[ARCANE] Legion Beta Megathread

[Imnick]

Buffing NT and SN wouldn't prevent AE from being a 2 target filler, neither of those other spell's can fill that role and one even benefits from the charges AE can generate.

[whisperingsage]

It sounds like the damage of AE just needs to be reduced till it's balanced around the number of mobs they want. Rebound being the same damage at three mobs or thirty mobs is a bit disappointing, given Barrage can only hit five targets, so anything beyond that is only hit by the rebound explosion.

If they do take some damage out of AE, adding some into NT and SN would make those two feel a lot better.

[Imnick]

Moving damage from baseline spells into talents you may not have is rarely desirable.
AE provides such a strong damage coefficient compared to other AOEs because it also imposes movement restrictions that are not usual for other AOEs.

[whisperingsage]

It doesn't sound right for arcane to AE at two targets either way, so if they're going to take damage out anyway, putting some of it into the lackluster aoe talents would be nice.

Having some benefit because of having to be in melee does make sense, but giving arcane amazing single target, cleave, *and* aoe seems extremely strange, especially since there seems to be no difference between the cleave and aoe rotation besides maybe using missiles.

[Northem]

Main issues about
the Arcane Mages
<sup>- Being those of blue text the most important ones -
- Ignoring the much-needed graphic overhaul -</sup>

Baseline Spells

• [Arcane Blast] => At the beta, many people are complaining about the arcane rotation being very slow, especially during the leveling, and it turns out that the guilty one is none other than the long cast time of [Arcane Blast] which now is the main generator of [Arcane Missiles]. Of course the [Quickening] talent solves the problem, but remember that talents do not exist to fix the faults of our baseline spells. Therefore, I advocate for the easiest solution, which is none other than the return of an iconic characteristic sorely missed: [Enhanced Arcane Blast], which could be fully integrated into the own baseline [Arcane Blast] as other WoD perks have done already instead of disappearing.
  
  
• [Arcane Explosion] => As a DPS spec, doing AoE damage is obviously part of our basic job, then, why the hell Blizzard forces a ranged spec to enter melee in order to do its job? In my view, [Arcane Explosion] should be an anecdotal melee tool, used mainly to "scare away"/finish melee attackers, and perhaps it should even be baseline for the Fire and Frost Mages. But anyway, if Blizzard remains steadfast in the decision that [Arcane Explosion] should be our main tool to do AoE damage, then it must be in the same conditions as its counterparts of the other two specializations ([Blizzard] and [Flamestrike]), i.e.: [Arcane Explosion] must be a ranged spell, or at least have that possibility. The system that [Supernova] currently uses would be perfect, namely: allowing [Arcane Explosion] to be casted around an enemy target (without losing the iconicity of being able to cast it around us).
  
  
• [Greater Invisibility] => For the sake of converting a talent into a baseline skill, now [Greater Invisibility] has lost much of its previous utility, but that's not the worst. The worst is that now the Fire and Frost Mages will have to settle with the absolutely useless [Invisibility]. I think that the logical thing would be that [Invisibility] was turned into a really and properly useful and baseline skill for all specs, and then [Greater Invisibility] could return to be a talent that would improve it greatly (a talent perhaps only available for Arcane Mages, I don't know).
  
  
• [Slow] => Honestly, this spell is very poor because over the years it has been losing more and more faculties until it has turned into something almost dispensable. The fact that now it cannot even be attached to [Arcane Blast] by the Glyph of Slow will make that many people will even forget to use it. I will simply say that it seems incredible that a master at manipulating the flow of time can only slow down slightly the speed of movement of his enemies. In my opinion, a spell like [Slow] should have much more potential... At least now, thanks to the [Sloooow Down] artifact trait, we can use [Slow] as a pseudo-substitute of the missing [Cone of Cold].
  
  
• [Displacement] => Despite of being the heir of [Alter Time] (leaving the capability of restoring the lost health for another skill), [Displacement] perhaps lacks the flexibility that his "father" provided, as sometimes we'll want to save our current position (for later be able to return to it) without using [Blink]. For that reason I think that [Displacement] should turn into a fully stand-alone utility spell not related with [Blink] at all, something like my idea.

Talents

• [Shimmer] => I think that is the first time in history that a talent worsens a spell instead of improving it. Actually, in most cases the main use of [Blink] is to free us from stuns and bonds in order to escape, so if the "frees you from all stuns and bonds" part is removed thanks to [Shimmer], [Blink] would lose much of its usefulness on many aspects of the game (except perhaps for those choreographed instanced fights). Allowing that both charges of [Shimmer] could remove stuns and bonds wouldn't sound so over-powered if this talent could compete against other mobility talents (as [Blazing Speed] or [Ice Floes]). However, if even that couldn't be admitted, I'm sure there are another less detrimental alternatives, like another idea of mine.
  
  
• Level 75 talent tier => Just take a look at that talent tier to see that there is something wrong... Both [Ring of Frost] and [Ice Ward] are pure CC talents that should be moved to the PvP talent tree in any case. Then, by reallocating the current level 30 talents, two distinct tiers of regular talents could be created: the aforementioned "mobility tier" (comprised of [Shimmer], [Blazing Speed] and [Ice Floes]) and a "survival tier" (comprised of an [Alter Time] that doesn't save the position, an improved [Cauterize] and obviously [Cold Snap]). Surely, those talent tiers would be better received than the mess we have now.
  
  
• [Quickening] => Although it sounds paradoxical, the problem here is that this talent is too good and therefore too necessary. [Quickening] is mandatory because it solves the previously mentioned slowness problem of the arcane rotation as well as it surpasses greatly to its talent tier rivals ([Overpowered] and [Arcane Orb]) at the time of inflicting the maximum DPS as possible. Although we can not yet assure that [Quickening] will be the chosen talent in 90% of cases, it seems that will be so, something which it is not desirable at all. What would be the solution? Nerfing [Quickening] and/or empowering its talent tier rivals so as to the three talents are balanced? Making [Quickening] a baseline feature for the arcane specialization? I honestly do not know, what does is clear is that something must be done about the level 100 talent tier.
  
  
• [Mirror Image] => Here we have a couple of problems (leaving aside that this spell should be baseline for all mages given its usefulness). Firstly, in its talent tier there is already a CD spell ([Rune of Power]) and therefore the two cannot coexist, since one will always be better than the other and hence the chosen talent in 99% of cases (in fact, we already know that [Rune of Power] will be the best one). And secondly, unlike its talent tier rivals, [Mirror Image] has a serious problem with its escalation, as for example it will not benefit from other effects or from certain statistics such as Mastery. In short, [Mirror Image] needs a review or rather a replacement (like this suggestion of mine).
  
  
• [Words of Power] => The main downside of this talent is that it reminds our former and disgusting Mastery, since it promotes the idea of not spending mana in order to get more benefit from it, something which is actually counterproductive. The only hope for [Words of Power] is that its synergies with other talents like [Overpowered] are able to turn it into a valid and practical option, because otherwise, we are facing a talent not very rewarding. Maybe this talent was more "logical" if the probability of generating [Arcane Missiles] was greater the LESS mana we had (as [Arcane Missiles] is a free spell, it would help us with the mana regen).
  
  
• [Charged Up] => It is good to have an ability to recharge our [Arcane Charges], the problem is that we have other ways that help us to generate them (such as [Arcane Orb] or [Presence of Mind]) which are even better than [Charged Up] because they also help to generate the increasingly rare [Arcane Missiles], something which is not possible with [Charged Up]. Maybe it would be more interesting that [Charged Up] generates 3 procs of [Arcane Missiles] in addition to the 4 [Arcane Charges], because if there is something we really need, is a way to obtain [Arcane Missiles] procs at request.
  
  
• [Presence of Mind] => The only problem here (besides if the three talents of this talent tier can be equated or not) is that it would be very interesting that [Presence of Mind] affects all spells with cast time and not only to [Arcane Blast] (as currently happens with [Polymorph] on live for instance).

Artifact Traits

• [Mark of Aluneth] => After years of struggle against the damned [Rune of Power] and the annoying [Prismatic Crystal] now we discover that the very same active trait of our own artifact (which should be the "most select" arcane spell of the expansion) is indeed the bastard son of both atrocities! I don't know why the Arcane Mages' developers insist in repeat the same errors again and again… No need to explain that having to use this awkward trait compulsorily for an entire expansion would be an actual ordeal. For example, just imagine how would be its use in PvP! Certainly, [Mark of Aluneth] is an useless spell on almost every aspect of the game and reducing the time the enemy has to stay inside the area doesn't solve anything. The most logical and best solution is that this spell is attached to the target rather than to the ground under it once and for all. Then, obviously, [Mark of Aluneth] should lose its slowing component as, besides it wouldn't be necessary, it would be redundant with [Slow].
  
  
• [Aegwynn's Ascendance] => By seeing the last changes done to [Arcane Explosion] and the current iteration of this trait, it seems that Blizzard now thinks that Arcane Mages are a melee class... If the previous version of this trait was more or less acceptable, why the hell they need to change it again to its first (and horrible) iteration? (this time even without the immunity protection...) Blizzard is telling us that each time we need to evocate to recover mana we have to enter melee in order to take advantage of this trait, and that is so stupid that cannot be accepted under any circumstances: Arcane Mages are a ranged class, not melee.
  
  
• [Touch of the Magi] => Anyone who has suffered the misfortunes of [Prophecy of Fear] knows for sure that the randomness of this major trait destroys any interest that it might raise. The concept of "cumulative bomb" is wonderful, as long as it is under our control, since otherwise it only generates frustration. That is why this major trait needs to be revised in my opinion.
  
  
• [Rule of Threes] => Here we have even more randomness! Perhaps the previous version of this trait was overpowered, I don't know, but that was no excuse to turn this major trait into the umpteenth random-stuff for the Arcane Mages. We are not Fire Mages, randomness is not funny for us.

PvP Talents

• [Kleptomania] => Putting a cooldown to [Spellsteal] is understandable taking into account the improvement provided by this talent, but instead of adding a fixed CD, would not it be better that the CD was greater or lesser depending on the number of "stolen" effects? Thus for example if we only steal a single effect we would not have to wait the very same time as if we had stolen seven effects...
  
  
• [Time Anomoly] => This talent is the last straw of randomness... I mean, is it someone finds this talent competitive or even funny? I guess only the fans of random things will enjoy this talent.

Known Bugs

• "Losing Arcane Charges when entering combat". "Arcane charges are still dropping between combat". "I've lost charges when using greater invis in 5 mans as well as during extremely brief periods of between-target time in the world". "Arcane charges are still disappearing on entering combat".
  
  
• There's a weird delay on arcane barrage between pushing the button and the spell actually casting.
  
  
• MoA still isn't doing dmg if incapacitated (including ice block) and doesn't work with Ice Floes.
  
  
• Displacement is still bugged, occasionally not doing anything.
  
  
• "Nether Tempest is broken for me right now. Somehow the damage is not increasing per arcane charge". "No matter how many arcane charges you had it did the same amount of damage".
  
  
• "Casting arcane blast at 10% mana while arcane power is up and losing ap buff mid-cast causes your cast to abort since the 30% mana reduction from arcane power is gone once ap runs out".
  
  
• "Arcane familiar doesn't seem to work on non-hostile target dummys". "[Arcane Familiar] keeps disappearing randomly without being dispelled". "It does seem to be is mob aggro bait".

[Incredimage]

Moving damage from baseline spells into talents you may not have is rarely desirable.
AE provides such a strong damage coefficient compared to other AOEs because it also imposes movement restrictions that are not usual for other AOEs.

I don't totally agree with this sentiment. I do appreciate that AE has a limitation that prevents you from always being able to use it but every spec in the game is going to have talents that shift focus from ST or low target cleave to AoE. AE is simply too strong relative to AB in low target cleave situations for my taste. I think making AE weaker with few targets whether by having the damage scale up with the amount of targets like Barrage does with Torrent or just lowering the damage to a point that makes sense it just should not be this strong. A side benefit of moving the potency of AE and possibly Barrage into NT/SN is we will actually have a ranged option for AoE besides Barrage and our trait.

I had a thought last night that adding AE to Torrent and lowering the amount per target to something like 10% would reign in Barrage and give an avenue to make AE a purely situational AoE ability that you could make powerful with a talent but would otherwise be reserved for the rare mass AoE situation.

[Imnick]

You don't want baseline damage moved into talents, or if they do it must be applied to every talent on the row.
Power moved out of baseline spells needs to go into other baseline spells, or an entire talent row, but not just vanish into the ether if you picked a talent that isn't buffed to compensate.

[Incredimage]

You don't want baseline damage moved into talents, or if they do it must be applied to every talent on the row.
Power moved out of baseline spells needs to go into other baseline spells, or an entire talent row, but not just vanish into the ether if you picked a talent that isn't buffed to compensate.

Right now I don't think SN or NT are comparable to the talents on their row. Really they just need to be buffed to be in line with their counterparts and AE needs its damage tuned down. In a sense they are unrelated but practically speaking shifting the damage to those talents to bring them in line with the others is what would balance those talents and keep Arcane AoE from getting out of hand.

[whisperingsage]

Having straight of baseline spells moved into talents is bad, if the strength of the baseline spell is balanced and makes sense. If AE is equal or better than AB at only two targets, then that is clearly not balanced or make sense. Otherwise, you only ever cast Blast with one target, which feels very wrong for the spec. Even if AE is equal at three targets- which could easily be the intention due to Arcane Rebound- that is a lot of fights where Blast is the incorrect choice.

Instead of saying power should be moved from AE to talents, perhaps it's better to say that AE should not overbear AB, and that the aoe talents feel weak and should be buffed to feel impactful.

[Incredimage]

Having straight of baseline spells moved into talents is bad, if the strength of the baseline spell is balanced and makes sense. If AE is equal or better than AB at only two targets, then that is clearly not balanced or make sense. Otherwise, you only ever cast Blast with one target, which feels very wrong for the spec. Even if AE is equal at three targets- which could easily be the intention due to Arcane Rebound- that is a lot of fights where Blast is the incorrect choice.

Instead of saying power should be moved from AE to talents, perhaps it's better to say that AE should not overbear AB, and that the aoe talents feel weak and should be buffed to feel impactful.

I feel like we're saying the same thing here but just in a different way. Currently AE is too powerful and AoE talents are not powerful enough outside of Torrent and, because of Arcane Barrage's power, Arcane Orb is also good. If you don't want to consider it shifting power from baseline to talents then that's fine but the baseline is too high and the talents are too low. If they want Arcane AoE to be competitive while not making AE the filler of choice in low target cleave situations then they will need to buff SN/NT and nerf AE or make it scale based on targets hit.

I'll agree that taking something that's baseline and balanced as is and making it weak to make a talent more appealing wouldn't be a good thing but I guess that depends on what you consider balanced. If the idea of balance is that every spec does 200k ST, 300k 2T, 500k AoE without talents and Arcane already fits that then sure that would be fine as is. But I think they want you to choose between doing 350k ST or 800k AoE with your talents and I'm okay with making those choices on a fight to fight basis. If to accomplish that they shift power from baseline to talents then that's fine. Arcane isn't in a bad spot at all in Alpha compared to everyone else but we'll see what happens when we get our first major tuning pass.

[Northem]

In my view, [Arcane Explosion] (apart from being targetable) should do more or less damage depending on the number of enemies affected (the more enemies affected, the more damage for all) in order to make it more attractive against a large number of enemies.

Also I think that, instead of generating always an [Arcane Charge] whatever it is the amount of enemies affected, [Arcane Explosion] should have a probability of generating/refreshing [Arcane Charges] based on the number of enemies affected by it. For example: per enemy affected, [Arcane Explosion] could have a 20% chances of generating an [Arcane Charge].

[Deleted]

Northem, it has become clear from your suggestions in the last few weeks that you want very simple and deterministic spells that always make perfect logical sense, they are always convenient and always very clearly and blatantly useful. You have to understand this is an RPG game - to not say plainly "a game" - and complexity that often looks cumbersome is part of the game. You can make games or classes that are very simplistic and very easy to use but that is not a must.

[Northem]

Northem, it has become clear from your suggestions in the last few weeks that you want very simple and deterministic spells that always make perfect logical sense, they are always convenient and always very clearly and blatantly useful. You have to understand this is an RPG game - to not say plainly "a game" - and complexity that often looks cumbersome is part of the game. You can make games or classes that are very simplistic and very easy to use but that is not a must.

So, according to you, are preferable awkward and frustrating spells for the sake of a "complex" game...

Other people think the same? It is that there is no one who agrees with my "complaints" before developed? Perhaps only with a couple of them?

I can synthesize it even more. In fact, I would like Blizzard to receive the following ideas as feedback of the Arcane Mages:

• Don't be stubborn! Learn from your past errors, don't repeat them! [Mark of Aluneth] is neither fun nor usable, and mere numeric changes won't change that. Give us a completely new and interesting Active Artifact Trait, or if you don't have imagination enough, simply make [Mark of Aluneth] be attached to the target itself, not to the floor under it, and remove its slowness component accordingly.
  
  
• Arcane Mages are not a melee spec! Why have you turned [Arcane Explosion] into our main AoE damage spell knowing that it’s a melee spell? Allow us casting [Arcane Explosion] at an enemy target at least. Why [Aegwynn's Ascendance] forces us to enter melee in order to take advantage of it? That Major Trait is incompatible with us, reason why [Aegwynn's Ascendance] need to be changed to something less melee-oriented.
  
  
• The [Quickening] talent feels very necessary, maybe because its talent-tier companions (especially [Arcane Orb]) are so weak. The same happens with the level 45 talent tier, where [Rune of Power] is the clear winner and [Mirror Image] is useless as it doesn’t even escalate properly. And well, there is a serious problem at the level 75 talent tier too, as we find talents that should be PvP talents if anything. Needless to say the mess existing in the level 30 talent tier for example, where we find talents that provide utilities such disparate that prevents the talents can even be comparable. In short: a lot of balance/reorganization between talents must be done yet guys!

[Deleted]

So, according to you, are preferable awkward and frustrating spells for the sake of a "complex" game...

I didn't say what I prefer. If you want my opinion I'm unsure about what's going on. I tend to think "that's how MMORPGs are", they are not going to always make sense, the spells are not always going to be simplistic (FPS-game like) and while I do not find that extremely pleasant, I don't believe it can change without changing the gametype.

[Incredimage]

Arcane Orb isn't weak at all if there is AoE to be had. Barrage hits for silly damage and anything that gets you more of them will be good especially if burst AoE is required. I'd say the only changes we need now are tuning changes. You can argue T75 but the chance anyone moves away from Ice Floes is low.

AE being melee is a bit awkward but not really a huge deal to me. Some fights it will be harder to use and in those fights other classes will have to step up or you'll have to be more careful, maybe put Displacement to good use. Melee classes make those kinds of decisions all the time.

[Deleted]

AE being melee is a bit awkward but not really a huge deal to me. Some fights it will be harder to use and in those fights other classes will have to step up or you'll have to be more careful, maybe put Displacement to good use. Melee classes make those kinds of decisions all the time.

What I haven't seen discussed is the radius. On live I find it useful to have the glyph (though in some cases like Xhul, you may have to be in china). If it stays 10 yards in legion I find that small in some cases.

[Incredimage]

What I haven't seen discussed is the radius. On live I find it useful to have the glyph (though in some cases like Xhul, you may have to be in china). If it stays 10 yards in legion I find that small in some cases.

There is a one point Artifact trait that increases the radius by 4 yards.

[Deleted]

There is a one point Artifact trait that increases the radius by 4 yards.

That might be actually what we need. We could probably push for more since the glyph is higher than 4. The default radius is really small and that might be what people would complain most about, by thinking of the default value only, since you can't even reliably do some regular world PvE with it in some cases.

I have to admit the spell is one of the most hilarious spells in the game when it gets to farming something silly in the world. Have you done the farming for charms in the seasonal even recently? We are probably the most "overpowered" spec for it.

[Seneca]

Northem, it has become clear from your suggestions in the last few weeks that you want very simple and deterministic spells that always make perfect logical sense, they are always convenient and always very clearly and blatantly useful. You have to understand this is an RPG game - to not say plainly "a game" - and complexity that often looks cumbersome is part of the game. You can make games or classes that are very simplistic and very easy to use but that is not a must.

What's "complex" about MoA usage? It seems very straightforward to me.

When there are clustered targets, we use MoA. What am I missing?

I can be a LFR raider and Bob can be a mythic raider, I am sure that we both can use it properly.

Of course if I memorize the mechanics of a fight, I have an edge, and the same apply if Bob does so. If I have spent the whole week learning a boss fight or have already killed it 10 times in the last few months, I have an edge, but not because I am more skilled, but because everything is already scripted in my mind.

So, pretending that both I and Bob are clueless, I think that there's no difference about our MoA usage.

Said that, the issues with MoA, I think, are not about its complexity, but about the fact that the results of our performance are dictated by external factors rather than by internal factors (for example, our skill).

I can use MoA as flawlessly as possible and, still, my performance can be negatively altered by:

- not all targets being in a 6 yard radius in the first place for whatever reason;
- targets moving outside the 6 yard range, for whatever reason, during the 8 secs (2 sec cast + 6 sec DoT) MoA needs to fully take effect;
- targets dying before the 8 sec window ended;
- doing solo PvE contents to begin with;
- doing solo/group PvP contents to begin with.

I must say, those issues got lessened (but not straight out removed) with the latest patches, because the DoT duration part got reduced and the damage amp post DoT got removed. Maybe MoA, as of now, is fine/bearable? It's something subjective, surely.

Said that, I am not necessarily against "restrictive" mechanics, because through their restrictiveness their impact can be amplified with optimal performances, thanks to their being restrictive in the first place (I hope what I said made sense, for example take RoP very optimal usage, even though a huge part of RoP results was dictated by external factors, but this is not the point, for now).

Still, I think that it would be healthier if the restrictions would be totally or almost totally in our control. For example, MoA second mechanic, "and then detonating for arcane damage equal to 15% of your maximum mana", is a restriction, yes, but it's something entirely in our control, and something that, if properly managed, can bring to awesome performances (or, anyway, to better than average performances). As far as that second mechanic, we and only we can mess it up or use it flawlessly.

[Deleted]

Sorry, but who is talking about Mark of Aluneth in what you quoted? I was making a general observation about the analysis type of some posters who appear to always want easier spells to use, simpler to use and spells that always make perfect sense and synergize perfectly. My opinion on individual spells is another matter.

MoA, does not look that hard to use. It looks like a version of Flamestrike. It's usually reliable unless something moves too fast.

Of course if someone wants to make everything extremely no-nosense in the class, they may want to simplify it further.