Women and the draft

[Deleted]

Name calling is the best response you can come up with? Of course modern war can't be fought exclusively by drones - you need people in many roles. But soldiers on the front lines is becoming an increasingly outdated concept that still persists mostly because of ethical dilemmas and because the decision makers are old men.

For example, the technology to make UCAVs completely autonomous already exists and would quite likely perform better than piloted drones due to lack of lag and human error. The biggest reason it's not used is that it's too "unimaginable" to some backward-thinking people without having ethical debates about it.

What insurmountable technological barrier stops us from making 1000 small drones size of palm with a camera and a small explosive charge each, controlled by centralized algorithm from a nearby UCAV? Self-learning algorithms that we already have are ALREADY better at pattern recognition than humans. That means higher precision, better friend/foe recognition, etc.

Truth is, right now a piece of meat on the front line is the weakest link, the one thing holding military development back. Tanks without pilots could carry heavier armor, more fuel, more ammo. Planes without pilot could increase maneuverability dramatically, since they are no longer limited in g-forces applied to the weak link. But instead of working to eliminate the weakest link, we keep pretending like a war without human soldiers is "unthinkable" because we need our heroes I guess.

Until it throws a track, a weapon jams or any of the myriad of things that are common in tanks today, things which need a crew to fix.

[Independent voter]

Wikipedia says we have 59,764,677 able bodied men fit for military service. So we could double that number, 120 million. The fatties could do the sit down work.

[BuckSparkles]

The whole support the soldiers not the war thing you are espousing is very strange to me. Of course you support the needs of the soldiers being abused by the government in sending them to unjust wars. I do too. That doesn't mean I have to support whatever lunatic military engagement they're involved in.

The point is that if you are sending 10 dudes to do something, they better have ALL the resources required if they need it. Armored transports, air support, you name it. If a government is going to send our fighting forces in, they need to not gimp them in any shape way or form, and should always be ready to back them up however they need.

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I find it funny how you still focus on the measly physical differences between men and women, when we have technology that can vastly outperform both genders.

You will always need ground soldiers. Can't win a war from the sky alone. Yes, autonomous machines in some areas certainly would be nifty, but you need people.

And those ground soldiers need to be men.

[Vetis]

didnt read all pages but the penalties for not registering seem very sever and seems discriminatory that only one sex is subject to it. Maybe put them in other roles in the event of a draft and those who can't cope with the physical demands, same with men who cant cope with the requirements.

[Spectral]

... seems discriminatory that only one sex is subject to it.

Yes, it is. So what? The notion that the primary principle that we must uphold above all else is avoiding discrimination is just ridiculous. There's no objective basis for it. It's a moral judgment that people accept because it's been pounded for the past few decades, but it doesn't make sense in this context.

Also worth noting is that the 14th Amendment doesn't rescue the equalist position here - equality before the law applies in the context of things that are actually equal. The physical abilities of inclination for combat between men and women are not equal. Equalism in the context of unequal things is ideological, not an objective good.

[Deleted]

Yes, it is. So what? .

as i said, women don't get to vote then.

[BuckSparkles]

as i said, women don't get to vote then.

They are allowed to vote but restricted from fighting on the front lines...

[Gheld]

Don't worry, Canada will continue to offer asylum to draft dodgers. So this is all moot anyways.

[Spectral]

as i said, women don't get to vote then.

I understand the point you're making, but I don't think it's correct. The reason to not treat men and women equally with regard to a military draft is that they aren't actually equal in that context. This doesn't have any real implications for voting. If I understand you correctly, your quibble is that it isn't fair that men have an additional obligation. My response that fairness isn't really an important goal to me. Building stable, happy, productive societies is, and I don't see a plausible path to sending young women into the draft that improves the state of society.

[Vanyali]

This is pretty laughable. The strength gap between sexes isn't primarily a result of the patriarchy, it's primarily a result of biology.

I definitely did not say, nor do I support, that there's zero strength gap between sexes.

All I've said is that, having grown up as a female, there's a heavy push toward "don't be muscled" "don't be too strong" "girls can't bulk so why do you want to try anyway" when doing anything remotely dealing with strength, not to mention being pushed out of the way so a "strong guy" can do something I'm perfectly capable of doing myself. That shit doesn't stop at childhood, either - went straight into my job, where I was stronger than half the guys but constantly told I couldn't do it "because you're a girl lol".

That psychological limit is hard to break for some women. Being told you can't do something your entire life means that, more like than not, you won't be able to do so without some serious, serious training just to get over your own mind.

[Deleted]

I understand the point you're making, but I don't think it's correct. The reason to not treat men and women equally with regard to a military draft is that they aren't actually equal in that context. This doesn't have any real implications for voting.

Yes it does, they don't have an equal stake in the state, therefore, they should not have equal voting rights.

Building stable, happy, productive societies is, and I don't see a plausible path to sending young women into the draft that improves the state of society.

And i fail to see the need for women to have the right to vote.

[Glnger]

women have "earned" this right.

[Spectral]

Yes it does, they don't have an equal stake in the state, therefore, they should not have equal voting rights.

And i fail to see the need for women to have the right to vote.

I'm the wrong guy to defend universal suffrage, since I'm not particularly enthusiastic about it, but I'll note that in our actual society, we long ago dispensed with the notion that people's stake in society is what determine's their right to vote. Stakeholding was an important part of the initial design of the vote in the United States, but was long ago scrapped.

I don't see the connection between military service and voting though. There are many responsibilities in society. They are not distributed equally by gender. Woman have borne and continue to bear more of the responsibility for raising children. I think this is a fine way for society to be. Women are more inclined to raise children, men are more inclined to kill enemies. That's fine.

We don't have to pretend that the genders are functionally identical in talents and preferences to grant each basic rights and respect. I cannot see a plausible case to prevent women from voting. Arguing it based on the draft just seems like spite.

[Deleted]

I don't see the connection between military service and voting though.

It being the primary determinant for the constitutionality of the draft, its very clear.

There are many responsibilities in society.

And women bear nearly none of them, Military, police, workplace deaths, hours worked, working bad hours, working harsher conditions, Unless we mandate all women to bear three kids regardless of her wishes, its not comparable.

We don't have to pretend that the genders are functionally identical in talents and preferences to grant each basic rights and respect.

They have to be, else granting them equivalent rights is stupid.