[Spoiler] Background on Elemental Shaman artifact

[Deleted]

He didn't say "fragments" of the spirits, he said spirits. Meaning that each elemental is a distinct elemental spirit in raw physical form--the state of being is the only difference. In turn that means that an elemental spirit that is not an elemental is just in a different state of existence, NOT a separate being entirely.

What you say about them being fragments of a greater overarching spirit doesn't really make sense with the rest of what we know--it's contradictory. If the elementals and other spirits are fragments of the supposed greater aspect spirit of each element then that means each greater aspect spirit is also a fragment. You can't have fragments of something that is whole. Are shamans supposedly communing with a part of every single fragment (in spirit and elemental form) without them knowing it when they draw from the greater aspect?

In that case, even beyond that it makes less sense because it contradicts the very core of the idea of shamanism. Shamans are supposed to interact with the spirits of the land. If a piece of the world is capable of being killed and its spirit destroyed then that means a part of the greater aspect spirit would be weakened as well as every shaman who would draw upon the power that piece of the living spiritual universe would contribute. It makes no sense. Each spirit has always been considered its own element. That would mean even worse things about the lore otherwise--Does everything that has a spirit have unknowing compliance with a greater whole across the universe that they are a fragment of? It's silly to think about.

Not that I think it's really your fault. It's WoW lore. None of it really makes sense in the greater scheme of things because they just throw ideas together to make things that sound cool in the story. Then they retcon and create new lore to fix the plotholes.

He's still right, since Metzen only talked about Spirits attaining a physical form and becoming Elementals, while the Spirit is still their core.

What Lokann is talking about are the Elements -- and it makes more and more sense if you consider how chaotic Elementals are (Shaman are "binding" them throught their wrist buckles) and where they're coming from. Elementals and their Lords werent imprisioned for no reason.

Shaman also dont have talents or abilities which lean on the Elemental Lords (the highest ranking Elementals, if your theory would be true). Instead we've simple ones, leaned on Elements - unlike Death Knights level 100 talents, for example.

Short: Shaman talk to the Elements.

[Wildmoon]

I don't think you understand what I meant. The point is how does elemental spirits attain individuality when they are part of overarching spirits? Metzen said when spirits attain physical form they become elemental such as we see as mobs in WoW. If there are many elementals out there, it should mean that there are many spirits out there. It begs the question if the idea that there are overarching spirits is true or not.

The issue about Thrall vs Garrosh was that if Garrosh could have his shamans locking away spirits from miles around and shutting down Thrall, then how does this work with the idea that there are overarching spirits? Why was Thrall weakened by it when the source of his power are overarching spirits? or the source of his power is spirits in the sense that there are many many spirits out there. When they choose to take form then they become elemental.

Wait how does that even contradict what I said? I said the Spirits are the 'parents' of the elementals. Metzen says fragments of the Spirit, when given physical form, become elementals. I'm not seeing the contradiction.

As for the other thing, desecrated ground has been in the lore for a long time. The Legion for example sucks all life out of the soil they thread on, torturing the Elements and essentially making the 'dead' ground essentially useless to shaman. The main mantra of shamanism is 'Everything that is, is alive.' Through that bond with living things, a shaman can influence the physical world... as long as it's alive.

Dead ground is by definition not alive, and as such would be essentially useless to a shaman... but Garrosh failed anyhow. Thrall still drew enough power to escape whatever sha goop it was that Garrosh tossed at him and charge him.

There's nothing about "fragments" in what Metzen said. He just said that when spirits attain physical form they become elemental which implied that there are many spirits out there because there are lots of elementals.

I am just questioning the philosophy behind Shamanism that appeared in Lord of the Clan novel.

[Deleted]

Same thing as holy vs. unholy ground. You cant explain or dig much further without proper explaination by CDevs.

[Manabomb]

Nope. Mostly because the Elemental Planes are not the Elements. Shaman (primarily) speak to the Elements, not elementals.

Thus yes, titans and arcane are still too filthy to mix with my shamanism.

So you're saying Elements=/=Elementals?... Even though the class summons multiple elementals that literally do their bidding in some form of contract or gained mutual trust?...

... Yeah I'm calling bullshit.

[Pantelija]

I am just questioning the philosophy behind Shamanism that appeared in Lord of the Clan novel.

Lord of the Clan novel was created by someone who didnt even play Warcraft games nor knew important things about warcraft lore so dont take anything from it seriously.

[Kralljin]

Lord of the Clan novel was created by someone who didnt even play Warcraft games nor knew important things about warcraft lore

Golden plays WoW as far as i know.

Even if she was supposed to play the current Warcraft Game (Warcraft 3) at the time she wrote the book, do you think it would have changed it much?

Was there so much shaman lore in Warcraft 3 that this book doesn't make any sense?

Besides, i am quite certain that Blizzard gave their approval about any new lore / facts added by the book, they don't just throw out a book on the market without proof reading it.

so dont take anything from it seriously.

The book is still canon, whether you like it or not.

[dippinsawse]

Golden plays WoW as far as i know.

Even if she was supposed to play the current Warcraft Game (Warcraft 3) at the time she wrote the book, do you think it would have changed it much?

Was there so much shaman lore in Warcraft 3 that this book doesn't make any sense?

Besides, i am quite certain that Blizzard gave their approval about any new lore / facts added by the book, they don't just throw out a book on the market without proof reading it.



The book is still canon, whether you like it or not.

But that doesn't mean much with Blizzard. Whether they agreed with it at the time or not is almost pointless. They are notorious for retconning things or otherwise not seeing the plot holes and lore problems created by the various sources of storytelling they've used. Unless there is something terribly glaring with established lore in a second party book they are licensing they are not going to be thorough with clearing up issues in said book. They only care so far as it conflicts or diminishes the story they currently want to tell. A book written in the times of WC3 would not present many issues for them to truly understand the implications of when they themselves still only had very generic and basic concepts laid out for the lore.

Either way the concepts are so vague and under explained no matter what your source is. I doubt blizzard really even understands themselves what their own vision of shamanism is in the lore. Especially when that pertains to deep, under-explored aspects like what the elements and spirits are in terms of their relation to the universe, elementals, and shamans.

[Kralljin]

But that doesn't mean much with Blizzard. Whether they agreed with it at the time or not is almost pointless. They are notorious for retconning things or otherwise not seeing the plot holes and lore problems created by the various sources of storytelling they've used.

Which still doesn't change the fact that the book remains canon.

Pretty much all Warcraft books under Blizzard license are canon until Blizzards decides to declare them non canon, until then you have to deal with them.

If you're certain that Blizzard retcons everything left and right, then it's pointless to discuss anything regarding lore, because you can end any discussion by saying "Well, Blizzard might retcon that, so forget about it!".

Either way the concepts are so vague and under explained no matter what your source is. I doubt blizzard really even understands themselves what their own vision of shamanism is in the lore.

Formulating clear cut rules is something that might haunt you later when it comes to fantasy writing.