BM vs MM

[Privs]

So I was looking at icy-veins recently and noticed something that seemed a bit off to me. It claims that the BM is the highest single target and aoe spec. i agree that it is the best aoe spec, but is it really better at single target than MM?

[Albimoo]

No

/10characters

[Goundin]

BMs are better burst dps and in my opinion as a BM I feel we are good at single target. I've been a BM since BC and it's awesome.

[Daetur]

Even if it is, it's sort of moot. The reason that people recommend MM for HFC progression over BM is not because of a higher theoretical damage ceiling, but because the strengths of MM are well suited to nearly every fight in HFC- it excels at the portions of the fights that are the hardest, or are the keys to completing the encounter, such as quickly bursting down newly spawned adds.

[geist0r]

BMs are better burst dps and in my opinion as a BM I feel we are good at single target. I've been a BM since BC and it's awesome.

BM having good burst is an obsolete thought of people stuck in the past. It has practically no burst compared to MM or other classes, unless your guild is nice enough to save a trashmob just for you to enter a bossfight with 5x frenzy. Its damage output is also not competitive or even viable for a progression setting such as mythic, except for Xhul and perhaps Iskar. BMs burst was getting carried by 4pc T17, just like now MM is getting carried by 4pc T18.

I too like BM much more than MM, but the hard thruth is it doesn't hold a candle to MM right now.

[Deleted]

do not listen to icy-veins, simple as that

[Hunterforlife]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8

[Youn]

Oddly, looking at the individual bosses vs overall. It shows a very different story of BM vs MM vs SV.

[Trictagon]

In this context, that chart is basically useless. The few people who actually play bm in mythic tend to do so on iskar (where the aoe damage is almost entirely useless, no one cares about illusionary outcasts who just melee tanks, plus I don't think you can kill command the boss if you do p3 air phase burn, but not sure on that), and xhul'horac, where it is actually decent if your group isn't lacking on voidfiend damage (most progression guilds who haven't yet killed Xhul will be lacking voidfiend damage at this point, so mm will still be better in that aspect).

There are also some extreme cases of super short fight lengths like some mythic fel lord kills that cause bm's stampede to actually be good on single target, probably something like (random guess) 0.01% of players are in a guild who can do this. 99%+ of players will see better performance as mm, and the other 1% or less will see higher bm performance because of some kind of gimmick or less relevant damage on other targets.

If you look at the chart for marksman hunters in brf before the aimed shot buff, you will see the same phenomenon. Marksman had higher "average dps" overall than bm, but it was only truly better on iron maidens. The only mythic raiders who have the luxury of fucking around with a suboptimal spec are people who are already 90th+ percentile players and are farming the instance, or people who are just plain ignorant and are in guilds that may only ever kill a few early mythic bosses. The former is probably more common than the latter.

Look at that same warcraftlogs chart on heroic or normal difficulty and bm will drop all the way to the bottom, because those difficulties are much more accessible and allow worse players to play suboptimal specs, rather than something like the top 1% of players who can successfully kill late mythic bosses as bm and get away with it.

Usually when a huge majority of players gravitate towards one spec there's a very good reason behind it, even if the majority of players are just following what other "top" players are doing. The chances of a low-representation spec suddenly shooting to the top with no balance changes is incredibly low.

[Deleted]

A guy asking "icy veins says this" actually sparked an argument, ayylmao

[madokbro]

Can a BM Hunter with around 690 ilvl, shitty trinkets(one baleful mastery, one coren direbrew) and no set bonuses can at least pull their weight in hfc normal with a perfectly orchestrated rotation? I really, really don't want to switch to MM, and I don't mind being the middle of the pack.

[Geddyn]

Can a BM Hunter with around 690 ilvl, shitty trinkets(one baleful mastery, one coren direbrew) and no set bonuses can at least pull their weight in hfc normal with a perfectly orchestrated rotation? I really, really don't want to switch to MM, and I don't mind being the middle of the pack.

You'll be way behind other DPS who actually have decent trinkets and set bonuses and BM just really isn't that good on some of the boss fights (Kilrogg and Gorefiend, for example).

The four piece set bonus is an absolute massive DPS increase for Marksmanship Hunters, though, so you're really just holding your raid team back if you play either of the other two specs once you have four pieces of the tier armor.

[Daetur]

Can a BM Hunter with around 690 ilvl, shitty trinkets(one baleful mastery, one coren direbrew) and no set bonuses can at least pull their weight in hfc normal with a perfectly orchestrated rotation? I really, really don't want to switch to MM, and I don't mind being the middle of the pack.

What do you define as pulling your weight? If you're doing Normal mode, doing mechanics correctly, and are performing your rotation correctly, BM/MM isn't going to make or break you. MM will be better, yes, but those trinkets and no set bonuses are going to hurt you compared to DPS who do have those no matter what spec you play.

Realistically, spec choice only really matters for progression and any content where DPS requirements, rather than mechanical failures, are causing wipes. If you don't want to play MM, you can make any spec work, especially on Normal mode.

[Atrianna]

What do you define as pulling your weight? If you're doing Normal mode, doing mechanics correctly, and are performing your rotation correctly, BM/MM isn't going to make or break you. MM will be better, yes, but those trinkets and no set bonuses are going to hurt you compared to DPS who do have those no matter what spec you play.

Realistically, spec choice only really matters for progression and any content where DPS requirements, rather than mechanical failures, are causing wipes. If you don't want to play MM, you can make any spec work, especially on Normal mode.

I agree, I think any spec can pull their weight on any of the fights in normal. The reality is going to come down to whether or not the entire group dps is efficient. Your comp for the raid group plays a huge role in whether or not you are going to be able to play BM versus MM. If you have a few hunters, one BM might be fine. Don't get me wrong, I am a strong advocate for MM, specially on the fights such as Kilrogg and Gorefiend.

That said, I think the Iskar plea is a bit off from earlier. There is so much cleave with other classes and specs these days, that you would still benefit from having the strong single target burst on priority adds. Again though, it all depends on your group. I still am rooted in MM being the better spec for the way the fights are designed. Ok, ok. Assault might be a good BM fight. lol

[chooi]

Ok, ok. Assault might be a good BM fight. lol

I know you weren't serious but just to make clear:
It's not. Adds die way too fast and pet is running across the room constantly without dealing any damage. Also, even if you are still progressing on Assault (lol) MM is clearly the better choice to kill off priority adds (Machines, Hulks, Caster) quickly.

The only fight in HFC where BM might have a place is Xhul'horac. That's it. MM is superiour to BM in so many ways, especially with Legendary Ring.

[Gaarashatan]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/8

i hate to be that guy, but srsly. 75th percentile?, aint noone paying attention to those moobs, i can do shitty on a fight and still hit 99th. not to mention the outstanding number of mm to bm. the only people playing bm are mostly legit players doing it for fun and even then. the chart literally means nothing

- - - Updated - - -

What do you define as pulling your weight? If you're doing Normal mode, doing mechanics correctly, and are performing your rotation correctly, BM/MM isn't going to make or break you. MM will be better, yes, but those trinkets and no set bonuses are going to hurt you compared to DPS who do have those no matter what spec you play.

Realistically, spec choice only really matters for progression and any content where DPS requirements, rather than mechanical failures, are causing wipes. If you don't want to play MM, you can make any spec work, especially on Normal mode.

except survival

- - - Updated - - -

I know you weren't serious but just to make clear:
It's not. Adds die way too fast and pet is running across the room constantly without dealing any damage. Also, even if you are still progressing on Assault (lol) MM is clearly the better choice to kill off priority adds (Machines, Hulks, Caster) quickly.

The only fight in HFC where BM might have a place is Xhul'horac. That's it. MM is superiour to BM in so many ways, especially with Legendary Ring.

or on mannoroth, grip the imps and tell your guild to not dps them

[chooi]

or on mannoroth, grip the imps and tell your guild to not dps them

I see no point in this unless you are lacking on Warriors/Locks that are better for AoE-bursting Imps by far...or you're cheesing for ranks But it's pretty much the same for Xhul. So we have 2/13 fights in HFC where BM might be on-par with MM under very specific conditions.

[Atrianna]

I know you weren't serious but just to make clear:
It's not. Adds die way too fast and pet is running across the room constantly without dealing any damage. Also, even if you are still progressing on Assault (lol) MM is clearly the better choice to kill off priority adds (Machines, Hulks, Caster) quickly.

The only fight in HFC where BM might have a place is Xhul'horac. That's it. MM is superiour to BM in so many ways, especially with Legendary Ring.

Yea, I know. I was BM until this tier as well. I'm not the best hunter in the world, but even I can see the difference 4 piece and spec change makes.

[Dwoggurd]

Currently, BM is fine for fights where you can cleave adds or need extreme movement.

In Hellfire Citadel BM is at least as good as MM on 3 fights:

1) Iskar
You claw those adds and they die.
The only BM disadvantage is the very last set if your guild uses the strategy where you finish the boss mid-air. But you still can use Kill Shot on him. After all, you have those useless melee in your raid for that last phase anyway.

2) Xhul
BM is actually better than MM here and you can also kite voids if your guild prefers kiting them.

3) Mannoroth
BM and MM are about same for this fight. If your guild needs more imp damage, go BM.
Depending on strat the movement can be intense, so it's hard to keep high mastery uptime as MM here.

However, if you have 10 warlocks and warriors in your raid, stay MM, they will steal all adds from you. Or if your raid has 740 average ilevel and all adds die instantly.

[Daetur]

Currently, BM is fine for fights where you can cleave adds or need extreme movement.

In Hellfire Citadel BM is at least as good as MM on 3 fights:

1) Iskar
You claw those adds and they die.
The only BM disadvantage is the very last set if your guild uses the strategy where you finish the boss mid-air. But you still can use Kill Shot on him. After all, you have those useless melee in your raid for that last phase anyway.

2) Xhul
BM is actually better than MM here and you can also kite voids if your guild prefers kiting them.

3) Mannoroth
BM and MM are about same for this fight. If your guild needs more imp damage, go BM.
Depending on strat the movement can be intense, so it's hard to keep high mastery uptime as MM here.

However, if you have 10 warlocks and warriors in your raid, stay MM, they will steal all adds from you. Or if your raid has 740 average ilevel and all adds die instantly.

I don't see how BM is actually effective for Iskar. The most important thing during the add phases is to single-target burst down the priority add as quickly as possible, not to cleave down the meaningless melee mobs with no other abilities. You can pad, sure, but it's not going to help you beat the fight.