Idea to counter split raiding

[Ahovv]

I love how when these types of issues are brought up people refuse to offer reasoning against adjustments. Instead, they claim "it's not a huge issue, only for the very top guilds" as if that's justification for Blizzard to ignore the consequences.

Protip: good video games shouldn't only focus on the majority. In fact, that's a surefire way to make a shitty game.

[jMerliN]

I don't understand why people discuss this?
Are you affected and dislike it ? Not like the top guilds are asking to remove split raiding. We enjoy the competition, we enjoy min-maxing and pushing it.

Odd when more than half of the guilds ranked above you say the opposite. Maybe it's mental delinquents like you who think farming heroic for dozens of hours on numerous alts you will never play again constitutes "good competition."

From what I can tell, you're definitely one of those guilds that'd stand to lose quite a few rankings if split runs were removed.

Please tell me how people only raiding heroic, normal or people who might eventually after weeks start to raid mythic are effected ?
If any guild that raids mythic and does not want to splitraid, they do not have to. How many guilds actually do alt runs ? Top 150 ? 200 maybe ?
Even if we take 250 that are only about 1,4 % of the guilds that have killed the first heroic boss. Acording to wowprogress this would not even be 50% of all guilds ranked there. So including normal guilds is a phenomen that exists for less than 0,7 % of all raiders. Hardly everyone...

Hey everyone, he's being intentionally dense and taking quotes out of context while touting claims that have been thoroughly explained and debunked in this very thread!

You're an idiot kid, go away.

Infracted - Wilderness

[Rtrain]

...Umm, no?

It wasn't problem for years, so why now? Or is it like with flying, ActiBlizzard said it is bad, so it became holy truth. Someone from ActiBlizzrad said that "split raiding" is bad, so it became holy truth.

In all the honesty, I have heard this term for the first time only a week ago.

It's been a problem since Wrath and limited attempt bosses, it just hasn't gotten out of hand until recently. Things like the removal of shared raid-lockouts and the constant pressure that trickles down the ladder. The biggest problem with split raids is the barrier to entry it creates for other guilds wanting to dabble into mythic. All of a sudden the bosses are tuned for a higher ilvl and lesser skilled guilds will have a much harder time. Both HFC and BRF were prime example of this. Getting rid of split raids would make it much easier to balance guilds not clearing weak one and mythic being more accessible. Personally, I'd much rather a more linear/targeted progression route.(I assume a lot of top players would as well)

The idea of "just find another guild" isn't an argument. This expansion has killed so many top end guilds that options are very limited now.

[slev36]

Are people really championing personal loot for all? That sounds horrendous. Why are you penalizing all guilds loot council systems when its only like the top 1% that split farming is even relevant for?

[Rtrain]

Are people really championing personal loot for all? That sounds horrendous. Why are you penalizing all guilds loot council systems when its only like the top 1% that split farming is even relevant for?

People are not championing the idea of personal loot... Even though for 99% of guilds the loot system doesn't matter... If you read the thread you'd understand why splits affect more then the "top 1%".

Realistically, changing to personal loot really only matters/hurts less then 1% of the population anyways...

[cFortyfive]

It's been a problem since Wrath and limited attempt bosses, it just hasn't gotten out of hand until recently. Things like the removal of shared raid-lockouts and the constant pressure that trickles down the ladder. The biggest problem with split raids is the barrier to entry it creates for other guilds wanting to dabble into mythic. All of a sudden the bosses are tuned for a higher ilvl and lesser skilled guilds will have a much harder time. Both HFC and BRF were prime example of this. Getting rid of split raids would make it much easier to balance guilds not clearing weak one and mythic being more accessible. Personally, I'd much rather a more linear/targeted progression route.(I assume a lot of top players would as well)

The idea of "just find another guild" isn't an argument. This expansion has killed so many top end guilds that options are very limited now.

Where exactly do you see your theory confirmed ? That brf kinda lacked a kargath ? Split raiding is useless for most guilds. They stick around in heroic long enough anyways to make it not matter. There are maybe 50 guilds tops that can actually make use of it and everyone below that would be better off to move their lazy ass to ptr and have better encounter preparation to avoid the first 10 wipes to people not even knowing all the boss mechanics.

[Nnogga]

Not like the top guilds are asking to remove split raiding. We enjoy the competition, we enjoy min-maxing and pushing it.
Please don't create a problem where none exists!

You do not speak for all top guilds and i certainly don't do either - but i can tell from the experience i made in Prime, New Horizon (to some extent) and Rapid Eye Movement and talking to members of other guilds: I and the vast majority of players i played with fucking hate split raids. It is a problem and it is very real and i would do 3 backflips instantly if blizzard said tomorrow that i do not have to level 5 characters at the start of the expansion. So much time goes down the drain gearing characters you do not want to play. So much time goes to waste planning and optimizing 5 splitraids with 150 characters in them - time better spend on preparing mythic progression or actually playing your main and having fun in the game. I remember the atmosphere in our last split raid in week 1 of HFC, no fun was had in that raid and it was a real struggle.

[Rtrain]

Where exactly do you see your theory confirmed ? That brf kinda lacked a kargath ? Split raiding is useless for most guilds. They stick around in heroic long enough anyways to make it not matter. There are maybe 50 guilds tops that can actually make use of it and everyone below that would be better off to move their lazy ass to ptr and have better encounter preparation to avoid the first 10 wipes to people not even knowing all the boss mechanics.

They're forced to stick in heroic for a long time because of the steep requirements of ilvl for mythic(which has increased overtime due to split and farming heroic multiple times a week). Look at the leap in difficulty even in Highmaul; Kargath a joke, twins was easy because it had a long enrage, and everything else ramped up really quickly. I'm not arguing for an easier instance, I'm asking for a linear rate of progression. Fights aren't usually hard anymore because of mechanic difficulty, they're hard because we didn't do the 10 splits we need for the ilvl requirement.

The sad part is the guilds that don't do splits, also don't usually have the luxury of class stacking for certain fights(which also helps with the ilevel requirement usually). Gear matters, especially with how powerful set bonuses and trinkets have been. I can't even imagine where the argument of "split raids don't benefit most guilds" can even come from. Where's the logic? If they did split raids they'd get further in mythic much quicker...

[cFortyfive]

They're forced to stick in heroic for a long time because of the steep requirements of ilvl for mythic(which has increased overtime due to split and farming heroic multiple times a week). Look at the leap in difficulty even in Highmaul; Kargath a joke, twins was easy because it had a long enrage, and everything else ramped up really quickly. I'm not arguing for an easier instance, I'm asking for a linear rate of progression. Fights aren't usually hard anymore because of mechanic difficulty, they're hard because we didn't do the 10 splits we need for the ilvl requirement.

The sad part is the guilds that don't do splits, also don't usually have the luxury of class stacking for certain fights(which also helps with the ilevel requirement usually). Gear matters, especially with how powerful set bonuses and trinkets have been. I can't even imagine where the argument of "split raids don't benefit most guilds" can even come from. Where's the logic? If they did split raids they'd get further in mythic much quicker...

Oh no shit with better gear they'd progress slightly faster ? Who the fuck would have thought that. Still anything but required all those guilds who progress in that pace already have way better gear anyways when actually somewhat decent guilds when they kill those bosses.
You honestly going to claim that all those shitter guilds took weeks to get to gorefiend and got stuck there because of the lack of split raids ? The amount of pathetic excuses knows no end. We didn't do any split raids in brf and still did fine. You were not stuck on council because you only had 718 ilvl.

[Rtrain]

Did fine huh? And how long did it take you to clear BRF? Prob months of farming mythic, because you didn't do heroic splits. Bosses became ridiculous towards the end. The tuning of blackhand for example, even the guilds doing a lot splits didn't have the ilevel for it, and that's when class stacking becomes even more important. Worse guilds obviously need more gear to kill bosses. Worse raid comps do to. Look how that chinese guild did in Highmaul thanks to having 8+ ilvls on every other guild.

You're looking at the small picture, not the big picture. Open your eyes. Don't think of single encounters, think of the entire instance as a whole. It's not hard to find the fights that you were grossly under-geared when attempting. Operator became so much easier after 1 more week of gear, so did maidens, and even pushing blackhand phases. Think about how those fights could of been tuned if they didn't expect some guilds to have 10+ higher ilevels.

I don't understand how anyone would actually want split raiding... Why do you want split raiding?

[Relapses]

I don't understand how anyone would actually want split raiding... Why do you want split raiding?

Some people like playing their alts. Some people like playing their alts competitively. Some people simply enjoy raiding and like the opportunity to learn encounters on an alt before doing it with their main. I raided in Heroic SoO on three separate toons in three separate 14/14H guilds. I realize I'm the acute minority, but I had fun with this. I dislike any solution for split raiding which negatively impacts the enjoyment I derive from playing my alts (even if all I'm doing is feeding gear to my guildies).

I personally don't think the problem is big enough to warrant an immediate solution.

[cFortyfive]

Did fine huh? And how long did it take you to clear BRF? Prob months of farming mythic, because you didn't do heroic splits. Bosses became ridiculous towards the end. The tuning of blackhand for example, even the guilds doing a lot splits didn't have the ilevel for it, and that's when class stacking becomes even more important. Worse guilds obviously need more gear to kill bosses. Worse raid comps do to. Look how that chinese guild did in Highmaul thanks to having 8+ ilvls on every other guild.

You're looking at the small picture, not the big picture. Open your eyes. Don't think of single encounters, think of the entire instance as a whole. It's not hard to find the fights that you were grossly under-geared when attempting. Operator became so much easier after 1 more week of gear, so did maidens, and even pushing blackhand phases. Think about how those fights could of been tuned if they didn't expect some guilds to have 10+ higher ilevels.

I don't understand how anyone would actually want split raiding... Why do you want split raiding?

We did perfectly fine given the shape the guild was in at that time thanks for asking.
I actually don't "want" splitraiding but in the end I don't care. That doesn't mean I find those "blizz pls get rid of split raiding because my world 98324 guild absolutely has to them otherwise we can't even kill the first boss " less pathetic.
Those encounters were perfectly fine tuned the fact that they aren't tuned to be dealt with by every peasant guild including my own in the first week doesn't actually change that. When did you reach blackhand to claim that you had a too low ilvl to deal with the encounter ? 695 was already way more than enough.
We didn't manage top 50 at that time but not for a second I'd make the lack of split raids responsible for that. We had more than enough gear when we turned up on blackhand - that we didn't with 692 was purely lack of skill, preparation and lack of the right players in key positions.

[Rtrain]

Some people like playing their alts. Some people like playing their alts competitively. Some people simply enjoy raiding and like the opportunity to learn encounters on an alt before doing it with their main. I raided in Heroic SoO on three separate toons in three separate 14/14H guilds. I realize I'm the acute minority, but I had fun with this. I dislike any solution for split raiding which negatively impacts the enjoyment I derive from playing my alts (even if all I'm doing is feeding gear to my guildies).

I personally don't think the problem is big enough to warrant an immediate solution.

I like playing alts. I like playing alts at a high level. There's been many times I've enjoyed playing my alt more then my main. There's even been times where I raided in multiple high end guilds at the same time. I don't like forcing people who don't enjoy playing alts, to play alts. I don't like the strain it puts into the competitive scene. It's not practice, it's more like being forced to play a completely different game for some.

We did perfectly fine given the shape the guild was in at that time thanks for asking.
I actually don't "want" splitraiding but in the end I don't care. That doesn't mean I find those "blizz pls get rid of split raiding because my world 98324 guild absolutely has to them otherwise we can't even kill the first boss " less pathetic.
Those encounters were perfectly fine tuned the fact that they aren't tuned to be dealt with by every peasant guild including my own in the first week doesn't actually change that. When did you reach blackhand to claim that you had a too low ilvl to deal with the encounter ? 695 was already way more than enough.
We didn't manage top 50 at that time but not for a second I'd make the lack of split raids responsible for that. We had more than enough gear when we turned up on blackhand - that we didn't with 692 was purely lack of skill, preparation and lack of the right players in key positions.

We killed blast furnace US ~25th. I don't remember our ilvl but it was pretty low, but pushing that first phase was miserable. We had similar problems with Operator and Iron Maidens(we were us 20th or better until then). I remember having to relearn Operator fight also after the demonology and fire mage nerf. We had quite a few players without 4 piece and our damage meters definitely reflected that. We didn't do splits, not sure if it would of helped, but some bosses felt impossible without the extra ilvl boost and not having players in 4 piece.

We also had a lot of attendance problems, the guild kind of felt apart after we killed blackhand. Every guild I know of had huge problems with their roster through-out this expansion. I can't actually think of a single US guild that's been in good shape. What do you blame for this? Honest question.

[Darus]

I thought this thread was about ideas and not a discussion if its warranted or not. I love hardcore raiding but I would prefer investing my time on my main and outside of the game over getting characters ready to funnel gear. Im just throwing my thing out there but I look forward to reading more interesting suggestions from the rest of you.

Things I'd like to avoid:
*With personal loot raiders in hardcore guild would be required to play several characters of the same class and play the one that got the most gear.
*Account wide locks would result in raiders having to play several accounts for their alts.
*Sharing heroic and mythic as raid locks could leave choices guilds shouldnt have to make when it comes to spending time progressing or doing splitruns.

One way to do it
I think the solution lies in limiting how powerfull loot is inside the mythic raids, that could be done similar to how its been done in challange modes and PvP in Warlords (disabling setbonuses is a usefull cm feat aswell). One alternative is scaling down of gear when you enter the mythic raid and the only way to obtain higher item level is with drops from that same raid instance and difficulty.

Shitty example
what item levels of things could look like if it was done in early Warlords through highmaul:
Mythic squish: 645 (setbonuses from normal/hc disabled)
normal/hc drops: 655/670
mythic drops: 685

So in what way could this impact raiding negatively?
The goal is to make alts options for characters to raid with and not characters that are enforced to funnel gear with. Now the issue you might get when theres a squish is that theres a possibility to begin a tier with the expectation of class stacking when the ilvl between mains and alts would be nearly the same. There can be loot related measures in place to make sure that you dont want to switch too many characters as you progress. It should be possible to swap a few alts in but it should make your raid less powerfull in exchange.

What about the guilds that need items from heroic in order to progress mythic?
There is the possibility to gate an ilvl squish, either in a fashion of lifting it completely after X amount of resets or if its gradually lifting it.

Why do we have mythic?
Keep in mind that this difficulty is tuned specially for the hardcore guilds, when it comes to lfr, normal and heroic that content is tuned for another crowd of raiders. Making restrictions that only effect mythic is the most fair way that doesnt impact players outside, of course more players should find it accessible gradually through gating and nerfs. It is a heavy burden for many that enjoy hardcore raiding that they have to go through a very long process of funneling gear every tier and its also a (very) common reason for why people decide to discontinue.

And be nice guys, too many haters out there =(

[cFortyfive]

We killed blast furnace US ~25th. I don't remember our ilvl but it was pretty low, but pushing that first phase was miserable. We had similar problems with Operator and Iron Maidens(we were us 20th or better until then). I remember having to relearn Operator fight also after the demonology and fire mage nerf. We had quite a few players without 4 piece and our damage meters definitely reflected that. We didn't do splits, not sure if it would of helped, but some bosses felt impossible without the extra ilvl boost and not having players in 4 piece.

We also had a lot of attendance problems, the guild kind of felt apart after we killed blackhand. Every guild I know of had huge problems with their roster through-out this expansion. I can't actually think of a single US guild that's been in good shape. What do you blame for this? Honest question.

Subscriptions overall dropping a ton, arguably a lot more attractive titles for people with a competitive side, the addon overall being not very attractive, content being harder than mop, people having for whatever reason seemingly each addon higher expectations but less skill, yes of course even unreasonable shit like split farming, I could go on I suppose.
So what are you even arguing ? Even an us 25 kill has literally nothing to do with "guilds dabbling in mythic" to quote you from earlier. Those guilds spend so much longer farming for the lack of capability to kill bosses they'll have way higher than required ilvl anyways and I don't see the problem with that. Fact was you could kill the first bosses easily even without a split raid but not everyone was capable for obvious reasons. And at that point you were reaching Blast furnace your raid still very likely already had 690+ and very little actual use for heroic loot except for maybe the unlucky bastard who didn't get a trinket yet.

[Deliverer]

My guild raid only 9 hours a week and we got 9/10M before HFC and it was rly a struggle to try out hellfire assault in ~700 ilvl even less for some new recruits. Took us at least a couple more heroic clears to make the dps check. Our mythic BRF gear that took months to acquire was garbage because with 710 ilvl 4 set+ trinkets your dps ramp up at least 30% and the fight is tuned around being heroic HFC geared rather than mythic BRF.
I don't remember this to be an issue before wod and I'm pretty sure hardcore guilds went into soo progress in tot Heroic gear fully upgraded.
It's either they scale down the ilvls and make mythic BRF and heroic HFC have the same ilvls or enable valor upgrade at the end of a tier so you can get those extra ilvls on your gear to get ready for the next tier.
A mythic BRF raider should be able to get into mythic with that gear because mythic is his difficulty.
You still want to try get those important trinkets and 4 set for some classes but the majority of mythic guilds that don't raid 7 days a week would not feel forced to do split runs.
Having set bonuses went from being a nice bonus to be a requirement much like diablo 3 is now.

[Fazer]

I kinda like the idea of having Valor cancel the need for splits.

First tier of the expansion: Mythic opens 3-4 weeks after normal + Heroics so everybody can get the gear needed for it or alternatively open Mythic at the same time as other raids. Give LFR the same loot table with other raids (on different color) since it's not needed anymore to farm that in order to progress Mythic. Later one doesn't affect splits that much, but it makes split raiding a risk, because you could lose progression due to spending time in HC (Top guilds are going to be in that instance 24/7 whatever the system would be, you really cannot counter that).

Make first tier items valor upgradeable on a minipatch after the tier has been on progress for a while (most top guilds killed endboss), so that when next Mythic tier opens, there is no need to farm HC because the upgraded Mythic gear would be as good as the non upgradeable HC gear from the new instance.

I think there is no clear solution to this, but this would also make tiers more interesting and older content (Mythic previous tier) not irrelevant, since you can still upgrade that gear to be as good as HC gear from the new instance.