Fury Legion Discussion

[Jastall]

I'd be fine with Arms having a better ST niche while Fury did a bit better on AoE. That's good spec design I think, so long as the difference is manageable. A 100k DPS difference is not what I'd call manageable, however. I'd be OK with Arms doing 5-10% more single-target when played optimally, but not the giant gulf that exists right now between the two specs.

I mean, I also don't believe Arms is going to escape a heavy nerfbat, but that doesn't help warriors much if Fury's ST goes untouched. We shouldn't be top of the pack, but being so behind the top specs is not really acceptable class balance, especially in Legion where switching class/spec is made harder, even if not that hard.

The 30% damage penalty, while not incredibly major in the grand scheme of things, just adds insult to the injury of our low-ish damage, on top of killing any possibility of Fury ever being viable in PvP. Yes, Fury is fun to play so I'll play it, but what's the point of making us take extra damage if we can't even dish out significant pain in return?

[Deleted]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it so that you can only get loot from certain amount of world bosses each week, and they appear as world quests? So you kind of choose which ones to kill

If that's so, which ones are you going for?

[Archimtiros]

+42 Item Level +1 Unrivaled Strength
or
+43 Item Level +1 Wrath and Fury

Icy Veins suggests Wrath and Fury, but I don't know if the info is outdated. Help would be appreciated

Wrath and Fury is better for ST, Unrivaled Strength is better for MT; 1 ilvl is fairly trivial, but I'd go for Wrath and Fury overall.

[Bigbazz]

I'd be fine with Arms having a better ST niche while Fury did a bit better on AoE. That's good spec design I think, so long as the difference is manageable. A 100k DPS difference is not what I'd call manageable, however. I'd be OK with Arms doing 5-10% more single-target when played optimally, but not the giant gulf that exists right now between the two specs.

I mean, I also don't believe Arms is going to escape a heavy nerfbat, but that doesn't help warriors much if Fury's ST goes untouched. We shouldn't be top of the pack, but being so behind the top specs is not really acceptable class balance, especially in Legion where switching class/spec is made harder, even if not that hard.

The 30% damage penalty, while not incredibly major in the grand scheme of things, just adds insult to the injury of our low-ish damage, on top of killing any possibility of Fury ever being viable in PvP. Yes, Fury is fun to play so I'll play it, but what's the point of making us take extra damage if we can't even dish out significant pain in return?

See I disagree, I actually think Fury should be top of the pack like times past. Fury went from a single target top contender + cleave king to eventually being the Bladestorm or retire spec in WOD and now the mediocre at most stuff but "ok" at burst AOE spec... Top ST in Legion won't happen because Fury has the scaling capability of a 1 legged donkey but I truly believe that Fury "should" go back to the roots of being top single target.

I never understand when people say otherwise, as if to be conditioned to the idea that Fury isn't meant to be top single target these days. I'd be happy if there was a 5% difference between all specs on single target, hell I used to remember people being mad at a 5% difference due to "hybrid tax"... Nowadays we have a 30-40% niche tax instead.

[Jastall]

See I disagree, I actually think Fury should be top of the pack like times past. Fury went from a single target top contender + cleave king to eventually being the Bladestorm or retire spec in WOD and now the mediocre at most stuff but "ok" at burst AOE spec... Top ST in Legion won't happen because Fury has the scaling capability of a 1 legged donkey but I truly believe that Fury "should" go back to the roots of being top single target.

I never understand when people say otherwise, as if to be conditioned to the idea that Fury isn't meant to be top single target these days. I'd be happy if there was a 5% difference between all specs on single target, hell I used to remember people being mad at a 5% difference due to "hybrid tax"... Nowadays we have a 30-40% niche tax instead.

I'm being a realist. Fury is highly unlikely to go from low-middle of the pack to top ST. So if Blizzard wants Arms as the top ST warrior spec and Fury not far behind with better AoE, I'd be OK with it.

Of course, we're not there right now, and I agree with you that this much imbalance between specs is very bad. We'll see how they tune all this in time, of course, but I'm not expecting Fury to get a massive power boost. I expect us to be squarely middle of the pack in ST like we sorta were in much of WoD. I'm not looking to top meters myself, I mostly want my spec not to suck so that I can contribute to my guild's raids and not feel bad when I do my best and still end up doing inadequate DPS, while I can hop on my DH, push buttons mostly as I see fit and almost manage the same numbers while being 15 ilvls lower and much less optimized.

I understand that perfect balance is impossible to achieve, but still, the massive disparity we currently see has no place in a game that is so old the devs should know every system, and how they affect balance and numbers, better than the back of their hands. I'd understand a 10-15% difference between very top and very bottom specs, not the almost 50% disparity we have now. Again, we'll see how the tuning pass goes.

[Fourze]

I agree it's unrealistic to think it would happen but at the same time when taking extra damage just by playing optimally we almost should have that exact spot for that very reason.

[Rorke]

Rampage is the reason why Fury sucks.

[Thorgarth]

Wrath and Fury is better for ST, Unrivaled Strength is better for MT; 1 ilvl is fairly trivial, but I'd go for Wrath and Fury overall.

Thank you, sir.

[Fallom]

Why do people keep saying we shouldn't be top of the pack? Why not? Why is Rogue/Mage/Hunter/warlock allowed to be the top but not warrior with Gigantic swords and a 30% damage taken increase not allowed to be? If Blizzard class fantasy is take more damage but have more hp to do more damage, then middle of the road doesn't work.

Especially in solo content where heavy hitting rares take 1/4th of your HP per swing. You cant self heal through that when your charge is on cool down, as well as comanding and enraged regen.

If OP aoe is the concern make BT single target only and add deep wounds with a trauma like effect that stacks with rampage as well. Something that can add up over a ST fight but not be OP in trash. To keep the bleed up you have to tab target and earn DPS on AOE.
As the deepwounds / trauma effect builds your dps ST goes up.

I'm not super mathy but it could be a solution.

On top of that class fantasywise, the damn swords are serated with hooks on the end and half the talent/AF nodes have something to do with Blood or blood letting and yet fury has no bleed effect? Seriously?

[Teranzil]

I'd like to add something about the 30% damage taken 'debuff'. I was in Mythic VH the other day against the Fel Lord chap, he has an ability called 'Fel Slash' which cannot be avoided, you simply have to move away from your allies. Because I was enraged it actually ended up one shotting me. Granted, I wasn't at full hp but near enough. I took an extra 500-600k damage more from an unavoidable ability than anyone else. While these types of mechanics are few and far apart, raid wide damage is commonplace. Even taking Warpaint (which is a laughable talent anyway) is still going to make the spec some what of a liability in those types of scenarios. Like most of the people above have said, give Fury a trade off for taking considerably more damage. We're like a glass cannon without the cannon.

[Ellianar]

I'm being a realist. Fury is highly unlikely to go from low-middle of the pack to top ST. .

Boost RB damage by 400%, gj fury is now top 1 ST by a 50% difference. So it's definitely feasible, blizz just need to get their head out of their asses.

[Factoral]

I love Fury warrior, and I thought all this talk of Arms being way better was a bit exaggerated. But last night I thought I would finally try arms.

And holy hell what a difference. I was doing more dps than Fury with much less effort. There was no working around enrage, it was purely pressing certain buttons in an order not caring about anything else.

God damn I need to level up my arms weapon now :/

[SergeantYolo]

I have no idea how to sim the artifact relics, so quick question. I've gotten a 845 fire relic with increased damage to rampage.
I currently am using a 835 fire relic with RB damage. Do any of you have any opinion on which would be better?

Are the 3 ilvls worth the worse trait?

[Deleted]

I'd like to add something about the 30% damage taken 'debuff'. I was in Mythic VH the other day against the Fel Lord chap, he has an ability called 'Fel Slash' which cannot be avoided, you simply have to move away from your allies. Because I was enraged it actually ended up one shotting me. Granted, I wasn't at full hp but near enough. I took an extra 500-600k damage more from an unavoidable ability than anyone else. While these types of mechanics are few and far apart, raid wide damage is commonplace. Even taking Warpaint (which is a laughable talent anyway) is still going to make the spec some what of a liability in those types of scenarios. Like most of the people above have said, give Fury a trade off for taking considerably more damage. We're like a glass cannon without the cannon.

Firstly I'm almost certain you can side step Fel Slash but more importantly if you were being hit for 1.9 to 2.1 million before Enraged that would kill literally any other DPS from full HP regardless so clearly you either weren't at full HP or you're over-exaggerating.

Edit: To take an extra 500k damage you'd have to have taken a hit for just over 2.6m and to take an extra 600k you'd have to have taken a hit for 3m. I'm fairly sure it does around 1.5m on mythic, seeing as my GF survived a hit with 10-20% HP from full HP on her Boomkin.

[Recom]

I'd like to add something about the 30% damage taken 'debuff'. I was in Mythic VH the other day against the Fel Lord chap, he has an ability called 'Fel Slash' which cannot be avoided, you simply have to move away from your allies. Because I was enraged it actually ended up one shotting me. Granted, I wasn't at full hp but near enough. I took an extra 500-600k damage more from an unavoidable ability than anyone else. While these types of mechanics are few and far apart, raid wide damage is commonplace. Even taking Warpaint (which is a laughable talent anyway) is still going to make the spec some what of a liability in those types of scenarios. Like most of the people above have said, give Fury a trade off for taking considerably more damage. We're like a glass cannon without the cannon.

Fel Slash does 1.33M damage so while enraged it would go up to 1.33*1.3=1.73M. I don't know your ilvl but you should have between 2 and 2.2M HP in mythic so you were clearly not at full health.
In addition, this kind of abilities require that you use a personnal defensive cooldown (Enraged Regen or Shout, both would have saved you) so you don't rely 100% on your healer. And lastly you could always NOT enrage yourself RIGHT BEFORE taking the hit. Yes it's a DPS loss but it would be for any other class/spec and is it better to be dead ? No.

TLDR : use your cooldowns and manage your enrage properly.

[Teranzil]

Fel Slash does 1.33M damage so while enraged it would go up to 1.33*1.3=1.73M. I don't know your ilvl but you should have between 2 and 2.2M HP in mythic so you were clearly not at full health.
In addition, this kind of abilities require that you use a personnal defensive cooldown (Enraged Regen or Shout, both would have saved you) so you don't rely 100% on your healer. And lastly you could always NOT enrage yourself RIGHT BEFORE taking the hit. Yes it's a DPS loss but it would be for any other class/spec and is it better to be dead ? No.

TLDR : use your cooldowns and manage your enrage properly.

As I said, I wasn't at full hp, but close enough. Defensive abilities were on CD from a tank Dc'ing. That doesn't change the fact that the spec is much more of a liability in situations where damage is unavoidable. The 'don't enrage yourself' argument is pretty invalid 1: because it's part of our core and the only control we have over it is rampage and 2: anyone who is serious about progress raiding is much more likely to take a class/spec who can continue to do their job during these raid wide damage scenarios, not sit off and lose potentially considerable amounts of dps because of a botched design.

- - - Updated - - -

Firstly I'm almost certain you can side step Fel Slash but more importantly if you were being hit for 1.9 to 2.1 million before Enraged that would kill literally any other DPS from full HP regardless so clearly you either weren't at full HP or you're over-exaggerating.

Edit: To take an extra 500k damage you'd have to have taken a hit for just over 2.6m and to take an extra 600k you'd have to have taken a hit for 3m. I'm fairly sure it does around 1.5m on mythic, seeing as my GF survived a hit with 10-20% HP from full HP on her Boomkin.

If you read it properly, I said I wasn't at full hp, but close enough. You can't side step it either. As I've just said to someone else, it doesn't change the fact that 30% more damage taken is a botched design in most scenarios where you're taking unavoidable damage. You can sit off and not dps, sure, but then why bring the spec in the first place when there are plenty of others who aren't as debilitated.

[TehTemplar]

snip

Mythic Fel Lord Betrug's Fel Slash takes 3 seconds to cast and does 1.25m dmg(taken straight from the dungeon journal). If it hit you while enraged that's 1.62m dmg.

Even low geared fury has 2 to 2.1 mil hp.

So you were at 75% hp and expected to survive without any defensive cooldowns? Since you obviously didn't take warpaint you probably took Furious Charge, which you could've done in those 3 seconds and healed yourself enough to survive.

Also even a similarly geared arms warrior which would have around 1.6-1.7 mil hp would die to that when missing over 25% of his health if he doesn't use a defensive cooldown.

Not defending Enrage's 30% dmg taken because it is a bit ridiculous with our meh self heal. But it's perfectly viable.

[Recom]

As I said, I wasn't at full hp, but close enough. Defensive abilities were on CD from a tank Dc'ing. That doesn't change the fact that the spec is much more of a liability in situations where damage is unavoidable. The 'don't enrage yourself' argument is pretty invalid 1: because it's part of our core and the only control we have over it is rampage and 2: anyone who is serious about progress raiding is much more likely to take a class/spec who can continue to do their job during these raid wide damage scenarios, not sit off and lose potentially considerable amounts of dps because of a botched design.

I'm sorry but that's just false. All of it.

First, you weren't at full hp, ok fine but how much health did you actually have ? 80% ? 70 % ?
Take any other spec, with say 840 ilvl, they should have 1.7M HP, if they were below 80% (so below 1.36M) they would die too, same as you. They would be in an even worse position since 30% of 1.7M (510k) is more than 30% of 1.33M (399k) so you gain more additional health than you take additional damage.

Second, about enrage, you have 2 ways to enrage : BT or Rampage, a big hit is coming ? Don't push those two buttons. Worst case scenario, you have to spend 4 seconds without enrage, that sucks I'll give you that but you can still FS to be sure to enrage right after you take the hit or things like that. A mage would have to use IB and wouldn't be able to cast anything for 1-2 secs, it really isn't a better solution.

[Tellof]

Did I miss something with the whole extra damage taken "problem"? I remember @Archimtiros doing multiple write-ups like 2-3 months ago talking about how the extra HP you get along with things from the artifact actually make you MORE durable during enrage. What happened to that? Did it change or are people just forgetting/don't know?

[Deleted]

To all of you that didn't tried the level 15 talent "Killing machine" yet, do it, it makes the gameplay so much faster and actually beats endless rage if you have a decent uptime on it, plus it seems to be bugged atm as it gives me 38% instead, this + massacre is so much fun.