[Pre-Beta] Vengeance Discussion

[Orloth]

Vengeance Demon Hunters are far larger and tougher than the lean Havoc Demon Hunters, but still use their speed and agility to evade their foes' attacks wherever possible.

~Offensive Abilities~

Shear: Shears an enemy for (250% of weapon damage) Physical damage, and has a small chance to shatter a Lesser Soul Fragment from your target that heals you for (425% of Attack power) health when consumed. Generates 10 Pain.

Shear (Passive): Shear has a small chance to shatter the target's soul, leaving a Lesser Soul Fragment behind for 20 sec. The Lesser Soul Fragment will be consumed when you approach it or cast Soul Cleave, healing you for (425% of Attack power) health. If the Greater Soul Fragment comes from a Demon, you will deal 20% increased damage for 20 sec.

Immolation Aura (15 sec CD): Engulf yourself in flames, instantly causing [ 220% of Attack Power ] Fire damage to enemies within 8 yards and radiating [ 50% of Attack Power ] Fire damage every sec. Lasts 6 sec. Generates 20 Pain over 6 sec.

Infernal Strike (20 sec CD, 2 Charges): Leap through the air toward a targeted location, dealing [ 1 + 70% of Attack Power ] Fire damage to all enemies within 6 yards.

Throw Glaive: Throw a demonic glaive at the target, dealing (50% of weapon damage) Physical damage. The glaive can ricochet to 2 additional enemies within 10 yards. Generates high threat.

~Defensive Abilities~

Shattered Souls (Passive): Killing a target will sometimes shatter their soul, leaving a Soul Fragment behind for 20 sec. The Soul Fragment will be consumed when you approach it, healing you for (2125% of Attack power) health. Consuming a Demon's soul will grant you 20% increased damage for 20 sec.

Soul Cleave (40 Pain): Viciously strike all enemies in front of you for (550% of weapon damage) Physical damage, and heal yourself for (850% of Attack power). Consumes all Soul Fragments within 20 yds.

Demon Spikes (10 Pain, 15 sec CD, 2 Charges): Surge with fel power, increasing your parry chance by 20% and reducing Physical damage taken by 8% for 6 sec.

Demonic Wards (Passive): Your tattoos reduce magical damage taken by 10%, and increase your Stamina by 20% and your Armor by 200%.

Riposte (Passive): You gain Parry equal to 100% of your Critical Strike from gear.

Mastery: Fel Blood (Passive): Demon Spikes reduces Physical damage taken by an additional 8.00%.
Also increases your attack power by 8%.

~Utility~

Consume Magic (20 sec CD): Interrupts the enemy's spellcasting and locks them from that school of magic for 3 sec. Generates 50 Pain on a successful interrupt.

Darkness (3 min CD): Summons darkness around you in a 15 yd radius, cloaking friendly targets and reducing the chance they are hit by spells and melee attacks by 50%. Lasts 10 sec. Currently MIA.

Sigil of Chains (2 min CD): Place a Sigil of Chains at the target location that activates after 2 sec. All enemies affected by the sigil are pulled to its center and are snared, reducing movement speed by 70% for 6 sec.

Sigil of Flame (30 sec CD): Place a Sigil of Flame at the target location that activates after 2 sec. Deals [275% of AP] Fire damage, and an additional [300% of AP] Fire damage over 6 sec, to all enemies affected by the sigil.

Sigil of Silence (1 min CD): Place a Sigil of Silence at the target location that activates after 2 sec. Silences all enemies affected by the sigil for 6 sec.

Torment (8 sec CD): Taunts the target to attack you, and increases threat that you generate against the target for 3 sec.

Double Jump (Passive): You are able to jump again while near the apex of your first jump.

Glide: Reduces your falling speed. You can activate this ability with the jump key while falling.

Spectral Sight (30 sec CD): Allows you to see enemies and treasures through physical barriers, as well as enemies that are stealthed and invisible. Lasts 10 sec. Attacking or taking damage disrupts the sight.

~Cooldowns~

Empower Wards (30 sec CD): Reduces magical damage taken by 30% for 6 sec.

Fiery Brand (1 min CD): Brand an enemy with a demonic symbol, instantly dealing (400% of Attack power)% Fire damage and reducing the damage they do to you by 40% for 8 sec.

Metamorphosis (3 min CD): Transform to demon form for 20 sec, increasing current and maximum health by 30%. Generates 10 Pain every 1 sec.

~Talents~

http://beta.wowdb.com/talent-calculator#y

Tier 1:

Abyssal Strike: Infernal Strike's range is increased by 10 yards, and its cooldown is reduced by 5 sec.

Blade Turning: Parrying an attack generates 5 Pain.

Fracture (40 Pain): Brutally slam your target for [ 500% of Attack Power ] Physical damage, and shatter two Lesser Soul Fragments from them.

Tier 2:

Agonizing Flames: Immolation Aura increases your movement speed by 30%, and deals 100% increased damage.

Quickened Sigils: All Sigils activate 1 second faster, and their range is increased by 10 yards.

Fel Eruption (20 Pain, 25 sec CD): Impales the target for [1,000% of AP] Physical damage and stuns them for 2 sec.

Tier 3:

Felblade (15 sec CD): Charge to your target and deal (400% of weapon damage) Fire damage. Shear has a chance to reset the cooldown of Felblade. Generates 20 Pain.

Soul Barrier: Consuming a Soul Fragment while you are at full health grants a shield that absorbs [ 425% of Attack Power * Percent Health + 4% of Attack Power * Attack Power * Percent Health ] damage. Lasts 10 sec.

Last Resort: Sustaining fatal damage instead transforms you to Metamorphosis form, and returns you to 30% health. This effect may only occur every 3 min.

Tier 4:

Spirit Bomb: Launch a nearby Soul Fragment at your target, exploding for [ 150% of Attack Power ] Shadow damage in a 6 yd radius. Damaged enemies become Frail for 10 sec, increasing your chance to shatter Lesser Soul Fragments from them.

Etched in Blood: Every 20 Pain that you spend reduces the remaining cooldown of your Sigils by 1 sec.

Soul Rending: Gain 50% Leech while Metamorphosis is active.

Tier 5:

Burning Alive: Every 2 sec, your Fiery Brand deals [ 100% of Attack Power ] Fire damage and spreads from the primary target to a nearby enemy.

Concentrated Sigils: All Sigils are now targeted at your location, and the duration of their effects is increased by 2 sec.

Feast of Souls: Soul Cleave heals you for an additional [ 390% of Attack Power * Percent Health ] over 6 sec.

Tier 6:

Brand of the Hunt (2 min CD): Brand an enemy with a demonic symbol, increasing the damage you deal to them by 10%. At any time, you can reactivate Brand of the Hunt to immediately teleport to the target. Lasts 60 sec.

Sigil of Misery (60 sec CD): Place a Sigil of Misery at the target location that activates after 2 sec. Causes all enemies affected by the sigil to cower in fear, disorienting them for 30 sec.

Razor Spikes: While Demon Spikes is active, your Physical damage dealt is increased by 20% and your melee attacks snare targets by 50% for 6 sec.

Tier 7:

Fel Devastation (30 Pain, 2 sec Channel, 60 sec cooldown): Unleash the fel within you, damaging enemies directly in front of you for [ 10 + 1,100% of Attack Power ] Fire damage. Causing damage also heals you for up to 50% of your maximum health.

Nether Bond (2 min CD): Bind yourself to a friendly player for 15 sec. Every 1 sec, the health of you and your target is redistributed such that you are at the same percentage of maximum health.

Feed the Demon: Consuming a Soul Fragment reduces the remaining cooldown of Demon Spikes by 2 sec

~Artifact~

The Aldrachi Warblades

Aldrachi Warblades and Aldrachi Warblades

Soul Carver (60 sec CD): Carve into the soul of your target, shattering off 2 Lesser Soul Fragments and dealing (700% of weapon damage) Fire damage to your target and causing the target to burn for [ 1 + 150% of Attack Power ] Fire damage and lose another Lesser Soul Fragment every 1 sec for 3 sec.

Charred Warblades: You heal for 15% of all Fire damage dealt.

Fueled by Pain: You have a chance to enter Metamorphosis form for 10 sec each time you consume a Soul Fragment.

Painbringer: Each Soul Fragment consumed grants you 3% damage reduction for 4 sec.[/COLOR]

~Tier 19 Set Bonuses~

Item - Demon Hunter T19 Vengeance 2P Bonus: Soul Cleave costs 10 less Pain.

Item - Demon Hunter T19 Vengeance 4P Bonus: Soul Cleave reduces the remaining cooldown on Demon Spikes by 3 sec.

~Legendaries~

Cloak of Fel Flames
Runemaster's Pauldrons
The Defiler's Lost Vambraces
Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus
Fragment of the Betrayer's Prison
PH - Gain Magic Damage Reduction During Immo Aura
PH - Throw Glaive Increased Damage with Each Bounce

~Rotation~

Currently it looks something like this:
1.) Soul Cleave (when needed for healing or to avoid capping Pain, as available)
2.) Immolation Aura on cooldown (15 sec)
3.) Shear

We'll also want to use Infernal Strike, Throw Glaive, and Sigil of Flame as the situation demands, but not rotationally. Shear generates pain and LSFs so it pushes out other abilities that may do more damage in favor of maximizing defense. Fracture, Felblade, and Spirit Bomb give you a few more buttons to press through talents.

When to use Demon Spikes: Demon Spikes is our main preemptive defensive button, but it only works against physical attacks. You should know in advance what boss abilities are physical, and watch for them with boss timers, but generally speaking this should be used against the enemies' standard melee attacks to get its full effect. Look for frenzy or enrage affects (they usually come with the baddie turning red and growing), or debuffs which increase the damage your character takes and plan to use Demon Spikes to counter them. Generally, with its low Pain cost, any time something is melee'ing you, Demon Spikes is worth casting just to keep the cooldown cycling, but try to pick your moments for maximum affect.

When to use Soul Cleave: Basically there are five situations you will find yourself in:
High Health, Low Pain: Don't cast Soul Cleave, get more Pain.
High Health, High Pain: Cast Fracture if talented. Consider casting Soul Cleave, just so the Pain doesn't go to waste. Rejoice that life is wonderful.
Low Health, High Pain: Cast Soul Cleave. Cast it again. Stay alive.
Low Health, Low Pain: Cast Metamorphosis.
Low Health, Low Pain, No Meta: Oh god, Oh god, you're gonna die.

~Stats~

(Initial Impressions, subject to scaling and balancing, in no particular order)

Versatility: This is a solid stat for tanks. It could be particularly useful for us if it improves Shattered Soul's healing.

Mastery: Increases the effectiveness of our preemtive Active Mitigation button: Demon Spikes. This one will depend on encounter mechanics, but overall seems pretty good.

Haste: Demon Spike's Cooldown is reduced by Haste, Increasing its uptime. This will also increase the amount of Shears you can cast, increasing Pain Generation and Shattered Soul availability.

Crit: Crit turns into Parry now via the "Riposte" passive, giving it a good defensive value.

~Blue Info~

Will DH's GCD be 1 sec or 1.5 sec? Also are there any plans to alter any other classes GCD?
1.5 second base, reduced by haste (similar to most other non-energy melee). (WarcraftDevs)

For Vengeance Demon Hunters, what is the baseline proc chance for "Shear" to proc a soul fragment? Also what is the increased chance that the "Frail" debuff from " Spirit Bomb" will proc a soul fragment?
Currently, that chance is (4%, 12%, 25%, 40%, 60%, 80%, 90%, 100%, based on how many Shears since you got a soul) + (10% if Frail) , but that may change in tuning. (Celestalon)

[Imnick]

I am sort of imagining that Fel Blood will be the active mitigation ability, and that "15 minute cooldown" is just a typo.
I thought Blizzard said that DHs wouldn't really be about self healing but I also don't really care.

[Orloth]

Blizz didn't actually say much. A lot of what we have was speculation. I don't mind being dead wrong.

Still, Fel Blood seems like a cooldown type ability to me. Thinking on it, with good resource management and that cooldown, you'll be able to empty your Fury three times in a short window on whatever AM we possess. Even if that is just the Voidblade, that's a lot of healing.

Also of note: Death Strike has a heal as the base, it's Blood's Mastery that grants the Shield. We might see a similar interaction with Mastery or Passives that will change a bit.

[Feali]

I think we can expect A LOT of information tomorrow from the systems panel. (Yes, I am repeating myself.)

[Hitmonchan]

Actually, Hateful Strike uses some other resource 'Pain'. The others still use Fury though.

[Orloth]

Actually, Hateful Strike uses some other resource 'Pain'. The others still use Fury though.

Well that's interesting.... Resource gained from loosing health?

[Felancelan]

Well, the spec is called vengeance so a resource gained from taking damage makes sense, will be interesting to see if void blade is effected by resolve, as it is now (we should find out more in the panels today).

[Hitmonchan]

Friend of mine clicked on [Mastery: Inner Demon] (the Vengeance one) at that spec selection thing near the end of the demo; it said 'Increases Leech by 14%' .


Source

[Ooshraxa]

Yeah, after that "Presentation" of the Vengeance tank, I'd not get too attached to those abilities.
Sounds like they have no idea what they're going to do, if they can't even show the abilities from yesterday.

Le MASSIVE sigh. Legion feels REALLY unfinished. September launch seems realistic.

[Felancelan]

Well they said closed beta should be in a few weeks. By mid December the first there should be alot more info, then over 3-5 months we will have a few hundred different builds, then the launch. I think maybe some time around June will be the launch if I had to guess today.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

I wouldn't expect Vengeance to return. It seems like they are happy with Resolve currently, although I suppose they could simply change the model a third time in 4 years.

[Orloth]

Friend of mine clicked on [Mastery: Inner Demon] (the Vengeance one) at that spec selection thing near the end of the demo; it said 'Increases Leech by 14%' .

Well that's nearly useless for a tank. It might be good HPS depending on how it's tuned, but controlled burst heals is what will stop you from dying. Still, continues with the self healing vein.

- - - Updated - - -

I wouldn't expect Vengeance to return. It seems like they are happy with Resolve currently, although I suppose they could simply change the model a third time in 4 years.

Would you mind actually reading the thread?

[Feali]

I think we can expect A LOT of information tomorrow from the systems panel. (Yes, I am repeating myself.)

I guess I was wrong.

[Orloth]

I guess I was wrong.

Yeah, just watched it... that was amazingly disappointing. This is supposed to be playable in a few weeks?

[Imnick]

Maybe they want you to find out in a few weeks :P
They did have a lot to talk about on that panel, rather than detail what both DH specs do... but they also spent a lot of time covering things we'd already seen about DHs so I don't know.

[Orloth]

Maybe they want you to find out in a few weeks :P
They did have a lot to talk about on that panel, rather than detail what both DH specs do... but they also spent a lot of time covering things we'd already seen about DHs so I don't know.

DH will likely be the very last one, so.... Mark the 19th on your calanders, folks!

[Deleted]

What exactly do you mean by "AM"? This is an abbreviation I have never in my life heard before in regards to tanking or WoW in general, at least not in the context you're using it. Is it something new that I missed?

[Imnick]

What exactly do you mean by "AM"? This is an abbreviation I have never in my life heard before in regards to tanking or WoW in general. Is it something new that I missed?

Active Mitigation.
Spells like Shield Block or Death Strike or Shield of the Righteous.

[Deleted]

Active Mitigation.
Spells like Shield Block or Death Strike or Shield of the Righteous.

Ah shit.. Yea that makes sense. Honestly never heard of it been refereed to as "AM" before. Usually just called it mitigation. Thanks!

[Felancelan]

Yea but from what we can tell is only from the open tab we can see from the havoc pov. Even then they only had one row of talents (Blizz said they want to make talents more unique per spec, not sure how many of the havoc cross over to vengeance). We also only saw 1/2 the starting area assuming we still learn skills and passives I'm going to hold out on my dissapointment. With that said one of the havoc talents gave 100% dodge for one second which would be awsome if we they have synergy between defense and offense (for example warriors who when they party can use revenge).