to fall off. I'll do a 1 combo point SR to fill in the gap until Incarn is up, instead of a 5 CP SR." or "Rip is close to expiring and i'm low on energy, but I'm going to do a ferocious bite anyway and do rip next cycle because TF is a few seconds away from being ready, and it'll provide me enough energy to get away with doing this."