Casual PVP in Legion. The elephant in the room.

[Deleted]

So there is this big pink elephant in room and no one wants to talk about it.

Casual PVP.

Aka duels, general 1v1, wpvp and random bgs. Yes, I'm aware many will say "boohoo, duels and wpvp don't matter, blah blah blah, only real pvp is 3v3, blah blah blah". Well a lot of people, dare I say the majority of players, are actually pretty casual pvp-ers who focus mainly on PVE or...focus on nothing in particular. And these people don't give a rat's ass about ratings or arena in general.

I'm one of these people. I put a lot of emphasis on 1v1 despite knowing the fact that it's not balanced and never will be balanced, and I always play dps classes that can handle 1v1 situations very well, even though I mostly do raiding.

Now here comes the problem.

There are going to be quite a lot of changes in Legion like, and this is all from blues, I didn't make anything up, some serious pruning of self defenses of the dps specs.
*we KNOW that dks will lose Death Syphon which is a pretty big deal when it comes to their survivability.
*we KNOW dps demon hunters come with no self heals whatsoever.
*pretty sure I heard mages lose their Ice Block heals, making them also have no heals whatsoever and only rely on ice barrier (dispelable, lol) for defenses.

Basically, imo, only hybrids like ret paladins, shadow priests, balance druids etc will be retaining their self heals.

It seems pure dps specs will be losing a lot of their defenses, probably because the idea is for them to depend on heals in 3v3, and Blizzard doesn't really care about non-arena pvp.

Also, from other blues, tank damage is going to be buffed to be comparable with that of dps specs. Also, at the same time, also from blues, tank HP is going to be double and even nearing triple that of a dps spec. Seriously? So what we have here is basically a dps with double the HP of that a pure dps. Ok, that sounds...worrying if you're the pure dps and have to face a tank in 1v1.

Also from blues, healer damage is going to be buffed, not at the same level of dps specs but will still be quite high. Disc priest will actually be a dps-healer spec that dps-es like an actual dps spec but also has heals that drop as he dps-es. Considering that already healing specs are pretty immortal in 1v1 situations and some can even go 1v2 and beat them both right now on live (disc priest, shockadin), them getting dps that is going to be almost the same as a dps spec's...ouch.

So the way things are looking right now, it seems to me that healers and tanks will have a large and decisive advantage in 1v1 situations against any dps spec and also against hybrids, and not really play a game of attrition when their own damage is pretty much the same as the pure dps-ers'.

Seems to me that quite a lot of classes and specs will be taking a kick to the teeth when it comes to solo pvp performance, while others may find themselves going from zeros to heroes in 1v1, as tanks and healers become live lords and pure dps-ers become glass cannons.

If I were you, I would prepare to choose a tank or healer spec for wpvp, because apparently dps specs are going to be a poor choice for that.

[Zaxan]

I didn't read it all, but a lot of this does sound like speculation to me.

Some things are being changed yes, and classes that don't need heals are losing them, yes. But that doesn't mean DPS classes are going out the window.

Legion posts are moot at this point.

[Snegovik]

I didn't read it all, but a lot of this does sound like speculation to me.

Some things are being changed yes, and classes that don't need heals are losing them, yes. But that doesn't mean DPS classes are going out the window.

Legion posts are moot at this point.

Sup Mate, My Main is Ret, already on live our survival is not great (not counting LOH) in wpvp/duels, in Legion we lost our instant heals, we only have 1.5-2 sec castable one, and good players wont let u cast those unless you are bubbled. Also shammies,droods,monk dps specs maintain their hard cast heals (unless i am mistaken) in legion as well as shadow,ret. Also locks/warriors/rogues main their self heals as well (if you look at fury warrior, they got some nice buffed self healing abilities), hunters not sure, but i bet there will be a way hunters will be able to heal as well. DK will be tanky and able to take hits 100% positive, since they lack mobility so i am sure Blizzard will design them like they are now on live hard hitting/slow moving tanks with good survival. DH: too early to say, that class is not complete, and DH do have self heals atm 100% leech in Demon form. So i woudnt be worrying to much.

[Tyrannica]

There are going to be quite a lot of changes in Legion like, and this is all from blues, I didn't make anything up, some serious pruning of self defenses of the dps specs.
*we KNOW that dks will lose Death Syphon which is a pretty big deal when it comes to their survivability.
*we KNOW dps demon hunters come with no self heals whatsoever.
*pretty sure I heard mages lose their Ice Block heals, making them also have no heals whatsoever and only rely on ice barrier (dispelable, lol) for defenses.

Basically, imo, only hybrids like ret paladins, shadow priests, balance druids etc will be retaining their self heals.

You mean losing death syphon is more of a problem for only frost dks? I do not miss it much with unholy. If you do it right people will die pretty quickly in duels. Of course it still sucks to lose it, i liked this ability a lot. Especially on fresh dks in some lvl60/70pvp, you could 2 shot people and gain full health. Not sure if its still the case, though.

So it seems i just stick to my shadow priest? Very good. Plays really smooth and simple right now, problem just is voidform in legion will make his playstyle too much PvE perhaps?

It seems pure dps specs will be losing a lot of their defenses, probably because the idea is for them to depend on heals in 3v3, and Blizzard doesn't really care about non-arena pvp.

I am pretty sure Blizzard does not care about any pvp. 3vs3 is as unbalanced as the rest of the pvp we got. You see always the same combs dominating.

Also, from other blues, tank damage is going to be buffed to be comparable with that of dps specs. Also, at the same time, also from blues, tank HP is going to be double and even nearing triple that of a dps spec. Seriously? So what we have here is basically a dps with double the HP of that a pure dps. Ok, that sounds...worrying if you're the pure dps and have to face a tank in 1v1.

it was fun to troll people early in cata with a blood dk in x vs more when this shit was new. Not sure about doing it right now or in legion. Changes in the blood spec sound more interesting so far, though.
Blizzard always gives a tank spec more priority in pve, and perhaps now in pvp as well when they really do make it viable again. In duels the advantage is clear, too, while lame, though. Say bye bye to frost and unholy.

Also from blues, healer damage is going to be buffed, not at the same level of dps specs but will still be quite high. Disc priest will actually be a dps-healer spec that dps-es like an actual dps spec but also has heals that drop as he dps-es. Considering that already healing specs are pretty immortal in 1v1 situations and some can even go 1v2 and beat them both right now on live (disc priest, shockadin), them getting dps that is going to be almost the same as a dps spec's...ouch.

well, discs are OP in non rated pvp, duels and wpvp right now. Nothing should actually change, except they might get godhood now in those categories, come legion.

If I were you, I would prepare to choose a tank or healer spec for wpvp, because apparently dps specs are going to be a poor choice for that.

I only need to activate my druid who played all specs in panda arenas and rbgs. Stealth healer, stealth melee+offheals/stealth caster+offheals(for zerging), stealth bear tank+offheals and sweet candy instant flightform.

We should be all druids anyways no matter what the content is, but especially in wpvp. A deathproof class at it.

[Deleted]

Unholy dk's will get a 90% shield wall on 1 min cd, necrotic strike heal absorbs, a buffed death strike which costs runic power(!), and our rune weapon can heal more than twice as much (allthough it sucks that it's random procc), we can pvp talent that spell crits only do dot damage on us. I'm stoked to play unholy again. We'll be moving fortresses and a good shield wall and necrotic strike is something I wanted so badly. Not to mention our artifact is quite epic!

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But there are concerns, but no way of knowing them until PvP is available on beta

[ComputerNerd]

The open nature of world pvp/duels makes them impossible to balance.
That is THE reason why they don't receive serious balance passes which are utterly pointless due to its open nature.

[Puzzony]

From i've seen so far in Alpha, good luck 1v1 against a blood dk, they are borderline retarded at the moment in both pve and 1v1 duels. For me, potential reroll candidate from my ret after 6 years.

[Snegovik]

From i've seen so far in Alpha, good luck 1v1 against a blood dk, they are borderline retarded at the moment in both pve and 1v1 duels. For me, potential reroll candidate from my ret after 6 years.

Dude no! do not join the Dark Side!

[DenniZ]

They cant balance the game on 1vs1 dualling. That would be a terrible idea.

[Tijuana]

So there is this big pink elephant in room and no one wants to talk about it.

Casual PVP.

Aka duels, general 1v1, wpvp and random bgs. Yes, I'm aware many will say "boohoo, duels and wpvp don't matter, blah blah blah, only real pvp is 3v3, blah blah blah". Well a lot of people, dare I say the majority of players, are actually pretty casual pvp-ers who focus mainly on PVE or...focus on nothing in particular. And these people don't give a rat's ass about ratings or arena in general.

I'm one of these people. I put a lot of emphasis on 1v1 despite knowing the fact that it's not balanced and never will be balanced, and I always play dps classes that can handle 1v1 situations very well, even though I mostly do raiding.

Now here comes the problem.

There are going to be quite a lot of changes in Legion like, and this is all from blues, I didn't make anything up, some serious pruning of self defenses of the dps specs.
*we KNOW that dks will lose Death Syphon which is a pretty big deal when it comes to their survivability.
*we KNOW dps demon hunters come with no self heals whatsoever.
*pretty sure I heard mages lose their Ice Block heals, making them also have no heals whatsoever and only rely on ice barrier (dispelable, lol) for defenses.

Basically, imo, only hybrids like ret paladins, shadow priests, balance druids etc will be retaining their self heals.

It seems pure dps specs will be losing a lot of their defenses, probably because the idea is for them to depend on heals in 3v3, and Blizzard doesn't really care about non-arena pvp.

Also, from other blues, tank damage is going to be buffed to be comparable with that of dps specs. Also, at the same time, also from blues, tank HP is going to be double and even nearing triple that of a dps spec. Seriously? So what we have here is basically a dps with double the HP of that a pure dps. Ok, that sounds...worrying if you're the pure dps and have to face a tank in 1v1.

Also from blues, healer damage is going to be buffed, not at the same level of dps specs but will still be quite high. Disc priest will actually be a dps-healer spec that dps-es like an actual dps spec but also has heals that drop as he dps-es. Considering that already healing specs are pretty immortal in 1v1 situations and some can even go 1v2 and beat them both right now on live (disc priest, shockadin), them getting dps that is going to be almost the same as a dps spec's...ouch.

So the way things are looking right now, it seems to me that healers and tanks will have a large and decisive advantage in 1v1 situations against any dps spec and also against hybrids, and not really play a game of attrition when their own damage is pretty much the same as the pure dps-ers'.

Seems to me that quite a lot of classes and specs will be taking a kick to the teeth when it comes to solo pvp performance, while others may find themselves going from zeros to heroes in 1v1, as tanks and healers become live lords and pure dps-ers become glass cannons.

If I were you, I would prepare to choose a tank or healer spec for wpvp, because apparently dps specs are going to be a poor choice for that.

TL;DR

/10chars

[Mukor]

Note that nothing is tuned yet. I was in dalaran sewers fighting 3 rogues in the alpha i was 105 they were 100, 102 and 108. Killed them all because our damage is crazy and i never went below 30 maelstrom so was able to heal to full after their kidneys DRd.

As enhancement shaman.

[Deleted]

It is my guess too that healers and tanks will completely dominant in duels. From what is known both healers and tanks will do a lot more damage. Healers are already almost unkillable on live in 1v1, but they can rarely kill someone by themselves in exchange for that. Tanks have that big damage malus currently which is what prevents them from already being the kings of dueling. In Legion tanks will have higher survivability than DDs again and their damage will probably be higher compared to live.

[Deleted]

It is my guess too that healers and tanks will completely dominant in duels. From what is known both healers and tanks will do a lot more damage. Healers are already almost unkillable on live in 1v1, but they can rarely kill someone by themselves in exchange for that. Tanks have that big damage malus currently which is what prevents them from already being the kings of dueling. In Legion tanks will have higher survivability than DDs again and their damage will probably be higher compared to live.

On live right now, discipline priests and holy paladins built for damage with Holy Shock, have no issues killing any dps in 1v1 and quite fast. They're really insane in 1v1. These guys do a shit ton of damage for a healer spec.

When it comes to tanks, you got tanks that do very little damage (guardian druid, brewmaster monk and protection paladin) and tanks that do pretty big damage for tank spec (protection warrior and blood dk).

If this accentuates in Legion, then tanks and healers will be kings of 1v1 and wpvp simply because they do as much damage as a dps while at the same time being very resilient to damage. And also because dps specs have being their self heals toned down or lost (mage, lol).

Even now I'm gearing a disc priest in Ashran.

[Snegovik]

On live right now, discipline priests and holy paladins built for damage with Holy Shock, have no issues killing any dps in 1v1 and quite fast. They're really insane in 1v1. These guys do a shit ton of damage for a healer spec.

When it comes to tanks, you got tanks that do very little damage (guardian druid, brewmaster monk and protection paladin) and tanks that do pretty big damage for tank spec (protection warrior and blood dk).

If this accentuates in Legion, then tanks and healers will be kings of 1v1 and wpvp simply because they do as much damage as a dps while at the same time being very resilient to damage. And also because dps specs have being their self heals toned down or lost (mage, lol).

Even now I'm gearing a disc priest in Ashran.

Hpal/Disc will never kill a decent enh/ret/boomy for sure, and pretty sure shadow/feral/dks/WW will not die or will take a very very long time to do so.
In legion tanks (blood dk/prot pally especially) look very good in 1v1 pvp situation

[Tyrannica]

Hpal/Disc will never kill a decent enh/ret/boomy for sure, and pretty sure shadow/feral/dks/WW will not die or will take a very very long time to do so.
In legion tanks (blood dk/prot pally especially) look very good in 1v1 pvp situation

dks are among the best duel classes they will never lose to anything, they can deal with ferals too, just not in frost spec.

Shadow can lose to a decent disc, he can ran out of mana during a fight if he must spam flashheal. it happens and it happens very slowly, the disc however won't run out of mana. thats just a casual duel with the most used pvp talents. Against a disc i would use that 1 min pet that gives back mana on hit, so the disc will never win.

But its way to tedious to do duels against decent discs, i think the best bet is a dk unholy or frost and the dispel glyph to remove his absorb shields, or an enhancer.

Are warriors any good in anything in duels? prot should work out, but the other 2 specs should quickly perish.

[Deleted]

Are warriors any good in anything in duels? prot should work out, but the other 2 specs should quickly perish.

Protection is really good at duels. Full prot, not gladiator stance. However, good kiters can kick their buts. Survival hunter most definitely, and to some lesser degree frost mage, but it really depends on how the prot is specced as bladestorm works as extra root breaker and to avoid binding shot, whereas many prots just go with Avatar which only works to break one root.

The other specs are shit at pvp when unsupported.

[Snegovik]

dks are among the best duel classes they will never lose to anything, they can deal with ferals too, just not in frost spec.

Shadow can lose to a decent disc, he can ran out of mana during a fight if he must spam flashheal. it happens and it happens very slowly, the disc however won't run out of mana. thats just a casual duel with the most used pvp talents. Against a disc i would use that 1 min pet that gives back mana on hit, so the disc will never win.

But its way to tedious to do duels against decent discs, i think the best bet is a dk unholy or frost and the dispel glyph to remove his absorb shields, or an enhancer.

Are warriors any good in anything in duels? prot should work out, but the other 2 specs should quickly perish.

Enh is also very very good vs Disc duels, spam purge, heals from auto attacks/wolves/totems, my alt is enh and i eat casters alive, gotta love purge/range kick. Yeh if shadow goes OOM he will lose for sure, unless he drinks behind pillar or w/e, but eventually shadow loses but it does take very long time, as mentioned above =).

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Protection is really good at duels. Full prot, not gladiator stance. However, good kiters can kick their buts. Survival hunter most definitely, and to some lesser degree frost mage, but it really depends on how the prot is specced as bladestorm works as extra root breaker and to avoid binding shot, whereas many prots just go with Avatar which only works to break one root.

The other specs are shit at pvp when unsupported.

Yeh full prot (not glad stance) are very very strong in 1v1 duel to Shield Slam dispelling magic buff, i believe they counter every melee but Ret and maybe DKs (not sure about DKs, since i dont play one, and never saw a good duel between DK/Prot War). Ret bashes on Prot War's due to the fact that Ret's Finishes all magic and most of our Offensive abilities are range (only 1 is melee, if you speced into FV)

[morislayer]

All I have actually seen is Swifty doing some duels in Legion that were just stupid.

That being said, I highly doubt they have even started balancing PVP 100-110. Remember ilvl will change in duels / wpvp, etc. It's quite easy for them to disable the stam multiplier of tank specs in pvp now too. As for healers, I would expect the same on their deeps in pvp, nerfed to the ground, baby!

People are not lvl 110, never mind in Legion S1 gear. It really is too early be concerned. Also remember rando's are going to be a big source of prestige in Legion, so you will get the same treatment as arena and RBG'ers.

[Deleted]

Considering that 1/3 of the specs are not even playable yet, I doubt they started to balance things.

However, healers and tanks have allways had the advantage in duels or 1on1 situations. This will not be any different from now.
A Healer is basically balanced to be able to outheal 2 DPS classes smacking on him due to 3v3 arenas. I don't like it because in my opinion healers are way to dominant in this game, but that's how blizzard has done it since BC and is one of the fundamental systems for arena pvp.

Tanks however will be different. Blizzard has allready mentioned they want to bring tanks into pvp without them being frustrating to other players. From what I have seen based on tank pvp Talents, they will mainly focus on cc and disrubtion. Rather than on extrem surviveability or damage.
Tanks in pvp will probably be some kind of a support class, but not an unkillable juggernaught.


Anyway I really doubt that things will be so different from now concerning overall healer / dps balance.
Hybrids will have healing capabilities, yes, but t a cost of something. Compared to pure DPS classes they have way less escape or cc abilities. Their design is to heal up the damage rather than to escape or mignate it.

[Deleted]

Considering that 1/3 of the specs are not even playable yet, I doubt they started to balance things.

However, healers and tanks have allways had the advantage in duels or 1on1 situations. This will not be any different from now.
A Healer is basically balanced to be able to outheal 2 DPS classes smacking on him due to 3v3 arenas. I don't like it because in my opinion healers are way to dominant in this game, but that's how blizzard has done it since BC and is one of the fundamental systems for arena pvp.

Tanks however will be different. Blizzard has allready mentioned they want to bring tanks into pvp without them being frustrating to other players. From what I have seen based on tank pvp Talents, they will mainly focus on cc and disrubtion. Rather than on extrem surviveability or damage.
Tanks in pvp will probably be some kind of a support class, but not an unkillable juggernaught.


Anyway I really doubt that things will be so different from now concerning overall healer / dps balance.
Hybrids will have healing capabilities, yes, but t a cost of something. Compared to pure DPS classes they have way less escape or cc abilities. Their design is to heal up the damage rather than to escape or mignate it.

Healers are indeed meant to survive against 2 or 3 but they aren't meant to kill even one of these guys, otherwise there would be no point in playing a dps spec in pvp. And only 2 tank specs in the game right now can kill people: prot warrior and blood dk. One is pretty squishy, and the other has the mobility of a glacier.

This is balanced by the fact that healers and tanks can take it but they can't dish it. In Legion they will be able to take it AND dish it, which raises the question on why should anyone play a dps spec for non-arena pvp, like duels and wpvp, when tanks and healers will be so much better at that.