Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[RapBreon]

You've done 1 million 3 minute runs on the dummy?

I appreciate the sentiment, but I'd expect even with bad luck to be a bit closer and expect the spread to be on the whole a bit more random. It's consistently under target, within a specific realm 220-230k on almost every attempt.

It certainly can be due to small sample size, but it would be pretty unlucky considering my experiences. As I said, I've never gotten above target on any lengthy test, or even remotely close. Dungeon bosses are too short to consider reliable (6 buffs on pull 450k on boss is hardly consistent). So I'm hedging more towards:

A: I'm bad.
B: Something funky is going on.

That's why I'm interested to hear how others are faring.

[Creamz]

Actually you are not doing anything wrong. It is the spec. In the emerald nightmare things will get more worse. You will only be top dps with good rolls or a cd reduction roll during your AR/Artifact usage. People tend to believe sims because its "math/statistics".
The first thing you learn in the university regarding statistics is to never trust them unless you have done them by yourself.

Regarding all the "top rogue guides" out there. For example from Stjern. His Statweights for Sin Rogues are just wrong. So are his Trinket statweights and all the Trinket Statweights in the other Sims.

You can still believe what ever you want, but i said it before and i will say it again and again. Sin Rogues will outdps Outlaw Rogues in the first Raidtier because - and that was never taken into all the calculation - you are not able to stick to a boss all the time as a melee because of all the mechanics. What spec still do dps even when not hitting the boss? -> Sin Rogues.


When the Progress is done, and you are able to reach 34 artifact traits, got nice gear, outlaw will dominate in every possible way, because you will still do a nice flat dps even with "bad" rolls.

Right now and for the first weeks of progress my Mythic guild will go for 2 SIN Rogues with at least 24 Traits (3 Golden Traits) We will see how this will work out.

[Deleted]

Actually you are not doing anything wrong. It is the spec. In the emerald nightmare things will get more worse. You will only be top dps with good rolls or a cd reduction roll during your AR/Artifact usage. People tend to believe sims because its "math/statistics".
The first thing you learn in the university regarding statistics is to never trust them unless you have done them by yourself.

Regarding all the "top rogue guides" out there. For example from Stjern. His Statweights for Sin Rogues are just wrong. So are his Trinket statweights and all the Trinket Statweights in the other Sims.

You can still believe what ever you want, but i said it before and i will say it again and again. Sin Rogues will outdps Outlaw Rogues in the first Raidtier because - and that was never taken into all the calculation - you are not able to stick to a boss all the time as a melee because of all the mechanics. What spec still do dps even when not hitting the boss? -> Sin Rogues.


When the Progress is done, and you are able to reach 34 artifact traits, got nice gear, outlaw will dominate in every possible way, because you will still do a nice flat dps even with "bad" rolls.

Right now and for the first weeks of progress my Mythic guild will go for 2 SIN Rogues with at least 24 Traits (3 Golden Traits) We will see how this will work out.

This!
Thats why i changed to sin, so much missinformation in thos forum regarding high dps numbers you can ONLY reach which luck. Just bad i pumped any AP from the surumar quests into my outlaw weapons but higher research level will solve this.

[shaunika123]

my god there's more confusion, misinformation and false sense of wisdom on this board than a christian forum.

YOU DONT NEED GOOD RNG TO BEAT ASSA

the only reason you think that is because in dungeons fights are really short, so when you have a 1 minute fight and you wrongly believe that you need to keep rerolling like you would a 5-6 minute fight you end up getting really faulty results

outlaw recks assasination even without good RNG, yes when you get a 1,5 minute bossfight and you have really shitty rolls you might lose to an assa rogue
is that relevant? no it is not.

[Deleted]

Dude thats why you have trainind dummys and enough time for several attemps.
Try it out, have a look at the "sims" too uptime of any buff is at 34 but how less rolls are calculated...
Just try it out on dummys, assa wins most of the times.

[shaunika123]

Dude thats why you have trainind dummys and enough time for several attemps.
Try it out, have a look at the "sims" too uptime of any buff is at 34 but how less rolls are calculated...
Just try it out on dummys, assa wins most of the times.

what gear
what stats
how many artifact points

etc etc etc etc

[ymirsson]

You can still believe what ever you want, but i said it before and i will say it again and again. Sin Rogues will outdps Outlaw Rogues in the first Raidtier because - and that was never taken into all the calculation - you are not able to stick to a boss all the time as a melee because of all the mechanics. What spec still do dps even when not hitting the boss? -> Sin Rogues.

DPS and sims include times of not being in range.
If it was all about the uptime, we'd be in World of Rangecraft. Which we are not, currently, according to everyone.

Just because your rupture (and other dots of course) do damage without your further input or you being in melee range, does not mean it's an automatic DPS increase for the encounter as a whole.

[Aethys256]

Do not take Haste.
It's the worst stats for every Rogue Specs.
Altough, it's less worse on Outlaw than on Sublety & Assassination.

[Deleted]

Hey!

I used Simcraft 703-01 for my Outlaw and it shows that Haste is for me the best secondary stat.

Scale Factors for Zulkaal Damage Per Second
Agi Haste Vers Crit Mastery
Scale Factors 6.55 5.01 3.92 3.90 3.56
Normalized 1.00 0.77 0.60 0.60 0.54
Scale Deltas 1138 1138 1138 1138 1138
Error 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.29 0.28
Gear Ranking wowhead
Optimizers askmrrobot
Ranking Agi > Haste > Vers ~= Crit > Mastery


But I read that Haste isnt that great for Outlaw rogues, so how does that result happen?

[Tyrarolls]

people have to understand that after vers it depends on your gear which stat is the best secondary one.
no idea how people expect to have one solution for every rogue...just sim your character.
at one point for me crit was even better than vers. - bc i just had 27% crit and something like 6,8k vers.

now - at ilvl 850 ..vers is at 0.56 - crit 0.53 - mastery 0.46 and haste 0.44 iirc..smth like that

[shaunika123]

Do not take Haste.
It's the worst stats for every Rogue Specs.
Altough, it's less worse on Outlaw than on Sublety & Assassination.

haste is pretty good stat for current content
it will be less good in raids but right now it's very useful for dungeons, since you dont just keep hitting a boss for 6 minutes with 20 stacks of alacrity all the time.

[Master Guns]

Because I'm seriously trying to like Outlaw, I really am, I have some questions.

During boss pulls, I'm going to guess we open with Ambush from stealth, and then proceed to generate combo points for a favorable RTB roll? And THEN pop CDs? or am I incorrect?

Do you use MFD to generate combo points for RTB, or wait until you've gotten 2+ buffs to start using it for run throughs?

how do you guys utilize adrenaline rush and curse of the dreadblades? When do you pop them, and when is not okay to use them?

[Deleted]

Before the pull I use MFD + roll the bones, if I get a single buff that doesn't provide any benefit during AR+CoTDB (buried treasure/broadsides) I will ambush, ghostly strike, saberslash and re-roll again. If its still shitty I say fuck it and pop AR + CoTDB. If I get something decent from MFD, i'lll use: Ambush, ghostly strike, AR, saberslash, RT, then i'll RT spam using COTDB.

If I get buried treasure & broadsides i'll use adrenaline rush and save curse of the dreadblades for later. The only time i'll reroll for 2+ in a boss fight is if: the boss is over 60% HP or if I have a single buff of true bearing/grand melee and for some reason have no cooldowns to use (AR/CoTDB).

Edit - If things get really shitty (i.e. no cooldowns, single buff, getting no saberslash procs, no pistol shot procs, no combat potency procs - this is quite rare, but it happens) i'll get down to 0 energy, pop a thistle tea and carry on from there.

[Aethys256]

haste is pretty good stat for current content
it will be less good in raids but right now it's very useful for dungeons, since you dont just keep hitting a boss for 6 minutes with 20 stacks of alacrity all the time.

Stop the feelycrafting.



It's part of what we're building with Skasch, it will be added to my spreadsheet pretty soon. (for all 3 specs, for all 4 scenarios I handle and for 3 different total stats budget)

Haste is less useless as Outlaw than Sub/Assn, but still is. And don't forget Alacrity.
Alacrity is better than CB after 15-25s.

[ButteryPancakes]

I am sure this has been discussed to ad nauseam and I want to apologize in advance for that. I just really need to make sure I am understanding this.

Is it correct that the first thing we do is spam 5-6 combo point roll the bones until we get at least 2 buffs? So if there is some bad luck going and I am getting nothing but one buff I just keep spamming my combo point generators until I hit 5-6, roll the bones, and repeat UNTIL I get at least 2?

Does this keep going for the duration of the whole fight? By this I mean after I finally get 2+ buffs and the duration expires I repeat this process again?

Sorry if this seems like such a noob question and is obvious but I just want to make sure. I had a fight where I did not get 2+ buffs for a good minute and it started to feel odd to me that all I was doing was spamming 5-6 combo point roll the bones. Thank you in advance for any helpful response.

[Sephiroso]

I am sure this has been discussed to ad nauseam and I want to apologize in advance for that. I just really need to make sure I am understanding this.

Is it correct that the first thing we do is spam 5-6 combo point roll the bones until we get at least 2 buffs? So if there is some bad luck going and I am getting nothing but one buff I just keep spamming my combo point generators until I hit 5-6, roll the bones, and repeat UNTIL I get at least 2?

Does this keep going for the duration of the whole fight? By this I mean after I finally get 2+ buffs and the duration expires I repeat this process again?

Sorry if this seems like such a noob question and is obvious but I just want to make sure. I had a fight where I did not get 2+ buffs for a good minute and it started to feel odd to me that all I was doing was spamming 5-6 combo point roll the bones. Thank you in advance for any helpful response.

Trash that lives no longer than a minute? RTB once and only once and deal with what you got. Twice if you if MfD is up.

Boss that lives no longer than roughly a minute? RTB with MfD on adds that die quickly. But mostly, deal with what you got.

[ButteryPancakes]

Trash that lives no longer than a minute? RTB once and only once and deal with what you got. Twice if you if MfD is up.

Boss that lives no longer than roughly a minute? RTB with MfD on adds that die quickly. But mostly, deal with what you got.

All right sounds good.

I am assuming then that if the boss fight will exceed that time then to roll until at least 2? I am not even sure if re-rolling for 2+ buffs is optimal, its just what a lot of guild mates are telling me and I wanted to make sure. Thank you for your response, I really appreciate it.

[Master Guns]

Once again I am questioning this whole only "roll once and deal with what you have" mentality on boss fights in heroics. I can't break 150K DPS doing that at 837 ilvl with 856 artifacts.

- - - Updated - - -

And I'm going to start demanding video proof, that I'm not an idiot and you're just lying

[elfporn]

Once again I am questioning this whole only "roll once and deal with what you have" mentality on boss fights in heroics. I can't break 150K DPS doing that at 837 ilvl with 856 artifacts.

- - - Updated - - -

And I'm going to start demanding video proof, that I'm not an idiot and you're just lying

it's related to time, if something is going to die really fuckin fast, then don't spend the entire fight rerolling, it's up to you to judge what buffs you're okay with, get 1 or more of them, and kill whatever it is that's dying so quickly.

[Sephiroso]

Once again I am questioning this whole only "roll once and deal with what you have" mentality on boss fights in heroics. I can't break 150K DPS doing that at 837 ilvl with 856 artifacts.

- - - Updated - - -

And I'm going to start demanding video proof, that I'm not an idiot and you're just lying

The key is be smart with MfD. Be smart with when to not use opportunity procs. Be smart with when to use RT at 5cp and not try to go for 6cp. Also keeping up GS is key. No way you should be doing much less than 200k even with a garbage roll unless you started the fight with no cds and it ended before they were up.

Almost every boss has adds that you can use MfD and insta-reroll or use to get mad RTs out with blade flurry up(if they're stacked which 9 times out of 10 they should be).

The only fights i do garbage dps on is cordana vault of the warden and inquisitor vault of the warden. Cordana because i do the light because everyone else is fucking retarded usually, and Inquisitor cause im busy trying to stay alive(talking mythics).