No, Israel is not an apartheid state

[cric]

Zionism very much comes from a religious background it has it roots there, don't even know why you would want to argue that. The amount of how much you believe in your religion regarding that matter is irrelevant. You are free to try to disconnect it from Judaism to make it look more rational behavior from the Jews that moved to obtain land in Palestine but it will only make you look like a fool.

If it has nothing to do with your religion what so ever, why take land there? Why there? If it was just about forming a country somewhere surely there were easier places to migrate to, oh wait you didn't because of the religious background there.

The orthodox are hardly a voice of reason, they want Israel but they are also against fighting for it. They'll stick to burning olive trees and spitting and kicking Palestinians out.

For the rest Urok replied what i was going to say, us able to see it from a distance and international reporters show us enough. You can be a coward and play it all an anti-antisemitism or accept that your nation plays a big role in the whole mess and it's far from one sided and stop hiding behind the whole "we are just defending'

the roots of zionism go back thousands of years, ever since the babylonian invasion. modern-day zionism, as i said, is not a religious ideology not even on its roots no matter how hard you believe it is. and as i said, other parts were proposed for the jewish state too, but it just so happenes to be formed in palestine mainly due to the vacuum created by the fall of the ottoman empire.

ive never said we've always treated palestinians perfectly. however, the problems we now have have by and large been their fault.

[Anyael]

Why don't we have a Romanii state?

That's a good question. Is it related to the topic at hand though?

[Machismo]

i really regret making this thread.
anyway...



why? because it doesn't follow your narrative?
of course an anti-israeli website will have anti-israeli content on it. all these things denied here are well-reported, both by israeli and international sources, and even hamas themselves. if you wan't to know how things actually are, you can start your research here.
seriously, thse people trying to defend a terrosit organization amaze me...


are these really the kind of people you want to support?:








now, people fail to look at the conflict from an israeli perspective, due to the fact that they live comfortably in safe conditions in their home countries.

morality tends to have a lower priority when survival is threatened, as noted by abraham maslow and maslow's hierarchy of needs. if hamas would be constantly sending missiles to your country, conducting suicide bombings, or building underground tunnels beneath it in order to attack civilan towns, i bet your view would change as well. sadly, you cannot negotiate with terrorists. or should we try to negotiate peace with the islamic state too?

and israel can't simply withdraw from the west bank without any peace deals. just look at what happened when we withdrew from gaza: hamas came into power. withdrawing would just give the extrmists more ground. missile attacks from the west bank would be far more deadly for israel, and if hamas actually succeeded in some massacre here, as has already almost happened, israel would just go totally apeshit, and the results would be much more terrible for the palestinians than they are now.
the palestinians need to get their shit together and sort out their own problems before any meaningful peace can be achieved. ever since the very beginning, they have lacked determination, rather focused on terrorism, violence, and carrying out attacks against israel, than actually building their nation and productively trying to get their independence and negotiate peace. that's why they are dirt poor while we are well-off, and why they still don't have their independent country.

the problem is, that they might not even want peace, because once an independent palestinian state is established, it would be very poor, not able to provide basic necessities for it's citizens, and would most likely just end in the same state as many of the neighboring arab countries. also, at this point, they would no longer be able to cry to the international community about how opressed they are, losing perhaps their only valuable resource.

the vast majority of israelis don't want war, and we don't want civilians or children dying. but due to the conditions, this is just how it turns out, and is certainly not the first (or last) time this happens. if we really wanted ethnic cleansing/take over palestine or whatever, we could do it in one day.

I would hope that you realize that it is entirely possible to not support terrorism, and also not support the apartheid in Israel. Is the Israeli government oppression Palestinians? Absolutely. Are they doing it based on ethnicity? Yes. Then it is apartheid (or the non-South-African equivalent). Until your country's government treats them fairly, or allows them to govern themselves in a sovereign nation, you will never have the moral high ground. Your country is slowly becoming as radicalized as the Arab countries you bemoan. It's also turning more like Nazi Germany every year. How's that for irony?

- - - Updated - - -

unnecessary deaths are unfortunately the reality of wars. i have never claimed the idf is perfect, but the difference is that we don' actively use killing civilians as our strategy. this incident was merely an accident.

So Israel did not target and kill the family members of alleged assassins on the anniversary of them killing someone?

Israel did not assassinate a scientist accross sovereign borders?

Israel didn't wipe out an entire neighborhood, leaving it completely flattened?

- - - Updated - - -

Western lefties see the world as the "The Rest and The West", brown skin vs light skin, weak vs strong. Add in capitalistic success and Isreal is everything they hate in the world.

Well that... or the systematic oppression of an indigenous people.

- - - Updated - - -

the roots of zionism go back thousands of years, ever since the babylonian invasion. modern-day zionism, as i said, is not a religious ideology not even on its roots no matter how hard you believe it is. and as i said, other parts were proposed for the jewish state too, but it just so happenes to be formed in palestine mainly due to the vacuum created by the fall of the ottoman empire.

ive never said we've always treated palestinians perfectly. however, the problems we now have have by and large been their fault.

The South African government blamed black people for their justification in opppressing them. How is it the Palestinian's fault that Israel is oppressing them?

Let me guess... Hamas.

[Deleted]

actually, there were hamas buildings nearby. so yes, it was very much only a mistake. these things have always happened on wars, and on a far larger scale too. it doesn't make them right, but why the need to gang up on israel specifically?

just try to think a bit about what youre saying. why would israel want to kill some random palestinian kids? this serves no purpose to us, and always when something like this happens it's a bad thing for israel and how it's role is percieved. why would israel want to alienate itself from the international community? the idf therefore always tries to avoid unnecessary casualties by informing the reisdents that their area will be bombed beforehand.

Noone is saying Israel targets children, what we're saying, what the UN says (UN accuses Israel and Hamas of possible war crimes during 2014 Gaza conflict), is that the IDF is way too reckless and inconsiderate. I find especially disgusting what one of Israel's ministers said following the killing of Mohammed Deif's family, which I think illustrates how Israel thinks.

So, the IDF thinks Deif, a top Hamas militant and a 'legitimate target', is at his home and bombs the house, killing his family. Eventually it is understood that he was not home, and is alive and well, with the only result of the bombing being civillian deahts (as with so many previous and later bombings). And Israel's science minister and former security service chief, Yaakov Perry, said that he was "convinced that if there was intelligence that [Deif] was not inside the home, then we would not have bombed it". It hits you like a brick... so, Israel would not have bombed the house if the IDF knew Deif was not home, and not because it knew that there are actually fucking civillians in it... like, fuck me. (BBC article on the story)

Remorseless, unapologetic and brazen, that's how I see Israel since last year.

And don't whatabout me, please; eveyone clearly understands that Hamas uses human shields, that Palestinians have dismissed proposed two-state formulas and all the rest - that's no excuse for massacres, especially for a 'secular' and 'liberal' first-world country.

[Acidbaron]

Palestine is the historic home of the Jews. I think it was the Emperor Hadrian who got tired of Jewish revolts and order the Jews be wiped from the Earth, their cities torn down, etc. This was what? 300AD?

Europe's colonial period in the early 1900's approved the Jewish colonization of Palestine, by WWII there were 300k + Jews in Palestine.

Almost every country in the world voted "yes" to make Israel a country, if you're posting on MMO-C likely your country did too. Even the Soviets voted yes. I think some of that had to do with Holocaust guilt.

It had to do with guilt, also not every country in the world voted yes. The big problem is that the surrounding nations were invited to the table but i believe to keep their seat the initial premise was to accept Israel came to be. Considering if you know how Israel came to be with first the illegal migration and then the bombings, you kinda don't want that to be your future legitimate neighbor.

What my country did at that time however does not reflect me as even i question the people i voted in power a year ago, let alone those who came in power before i was born.

[cric]

@ people with the classical "paletinians are like native americans!": most of them actually migrated from neighboring areas due to the economic advatages provided by the newly settled jews, who made the land flourish for the first time. in fact, between ww1 and ww2, more arabs migrated to the area than jews. most palestinians are immigrants just as most israelis are.

@ people with their un human rights resolutions: the un human rights council is mostly a joke nowadays when it comes to the israeli-palestinian conflict. i remember when in 2010-2011 israel received ~80-90% of all those resolutions, while there are countries like china, zimbabwe, north korea, saudi arabia.... the math does not seem to add up. where was the un human rights council during the operations conducted by countries like the us and uk in afghanistan and iraq, which caused much more casualties than those in gaza? even un officials have admitted the bias against israel.

@ people claiming israel was set on stone during the negotiations:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
btw, terrorism was not one-sided.

@ the rest.... ive already made my case against this, not getting into this circle-jerk again.

[Machismo]

@ people with the classical "paletinians are like native americans!": most of them actually migrated from neighboring areas due to the economic advatages provided by the newly settled jews, who made the land flourish for the first time. in fact, between ww1 and ww2, more arabs migrated to the area than jews. most palestinians are immigrants just as most israelis are.

@ people with their un human rights resolutions: the un human rights council is mostly a joke nowadays when it comes to the israeli-palestinian conflict. i remember when in 2010-2011 israel received ~80-90% of all those resolutions, while there are countries like china, zimbabwe, north korea, saudi arabia.... the math does not seem to add up. where was the un human rights council during the operations conducted by countries like the us and uk in afghanistan and iraq, which caused much more casualties than those in gaza? even un officials have admitted the bias against israel.

@ people claiming israel was set on stone during the negotiations:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Paper_of_1939
btw, terrorism was not one-sided.

@ the rest.... ive already made my case against this, not getting into this circle-jerk again.

You have made your case, and it's completely weak. Your title is basically wrong. The a=only argument that you would have that Israel is not participating in apartheid, is that apartheid has historically only referenced the systematic oppression of people in a speicific country. However, their actions are quite similar to those of South Africa during their little jaunt into apartheid.

[Notter]

As an Israeli, this thread made me wish there was an apartheid in in Israel.

I mean, we're gonna get all the hate anyway, right?
just look at all the idiots replying in this thread saying there's an apartheid in a country they've never been at. it's a fucking joke.

So you know what? we might as well start an apartheid, cause it's not gonna matter, but at least we'll have less Arabs stabbing us everyday and stealing.

I will personally go to the nice Arab guy (his name was Mustafa if i remeber correct) that i ordered a Tuna sandwich from in the coffee shop in a mall the center of Tel-Aviv, and spit in his face and tell him to get out of MY country.
Cause i mean.. you probably think that's how we act anyway, right?

[Machismo]

As an Israeli, this thread made me wish there was an apartheid in in Israel.

I mean, we're gonna get all the hate anyway, right?
just look at all the idiots replying in this thread saying there's an apartheid in a country they've never been at. it's a fucking joke.

So you know what? we might as well start an apartheid, cause it's not gonna matter, but at least we'll have less Arabs stabbing us everyday and stealing.

I will personally go to the nice Arab guy (his name was Mustafa if i remeber correct) that i ordered a Tuna sandwich from in the coffee shop in a mall the center of Tel-Aviv, and spit in his face and tell him to get out of MY country.
Cause i mean.. you probably think that's how we act anyway, right?

What you are describing is not apartheid. Apartheid is the systematic oppression of a group of people based on race or ethnicity. It's not about kicking them out, it's about pushing them down. Spitting in some guys face would just make you an asshole. Guess what, most white South Africans didn't think what they were doing was wrong, either. Oppression is rarely a problem for the ones doing the oppressing.

[Notter]

cool.
you're still an idiot for thinking that's going on in israel.

[Machismo]

cool.
you're still an idiot for thinking that's going on in israel.

It is going on, you just don't want to seem to believe it. The last time I checked, people in the Gaza Strip ad West Bank are not free to live their lives like others are. I also see their land being taken by the government, in deferment to Israeli settlers.

Now, if they were a sovereign nation, it would not be apartheid, it would merely be an act of war.

[Rooflesstoofless]

I look at it this way:
Israel isn't going to change a damn thing till the all you can eat buffet of military hardware and forgiven loans from the US is stopped. Arguing against an indoctrinated Israeli pushing official propaganda is pointless. The people pushing this propaganda are the same kind of nationalist idiots we have here in US that try to tell me I should thank a vet for protecting mah freedoms(!) against a bunch brown people that had nothing to do with 9/11 and that Trump would be a great president.

The politicians here love that pro-Israeli lobby money and everyone is afraid of having to fend off accusations of being antisemitic (even tho Palestinians are Semitic people as well herp-a-derp). The US is the last friend with any real power that Israel has and they know they are sufficiently fucked if and when we wean them off our tit. I really do hope Israel figures out a peaceful solution to get along with their neighbors but considering their PM won his election based on racism and fear mongering I think Israel will drown in their own bullshit before any real progress is made.

[Deleted]

cool.
you're still an idiot for thinking that's going on in israel.

Didnt you read my excerpts regarding Israeli position visa-vis, a Palestinian state?
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post35925402
Read it again.

[RobertMugabe]

As an Israeli, this thread made me wish there was an apartheid in in Israel.

I mean, we're gonna get all the hate anyway, right?
just look at all the idiots replying in this thread saying there's an apartheid in a country they've never been at. it's a fucking joke.

So you know what? we might as well start an apartheid, cause it's not gonna matter, but at least we'll have less Arabs stabbing us everyday and stealing.

I will personally go to the nice Arab guy (his name was Mustafa if i remeber correct) that i ordered a Tuna sandwich from in the coffee shop in a mall the center of Tel-Aviv, and spit in his face and tell him to get out of MY country.
Cause i mean.. you probably think that's how we act anyway, right?

Israel is considered an apartheid by many, beacuse they opress arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, not in proper Israel.

I think most people here know, that living in Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Beersheba and West-Jerusalem is pretty normal, but it's definetly not in Gaza, East-Jerusalem and Hebron...

[Holas]

Israel is considered an apartheid by many, beacuse they opress arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, not in proper Israel.

I think most people here know, that living in Tel-Aviv, Haifa, Beersheba and West-Jerusalem is pretty normal, but it's definetly not in Gaza, East-Jerusalem and Hebron...

Could you explain what "opress" means?
In those areas palestinian leadership control the people. Yes, Isreal DO have control of borders, however its to try to minimize the weapons and missles entering those regions. Other goods are entering freely (even in last summer war gaza received 50 supply trucks daily).
Yes, they are not allowed to enter what you called "proper Israel", so? Israelies are not allowed to enter that piece of land. Also Iranians are not allowed to enter Israel and vice versa. Do you think that because of Israel they are poor? well I guess the media doesn't show you the villa's and mercedeces they are driving. Just recently plo leader built a castle for his home with 13M$. (from EU money that supposed to reach the people). Arafat had 2 billion $, guess from where.

But here is the most surprising thing: a lot of palestinians DOESNT WANT a state (at least the smart ones). You know why? because they know exactly how their lives would look in the 23-24th arab state. Its not going to get better for them, just worse (especially with ISIS on borders. The whole purpose of the invented "palestinian" people is to destroy Israel nothing more.

You might claim that we should all feel sorry for the arabs in west bank and gaza. But the truth to be told is that under israeli occupation their life expectancy is highest among arab countries (even past few european countries), They are the most educated among arabs and overall their lives are far from bad in respect with other arab countries, especially those without oil. I personally hope we will give them those areas so they can see how their lives will look but I already know what will happen:
They will just gather weapons and attack Israel. Yes, at first the world will say Israel in the right but soon after it will be the same shit again (see gaza from where we left in 2005). Just because europeans can't handle the truth that the arabs don't want a country for themselves - they just don't want Israel to have one.

[cric]

the people caliming israelis are all brainwashed amuse me.

what they don't know is that most israeli media is very much left-wing and palestinian symphatizers. debating about politics is also perhaps one of our favorite hobbies, and all kinds of opinions are present in these debates.

we criticize ourselves just as much as the rest of the world does, maybe even more.

[Anyael]

What you are describing is not apartheid. Apartheid is the systematic oppression of a group of people based on race or ethnicity. It's not about kicking them out, it's about pushing them down. Spitting in some guys face would just make you an asshole. Guess what, most white South Africans didn't think what they were doing was wrong, either. Oppression is rarely a problem for the ones doing the oppressing.

White South Africa has really thrived under continuous black rule. Total diversity achieved by getting rid of apartheid.

Oh wait, South Africa has the highest murder rate in the world and all of the whites are fleeing to safer nations.

How could I forget.

edit: Forgot to mention! If you have money in South Africa, you live in a gated, segregated community so you and your family aren't murdered! What a future to look forward to!

[Mayhem]

White South Africa has really thrived under continuous black rule. Total diversity achieved by getting rid of apartheid.

Oh wait, South Africa has the highest murder rate in the world and all of the whites are fleeing to safer nations.

How could I forget.

edit: Forgot to mention! If you have money in South Africa, you live in a gated, segregated community so you and your family aren't murdered! What a future to look forward to!

You really want to go that route? If so, what´s your conclusion?

[PC2]

You really want to go that route? If so, what´s your conclusion?

Perhaps that Western civ is headed toward more gated communities correlated with level of racial diversity.

[Anyael]

You really want to go that route? If so, what´s your conclusion?

I decidedly do not want to go down that route.

Israel -- not the Gaza Strip or the West Bank -- is far from apartheid. The West Bank and the Gaza Strip (and the Golan Heights iirc) are occupied -- and under this occupation, the Palestinians in the territory have been much better off than the ones outside of it unless they were trying to kill us. Given that the Strip was taken over by a fascist genocidal sect of Islam and that they have power in the West Bank, it would be suicidal to withdraw from the West Bank for the sake of morality -- even then though, is it really moral to put the people of the West Bank through the inevitable conflict between Fatah, Hamas, and outside backers for symbolic independence?