Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Deleted]

1.5s (less with haste!) isnt nearly enough time to accomplish this.

Rogue GCD is actually 1s across all specs.

[Gallahadd]

One thing I'm hoping... Since outlaw is meant to be the "Toe to Toe scrapper" spec, I think it could really do with boosted defenses...

Obviously it wouldn't need tank level defenses, but SOMETHING.

[Florena]

One thing I'm hoping... Since outlaw is meant to be the "Toe to Toe scrapper" spec, I think it could really do with boosted defenses...

Obviously it wouldn't need tank level defenses, but SOMETHING.

Yeah, really hoping they deliver in this department. It needs some non cooldown related defenses, in exchange for less use of stealth. Hell I'd even be wiling to trade vanish if it meant more non stealth and non cd defenses for them.

[bloodmoth13]

Rogue GCD is actually 1s across all specs.

Yeesh, GL blizz

Yeah, really hoping they deliver in this department. It needs some non cooldown related defenses, in exchange for less use of stealth. Hell I'd even be wiling to trade vanish if it meant more non stealth and non cd defenses for them.

The game is mostly PVE, I think a big problem is that dps defenses in PVE largely dont matter, id love to see a reworked threat system where DPS need to deal with trash too and new niches for bruiser DPS players, but thats just me.

[Gallahadd]

Yeah, really hoping they deliver in this department. It needs some non cooldown related defenses, in exchange for less use of stealth. Hell I'd even be wiling to trade vanish if it meant more non stealth and non cd defenses for them.

Indeed. Non CD, non stealth defenses need to be implemented. Something along the line of a CP based Parry buff, or a VERY short CD dodge ability.

Something that will make us able to solo effectively, but not something which will make us Offtank viable.

[Florena]

Yeesh, GL blizz



The game is mostly PVE, I think a big problem is that dps defenses in PVE largely dont matter, id love to see a reworked threat system where DPS need to deal with trash too and new niches for bruiser DPS players, but thats just me.

Oh I disagree. Cloak of shadows, feint, ice block, touch of karma etc all are very useful defensives in pve.

[Tore]

I'd argue that dps defensive CDs are the only reason certain DPS even get brought to raids sometimes. My raid is very melee heavy and we're progressing on mythic Tyrant. We want as little melee as we can get away with because with a melee heavy comp the Tempest splash will obliterate the melee pile. So when choosing which melee to sit, we considered what defensives they have to help P2 and the final P1 Edict. A warrior is brought for Rally, a DK is brought for AMZ, we don't have a Rogue on the roster but we would absolutely bring him for Cloak on an Edict soak and Feint for other Edicts, Tempest, P2 splashes, and P3 knockbacks.

In a lot of way your utility and defensives are what make or break you. Rogues are a special case because they're topping meters, but for most other melee, there's no reason to bring them from a damage-dealing perspective when you could just have another Mage. So the reason for having them will have to be separate from their dps capabilities. If you bring a warrior it's because you want a Rally and Vigi, otherwise that spot is more usefully filled by a Mage, Hunter, Rogue, or Warlock.

These issues are one of the reasons I'm very interested to see if Combat Outlaw retains Cloak of Shadows. Cloak is such a powerful cooldown.

[bloodmoth13]

Oh I disagree. Cloak of shadows, feint, ice block, touch of karma etc all are very useful defensives in pve.

Not really what i meant, but i get your point

What i mean is that my DK having a ton of armor doesnt really matter compared to my shadow priest with 0 armor, the stat is irrelevant unless im attacked, which never happens because tanks hold all the threat.

Cooldowns have a purpose to cheese some mechanics or mitigate damage, but there isnt any moment to moment considerations for defenses

[Florena]

Not really what i meant, but i get your point

What i mean is that my DK having a ton of armor doesnt really matter compared to my shadow priest with 0 armor, the stat is irrelevant unless im attacked, which never happens because tanks hold all the threat.

Cooldowns have a purpose to cheese some mechanics or mitigate damage, but there isnt any moment to moment considerations for defenses

I see what you mean. But while WoW is a group pve game at its core pvp is still a big part of it many enjoy. Plus questing and soloing.

[bloodmoth13]

I see what you mean. But while WoW is a group pve game at its core pvp is still a big part of it many enjoy. Plus questing and soloing.

well aware of that!

what id like to see is more dps responsibility and niches, when dps are judged solely on damage output, there is always a clear choice on who to take, in the past buffs existed to force groups to diversify, but i think creating new niches for dps would be a better direction, like a bruiser niche that off tanks a mob or 2. in this situation, outlaw could be the rogue bruiser.

[Florena]

well aware of that!

what id like to see is more dps responsibility and niches, when dps are judged solely on damage output, there is always a clear choice on who to take, in the past buffs existed to force groups to diversify, but i think creating new niches for dps would be a better direction, like a bruiser niche that off tanks a mob or 2. in this situation, outlaw could be the rogue bruiser.

Why use a dps to tank though and not just the off tank? What would distinguish these mobs you want dps to tank feom the adds tanks already handle? What would the advantage be in forcing dps to tank them?

[bloodmoth13]

Why use a dps to tank though and not just the off tank? What would distinguish these mobs you want dps to tank feom the adds tanks already handle? What would the advantage be in forcing dps to tank them?

Eh.

I disagree strongly. Niche situations invariably lead to:
1) a development nightmare,
and/or
2) feeling pointless/useless whenever your niche isn't up

Disagree with your disagreement

It would require some significant changes to threat and how all that works.
The fantasy is to make melee perform the way they are supposed to in real life, you put people in heavy armor on the front line to take heat away from archers and such (its more complex than just that though), the gameplay of having 50 enemies attack one dude while these armored hulks just sit there all shiny-like feels odd to me.

What i would do?
There are 3 classes of threat:
Tank -> highest threat, can tank up to 7 targets, any extra will check for a new target instead, tanks have a cooldown to remove that cap for a short duration
Bruiser -> moderate threat, can tank up to 3 targets, any extra will check for a new target instead
anything else -> low threat, last of the bunch, will only get attacked if there is nothing else around.

This would be paired with enemy minion changes:
Tier 1 -> counts as 5 targets, can only be tanked by a true tank (Raid bosses or incredibly high priority enemies)
Tier 2 -> counts as 3 targets, can be tanked by either bruisers or tanks (regular bruiser units like ogres, drakonids, big heavy enemies)
Tier 3 -> Regular unit, counts as 1 target (basic trash and default enemies)
Tier 4 -> doesnt count toward a cap (things like skeletons, summons, bug swarms)

Threat wouldnt require damage to be dealt, enemies will just attack the target with highest threat who is in combat by default (growl and VW taunt removed) taunt would still function the same and temporarily increase threat cap by 1

With threat considerations like this, players will be forced to be more creative with how they deal with packs of enemies, they will either be forced to:
Tank through the extra enemies
Burst down the extra enemies
CC the extra enemies
heal through the extra enemy damage

The niches that would be introduced would correspond to each of the options
Bruisers would have minor tanking capacity and could off tank a few
Assassins would use high single target burst to dispatch anything above the cap
Crowd control supports would CC the extra enemies
Heal Supports would provide off healing either through damage or through swapping briefly to heals.

Bruisers:
arms, retribution, frost dk, unholy dk, outlaw rogues, enhance shamans, beast mastery hunters, survival hunters and demo warlocks and perhaps feral druids
Bruisers would make the group as a whole take more damage, but would allow the group to use all their AOE spells

Assassins:
Fire/arcane/frost mages, destro warlocks, marksman hunters, windwalker monks, feral druids and talent options for other classes
Assassins would be able to pool resources for strong burst situations and would need to focus on single target instead of aoe for multiple enemies, lowering total group damage but enabling the group to take less

Crowd control supports:
No examples atm (frost mages?)
CC supports would have rotational spells that stun enemy units, constantly interrupting high damage enemies

Heal Supports:
Shadow Priest, elemental shaman, resto affinity druids with affliction warlocks, retadins, WW monks and Enh shamans as possibilities
Heal supports would occasionally be able to off heal without interrupting their DPS rotations and would be able to drop their dps rotations to do full healing.

These 'niches' would all still be DPS classes, and they would all still perform strong DPS and be balanced to be equal with each other, even assassins vs heal supports, the only difference is how they deal with trash that the tank cant tank.

This would go a loooong way to reintroduce some much needed class diversity, and instead of nerfing dps specs utility till its irrelevant, you embrace it as a unique contribution and balance around it. For instance, Heal support DPS classes are now allowed decent off healing without having to lose out on damage and without making other specs irrelevant.

This way, not every class needs to be good at everything! I dont need a single target 1min CC as an arms warrior, instead i will just off tank that sonofabitch or i dont need to tank something as a frost mage because i can just CC the fucker till he gives up! I dont need to worry about turning taunt/growl off on my pet because my pet will be doing the team a favor by holding on to enemy soldiers etc etc.

Whats more, this creates new positions to consider for building your raid, in this case ranged is not strictly better than melee because many melee would have brusier qualities that would enable them to do jobs ranged cant do

Since the niches all basically focus on the same thing, which is enemy management, they will all be useful in different ways, its just a matter of solving the issue with different solutions and creative gameplay.

IMO, this would create more intuitive and immersive gameplay that allows players to play to their strengths instead of all only focusing on DPS meters

[Redecle]

Wowhead now has a lot of BETA details up about classes, including all rogue specs and what has been changed in particular abilities, talents and spec.

What's removed and what new.. etc.

Fast skim through Outlaw seems to be alright so far.
There's two things that caught my eye that are being removed,

Shiv is gone completely from all specs, not too thrilled about that. It's a niche tool but still utility that separates us from quite a few classes.
Not that the extra 10% poison apply does anything, but the enrage dispel. That's actually something i use a lot.
I feel like using it is the same thing as rogues often being chosen to interrupt stuff, it also separates rogues in skill.
Volunteering to interrupt rotations and paying attention to disenrages is always something extra to do than just nuke dps.

Another thing being removed is Recuperate. It's not the best heal in-game but to some solo stuff, specially higher end raid solo stuff it's mandatory glyphed.
Also nice to have in PvP, and solo world play, it keeps the flow of moving going and having to stop and eat after every mob is not necessary, which is annoying as hell. Bandaging hasn't been a thing in ages either, not that it really was a good thing.
And it doesn't seem to have anything replacing it. It's a choice mechanic, heal or dps.
Well Assass still have their Leeching poison and sub seemed to get some passive heal while in stealth, but that completely leaves Outlaw without a healing mechanic.
Outlaw does seem to get a lot of parry and evade mechanics, but to be honest i'd much rather have an actual heal than parries.
Cause you still can't be parrying or evading 100% of the time so there's no way to recover from taken damage in say like MoP raid soloes that hopefully are available in Legion, they won't get the nerf buff that Cata and WotLK got in WoD via stat purge, so things like Dark Animus are going to be a nightmare without selfhealing.

Another thing is that Shadowstep is tied to Assassination, I get that it's for the spec diversity, but still..
Burst of Speed is staying and it's staying pretty much the same, i'd rather see it go and SS to get back as mobility choice, BoS has been near mandatory in WoD in a lot of scenarios. Gonna miss Shadowstep, well already really missed it in WoD.

[Gallahadd]

A few things I like the look of:

Cannonball Barrage (1min CD): Command a ghost ship crew to barrage the target area with cannonballs doing 8 Physical damage over 1.80 sec and slowing enemies by 50% for 1.50 sec.

Roll the Bones: Finishing move that rolls the dice of fate, providing a random combat enhancement. Lasts longer per combo point Could either be very fun, or insanely annoying...

Weaponmaster: Your abilities have a 20% chance to hit the target twice each time they deal damage. Imagine Saber strike proccing Main Gauce proccing this...

Grappling Hook(30sec CD): Launch a grappling hook and pull yourself to the target location. Oh yeah

Riposte(2min CD): Gain 100% chance to parry for 10 sec. While active, each time you parry an attack you will riposte the target for 100% Physical damage. Ripostes cannot occur more often than once per 1 sec. CD's a bit long, but still could be VERY fun.

[Ujio]

Bribe: Bribe a humanoid target with fool's gold, convincing it to fight for you for 1 min.

This is a fun one

[Jaronicity]

A few things I like the look of:

Cannonball Barrage (1min CD): Command a ghost ship crew to barrage the target area with cannonballs doing 8 Physical damage over 1.80 sec and slowing enemies by 50% for 1.50 sec.

Roll the Bones: Finishing move that rolls the dice of fate, providing a random combat enhancement. Lasts longer per combo point Could either be very fun, or insanely annoying...

Weaponmaster: Your abilities have a 20% chance to hit the target twice each time they deal damage. Imagine Saber strike proccing Main Gauce proccing this...

Grappling Hook(30sec CD): Launch a grappling hook and pull yourself to the target location. Oh yeah

Riposte(2min CD): Gain 100% chance to parry for 10 sec. While active, each time you parry an attack you will riposte the target for 100% Physical damage. Ripostes cannot occur more often than once per 1 sec. CD's a bit long, but still could be VERY fun.

Weaponmaster is currently listed as a Subtlety talent so no SS > MG > WM procs

[Mafic]

Weaponmaster is currently listed as a Subtlety talent so no SS > MG > WM procs

Probably meant Swordmaster (chance for a free Saber Slash).

[Hntr]

what i like: 30s Sprint, riposte
what i dislike: ruthlessness is basically gone. doesn't reduce your cooldowns by 2sec for each CP spent. and that recuperate is now a talent, not baseline

[Redecle]

what i like: 30s Sprint, riposte
what i dislike: ruthlessness is basically gone. doesn't reduce your cooldowns by 2sec for each CP spent. and that recuperate is now a talent, not baseline

Where did you see Recuperate being a talent. In wowhead list it's under the list 'removed'.
I'd be down for it being a talent, rather than completely removed.


With a more detailed read it seems that Grappling Hook is essentially Shadowstep for Outlaw.
Guess that's something, it's different visuals but is essentially the same thing..

Roll the Bones sounds like a lot of unnecessary RNG. RNG can be fun in small doses but relying constantly playing with it, nope.
Well Multistrike being gone that leaves us hoping for those haste procs i assume.
Maybe mastery too, even though combat/outlaw mastery has been so boring for ages, but so are many other classes and specs.

Riposte CD seems quite long 2mins, but i guess that's for pvp reasons and warriors with overpower being the only ones capable countering it.

There seems to be quite a lot of PVE CC also in the new and some changed section things.
Bribe, Blind, Gouge, Kidney, Parley, Between the Eyes..
Couple of stuns there. One mc, 2 longer non dmg cc.
So 2 blinds for pvp, I though they tried to reduce the amount of cc in pvp, cause loss of control is not fun gameplay. And make the CC that's stays in to have more crucial and meaningful role. Think adding more is quite the opposite of all those aspects.
Not sure why we need so many different CCs for PVE unless group content CC is actually making a comeback.
Or the outdoor mob density is worse than WoD and MoP combined, at least to my knowledge it's not a contest of how many mobs can you fit in a square meter. It's just something that's been unreal lately, it's like a million pop crowded city out there in the wild, when actually usually in the wild you can probably see a moose and then no other animal anywhere in a 100 km radius.

I guess Bribe is fun to play with a little bit, but it's still situational. Last time i used my locks enslave was with green fire, my dks control undead i cannot even remember when i last time used that, and priest dominate was last used in Naxx on the mc boss. I don't know if we really need another highly situational ability like that. It's flavor, but is it necessary? Choice is good, but Blizz admitted they are spreading out the talents more, so less theme row based and more competitive choices. To me it just seems like anything dps related goes above 2 boss per 10 years situational talent.

Regarding Recuperate there was a mention under passive talent Iron Stomach which increases health stones and potions effectiveness by 30% or something called Crimson Vial. Wonder if that's a self heal or something else since there's nothing mentioning it anywhere else in the notes.

[Mafic]

Roll the Bones isn't going to make the cut or becomes changed to something more reliable. I don't see how having an RNG finisher makes things interesting.