Is taking advantage of someone drunk Rape?

[Slant]

It's not really aimed at you, I'm just wondering your general opinion and what you think it should be.

The point at which I'm uncomfortable with her being drunk is reached a lot sooner than her not being able to articulate herself. A lot sooner, especially if she's not my gf. I'd bang my gf if she was way beyond drunk as long as she was conscious (fairly certain I'm spelling that wrong) to enjoy the stuff I do to her. :P But that's like a general consent thingy and doesn't really matter in this context.

[Slant]

What the heck are you on about?
I haven't made any claim on relevancy. Just that the analogy to drunk driving is all sorts of absurd.
I'm not making the comparison: you are.

It's not absurd at all if you're talking about the mental capacity to make decisions. Drunk driving is actually the best comparison in my country, since nothing else actually makes half as many distinctions basing on the varying degrees of "drunkenness" or rather blood alcohol level.

[nextormento]

It's not absurd at all if you're talking about the mental capacity to make decisions. Drunk driving is actually the best comparison in my country, since nothing else actually makes half as many distinctions basing on the varying degrees of "drunkenness" or rather blood alcohol level.

I'm addressing why drunk driving is penalized, but drunk sex isn't: because the risks involved are completely different.
If you are drunk you're bound to make bad choices. Some are worse than others. Handling heavy machinery, like a car, involves more severe risks than intercourse.

[OneSent]

Is allowing yourself to get that drunk around a group of people who may take advantage of you an irresponsible choice?

Yes.

If I stick my hand into a lion's change and get bit, is it the lion's fault? Just saying.

There are predators out there, and the last thing you want to do is give them a reason to do what they do best. You can't change their nature, but you can prevent yourself from being caught in situations where you become their prey.

[Sunseeker]

Legally I dont think so, morally its close.

Yes, it is, because a drunk person is considered legally unable to consent.

[ciggy]

I would have asked you if I showed signs of not wanting it anymore (through my body language). I may not be able to articulate it through speech but I pretty sure I could show you that I didn't want it anymore by other means. If you picked up on the cues and chose to ignore it, I'd definitely be upset. If I honestly didn't show you anything, than it's not your fault.

I respect the SHIT out of this opinion, I wish more were like you. It's so damn easy to tell if a woman is down for some no strings sex, the vocal ques are just part of the overall puzzle.

I feel like so often consent is used when a woman has regrets, and that's just wrong. I'm so fucking lucky to not be into that scene anymore, it is a war zone today.

[Underverse]

Yes, it is, because a drunk person is considered legally unable to consent.

By that logic, if you get drunk and then go nextdoor and shoot your neighbor, it's just manslaughter.

People should be responsible for the decisions they make, whether or not they are drunk. By drinking, they acknowledge the possibility of making poor decisions. But being drunk does not absolve them of their outcomes.

[infinitemeridian]

The whole idea that sex while drunk is rape is not only disrespectful to people who have actually been raped, but also quite sexist, by saying that a few drinks make women these weak-willed creatures who cannot make decisions and need a man to make them for her.

Let's be real here, these laws target men unfairly, as highlighted by other cases in which both parties were drunk, but the man was a rapist "because".

- - - Updated - - -

I'm addressing why drunk driving is penalized, but drunk sex isn't: because the risks involved are completely different.
If you are drunk you're bound to make bad choices. Some are worse than others. Handling heavy machinery, like a car, involves more severe risks than intercourse.

What about STD's? Pregnancy? Those are bad choices and have pretty severe consequences on one's life. The only reason sex gets the treatment it does when people are drunk is because sex is still considered immoral and evil. This is why liberals and feminists are actually pretty conservative when you think about it and not all that "progressive".

[Ham on Rye]

If you're drunk and commit theft, murder, etc. you're responsible for your actions and will be arrested and convicted. Therefore, the opposite applies. If your state of mind while drunk is solid enough to be convicted of a crime, it's solid enough to say no to sex.

[melodramocracy]

Yes, it is, because a drunk person is considered legally unable to consent.

Citation needed.

[nextormento]

What about STD's? Pregnancy? Those are bad choices and have pretty severe consequences on one's life.

What about them?
I unambiguously said that there are consequences.
But I also said how the risks involve, or not, 3rd parties.
The reason why the drunk sex vs drunk driving comparison is absurd lies on who is drinking, who suffers the consequences, and what kind of risks there are. People driving while drunk are putting in danger other people. People having sex while drunk are taking decisions over their own lives; not others.
We penalize people who drive drunk. We don't penalize people who have sex while drunk: because it's absurd.

[Deleted]

1) Got drunk ... helped home by a 'friend' you wouldn't normally sleep with because you're not attracted to him.
OR
2) Got drunk ... helped home by that stud from down the road you've fancied for ages.

You wake in the morning and look over to your left ...

your reaction is either 'fuck what did i do'
OR
your reaction is 'fuck yeah'

in either instance you don't actually remember giving verbal consent .... but this only bothers you in one of the scenarios.

P.S. This is a really hard topic and choosing the right words to explain what you're trying to say is bloody hard.

[Deleted]

Well, if you kill someone here while drunk, it's also totally your fault and then we're not just talking about driving under the influence. Then we're talking about killing people, which is a whole different business. But you're not really looking into the state of being drunk, you're looking at someone killing someone else. Being drunk usually can reduce the sentence depending on your state of drunkenness.

So, all this is an exercise to make you guys think about how the law deals with the different states of minds. The law absolutely sees it as a given fact that mental state can and does hinder your ability to make sane decisions. Why, if the law makes that distinction, should it be different for a drunk person not being able to see the consequences of their consent, thus not being able to give it?

Or by your logic, if you agree that drunk driving is a bad idea because the person driving cannot make proper decisions, how come you think persons drunk can make proper decisions regarding sex? :P

Edit: Oh yes, I forgot. There's an entire science behind blood tests regarding alcohol. They can take your blood and tell you exactly how drunk you've been. Even 12 hours later or more.

You're not really making a strong point, the point is is that even if you are drunk you should show restraint and not get in the car. And if you can't you shouldn't drink period. It's up to the individual drinking to make sure he doesn't do something stupid not the people around him.

And as far as your blood tests go I'm sure it doesn't work very well if it can be tempered with by drinking after the fact or just getting the time wrong.

As far as the "difference" between driving drunk and having sex while drunk the difference is is that you're not putting anyone else at risk that's not invovled since the person you're having sex with (unless you're committing rape) is also consenting and thus willingly participating. The people you hit with your car are not.

[hulkgor]

I'd say it depends.

If the person is completely out of it, yes, it definitely is rape.

If the person is just lightly tipsy but still in control of her faculties, then no.

The problem lies in evaluating each case individually... and not possible doing so appropriately the day(s) after, since you will not know the condition the person was in.

[bewbew]

You can't give consent when intoxicated.

See, that's bullshit.

As I've recently realized doing my own thinking and my own studying, checking my philosophy and just good reasoning, this argument can be reduced to an absurd situation fairly easily.

According to you, intoxicated people can't consent because their judgements are impaired. However, alcohol and outside substances are not the only things that make your judgement, your reasoning impaired. Strong emotions also flood your body with substances that alter your attitudes and make your rational "you" subside to the storm of your feelings. That's why people are advised against taking decisions when they feel sad, depressed, angry, or other extreme emotions. Impaired reasoning.

The fact that they're substances already inside your body doesn't make them, at all, more 'benevolent" to your rational mind.

Guess what is also a state of euphoria, impaired reasoning?

Extreme sexual lust. Also, pleasure.

So if impaired reason from your rational mind is enough to make you unable to give consent, people during sex are unable to give consent, as their rational minds are clearly impaired, and thus, their judgements won't be one from a rational stand-point. That's even if you're not drunk.

Or in other words, claiming it's about you being able to make 'logical, rational decisions' is bullshit. Sex is not a logical, rational decision. It's desire. It's lust.

People have to seriously stop trying to make sex about this cold, analytical scenario about consent.

[Eon Drache]

Yes. However if both a man and woman are drunk it is always the mans fault. Never the woman's fault.

[Deleted]

Im not referring to passed out drunk or incoherent drunk. I'm referring to drunk enough to loose all inhibitions all self restraint drunk. the level of drunkenness you will do things you wouldn't do sober
Is it rape to take advantage of someone's loss of all inhibitions and self restraint that they wouldn't have had sex if they was sober
Is that Rape?

someone who has lost all inhibitions and all self restraint cant give meaningful consent, so yeah under those conditions its pretty much the same as someone whos passed out of drugged up etc. (heck i don't even know how people manage to stay conscious to get to a level of drunkenness where they will agree to just about anything)

The point at which you would do things that you wouldn't do when sober, ie lose some inhibitions and self control, comes much much much sooner then that and in general people still won't do dangerous things/things they really don't want at that point, even when seriously drunk, disgust and fear are very powerful emotions. So i'd say no it's not rape, i'd say this is why adults tell you not to drink so much, but alas everybody has to learn life the hard way for themselves, people rarely take advice like that but often wish they had taken it later in life.

[Deleted]

If picking up drunk people is rape then we've been raping each other willy nilly every weekend since alcohol was invented.

[Tradewind]

Yes. However if both a man and woman are drunk it is always the mans fault. Never the woman's fault.

Not sure if poe's law or just the worst thing ever said.

[Narveid]

Seriously, how much are we going to infantilize people's decisions and choices? Would you hold them responsible if they broke into a store while drunk? What about attacking someone? Yes? That is what I thought.

For anything else they are legally responsible for their actions. But having sex is suddenly made into this oh so holy thing you cannot consent to while you are drunk, because (spaghetti) God forbid you should have to deal with the responsibility of having made a bad choice of sleeping with someone. In my opinion you shouldn't use the term rape that lightly for people making terrible choices in life, but rather for the people who are actually raped and have a traumatic experience. Being drunk, giggling and having shitty sex is not rape.