Classic World of Warcraft Discussion [Megathread]

[Mizix]

Snip

I'm not really an expert when it comes down to how private servers actually work (client/server side thing) so thanks for the insight. Now for the dumb question: I assumed developers actually developed the client or modified an old version of WoW in order to run a vanilla private server, no? If that is the case, it looks like a quite clear infringement of copyright law because they would have used and redistributed the game without asking Blizzard first. Even if they really wrote every single line code themselves, they would still be using music, images, database, etc. (remember there is also a generic category for whatever doesn't fit the most common ones).

As far as images and music go, I'm not sure people have to actually download to or stream on their PC to qualify for redistribution (which only matters if it's not for private or family use), making them available without Blizzard's consent may be enough. Perhaps, it would be akin to using songs in TV commercials: ad companies need have the copyright owner's permission to play its music, even though the public don't really download/stream anything... the music is just made available to them.


@Sidious78 : I didn't open up the can of worm that "not making money" is, because the Private Server We Cannot Name is a borderline example imho. They claim it was to pay the ISP and that everything else went to charity but a) that's still making money and b) it is their word. Also, I brought up French law because that particular private server was hosted in France (if I remember correctly). The EU only has directives and basic rights (plus well, jurisprudence from its Court) which member States have to enact into their national laws. Generally speaking, the main difference is whether a State considers video games to be "multimedia work" or "computer programs" : in the latter case, they recognize all the different aspects of the game (code, music, images, etc.) and protect them all separately while the multimedia approach considers game to be a whole. In that case it could be harder to prove copyright infringement when not everything was copied (ex. the code re-written). Not sure if Blizzard would need to prove that all of it was stolen (as a whole) and not just a parts of it, though.

Since some people think Russia is a safe haven, just know that Russian copyright law is actually stricter than France or EU. Video games are not exactly defined, so they can be considered both computer programs and audiovisual work (so the multiple protection, like France). On top of that, Russian law also protects individual parts of the game. The name of the game, characters names, set-ups and graphics can be eligible for copyright protection. A few years ago Russia even set up a specific Intellectual Property Court because of so many disputes around copyright, with the purpose of adhering to international standards. Thus, I wouldn't go as far as assuming that because Blizzard is a U.S. company then Russian courts won't do their job. Seems a far cry to me.

Maybe when video games will be better defined by copyright laws and there will be more precedents, Blizzard will feel comfortable to sue. Ambiguities can be a real problem when they risk to lose parts of their IP because the law is not up with the times yet.

[Deleted]

I'm not really an expert when it comes down to how private servers actually work (client/server side thing) so thanks for the insight. Now for the dumb question: I assumed developers actually developed the client or modified an old version of WoW in order to run a vanilla private server, no? If that is the case, it looks like a quite clear infringement of copyright law because they would have used and redistributed the game without asking Blizzard first. Even if they really wrote every single line code themselves, they would still be using music, images, database, etc. (remember there is also a generic category for whatever doesn't fit the most common ones).

Nope, the private server developers have nothing to do with the game client. They don't modify it or anything at all.

Simply said, you can dig out your old WoW installation CD roms, install the game on your hard drive; download and install the patches (which were released for download by Blizzard back then, and are of course still legally available online). Then simply change 1 line of text in a text file of the game (or re-route the IP on windows level if you're wary about modifying game files, even though its literally only a text file).

That is literally all it takes to connect to a private server. And as you see, there is no step at all involved from the server host / developers to do this. So as mentioned, they're not using any music, images and so forth.

As far as images and music go, I'm not sure people have to actually download to or stream on their PC to qualify for redistribution (which only matters if it's not for private or family use), making them available without Blizzard's consent may be enough. Perhaps, it would be akin to using songs in TV commercials: ad companies need have the copyright owner's permission to play its music, even though the public don't really download/stream anything... the music is just made available to them.

The user does have the music etc. on their PC. But they didn't receive that from the server host - rather, just by installing the game. So that's nothing the server host would in any way be responsible for. You could replace the Elwynn Forest soundtrack with your favourite Abba song if you wanted to, the server won't stop you, or even know at all.

Picture it like a webserver sending a command to your stereo set to play track number 3 on whatever CD you currently have in there. It doesn't actually touch or have the CD or any data contained on it at all, this is all in your own home. That's literally all the server would do.

[Kyanion]

Can we stop talking about PS? Arguing the legality of them isn't allowed in this thread anymore.

[Ielenia]

Nope, the private server developers have nothing to do with the game client. They don't modify it or anything at all.

Uhh... that is downright, objectively false. Clients are and have to be modified, otherwise, when launched, the clients will attempt to connect to the official servers. Worse thing is, you contradict yourself in the very next sentence:

Simply said, you can dig out your old WoW installation CD roms, install the game on your hard drive; download and install the patches (which were released for download by Blizzard back then, and are of course still legally available online). Then simply change 1 line of text in a text file of the game (or re-route the IP on windows level if you're wary about modifying game files, even though its literally only a text file).

Here. Despite you contradicting yourself, I imagine that to connect to a fake server you need more than just 'change one line of text' to connect to a fake server, considering there may be copy protections in place, like there is in any other game around.

[Deleted]

Uhh... that is downright, objectively false. Clients are and have to be modified, otherwise, when launched, the clients will attempt to connect to the official servers. Worse thing is, you contradict yourself in the very next sentence:

No contradiction. Read again:

Nope, the private server developers have nothing to do with the game client. They don't modify it or anything at all.

It's not the hosts of a private server who would have to do that "modification", it's the end user (=you) on his local machine only.

Here. Despite you contradicting yourself, I imagine that to connect to a fake server you need more than just 'change one line of text' to connect to a fake server, considering there may be copy protections in place, like there is in any other game around.

You imagine wrong. It is literally one line in a text file, editable in notepad, replacing the connection IP.
There are no copy protections about this in place.
If you still don't like that, you can do it on OS level as well without ever touching any of the game's files.

Can we stop talking about PS? Arguing the legality of them isn't allowed in this thread anymore.

Don't they only want to prevent discussion about specific private servers rather than principles and legality of them in general?
The latter is a useful discussion to have imho, there is a lot of misinformation regarding that going around; bringing these back onto a factual level can only help any discussion, hopefully

[Bellabel]

Let's make WOW great again and bring Legacy servers! If Trump and the Cubs can win, Legacy can too!

[Kyanion]

Don't they only want to prevent discussion about specific private servers rather than principles and legality of them in general? The latter is a useful discussion to have imho, there is a lot of misinformation regarding that going around; bringing these back onto a factual level can only help any discussion, hopefully

I believe the discussion is only about WoW sponsored Legacy realms if those were to ever happen and that any talks of private servers and the legality of them was to be stopped.

[Deleted]

No contradiction. Read again:



It's not the hosts of a private server who would have to do that "modification", it's the end user (=you) on his local machine only.



You imagine wrong. It is literally one line in a text file, editable in notepad, replacing the connection IP.
There are no copy protections about this in place.
If you still don't like that, you can do it on OS level as well without ever touching any of the game's files.




Don't they only want to prevent discussion about specific private servers rather than principles and legality of them in general?
The latter is a useful discussion to have imho, there is a lot of misinformation regarding that going around; bringing these back onto a factual level can only help any discussion, hopefully

Great post and explanation, thanks.

Also, if the developers code their own server from scratch, 100% their own code, then they cannot be breaking copyright law, can they?

I know they break the TOS, but that will only lead to Blizzard closing their account?

If what I say is mostly true, then what power do Blizzard really have in forcing them to close the PS?

[Deleted]

Just wanted to clarify this little fallacy here: you're not paying Blizzard to have them develop the game how you want it. You're paying them to have the privilege of accessing and playing in their game servers and posting on their forums. Again, you're not paying them to be your personal content developer. To believe otherwise is, well, delusional, at best.

Another bright mind Seriously I begin to understand why the game is what it is today. Listen sherlock - I know that I don't develop the game! wow! thanks for making it clear. Now use your brain a little more and notice that when I pay I contribute in maintaining this thing. The more people like me - ditching this game - the harder its gonna get to maintain it. Thus I have an indirect impact on which way the game develops.

Seriously, it's not that hard. I'm gonna clarify with another simple example - you go to the store and you buy certain things. The shop owner has full independence in what he will offer you but if he sees you buying some products and some keep on rotting on the shelves - he will eventually focus on the ones I'm buying if he wants his business to succeed.

You understood?

edit: there was once a game that started off big and didn't listen to the voices of its community. Remember Wildstar? great game - but nobody is playing it. It started with a lot of people playing and paying, then when people started pulling their wallets - they had to switch to f2p. They eventually did patch the game and make it a great MMO - but its too late now.

Now tell the developers that made Wildstar that customers don't have an impact on how the game looks like. Specially to those people that were fired when the game started loosing subs.

Anyways, too bad for Wildstar cause it's a great game but nobody plays it anymore.

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I just clicked on WoW discount offer details and It said something that kinda says it all about why legacy realms matter:

"Play solo or enlist your friends to join forces with you as you negotiate the vast, battle-scarred landscape of a world at war. "

They are not even trying to hide the fact that multiplayer in WoW is optional. This is no longer an MMO. Period.

[Kyanion]

Another bright mind Seriously I begin to understand why the game is what it is today. Listen sherlock - I know that I don't develop the game! wow! thanks for making it clear. Now use your brain a little more and notice that when I pay I contribute in maintaining this thing. The more people like me - ditching this game - the harder its gonna get to maintain it. Thus I have an indirect impact on which way the game develops.

Seriously, it's not that hard. I'm gonna clarify with another simple example - you go to the store and you buy certain things. The shop owner has full independence in what he will offer you but if he sees you buying some products and some keep on rotting on the shelves - he will eventually focus on the ones I'm buying if he wants his business to succeed.

You act if you are some sort of majority in that people are quitting the game for your reasons. That has been one of the biggest disconnects in this thread. You don't know all the reasons why people have quit in the past or how many would come back if Blizz did legacy realms. And to go one further in this situation the shop owner (Blizz) has seen what products move and what feedback they get and they STILL haven't put Legacy on the shelves. Does that tell you enough yet about the prospects of having it on the shelves in the near future?

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edit: there was once a game that started off big and didn't listen to the voices of its community. Remember Wildstar? great game - but nobody is playing it. It started with a lot of people playing and paying, then when people started pulling their wallets - they had to switch to f2p. They eventually did patch the game and make it a great MMO - but its too late now.

Now tell the developers that made Wildstar that customers don't have an impact on how the game looks like. Specially to those people that were fired when the game started loosing subs.

Anyways, too bad for Wildstar cause it's a great game but nobody plays it anymore.

Wildstar started off big and lost a huge chunk of subs before the first month even finished. That game was doomed once people got a good whiff at just how stupid the keying system/grind was. Your example is a game that missiled into the ground right away and has been on life support (Also known as: F2P) ever since. One of the problems was that they DID listen to the community in that they were a vocal minority demanding this super hardcore game. Ring any bells? Mainly just the vocal minority part, I'd not call Vanilla hardcore.

[Deleted]

I have a brand new theory!

Blizz decided that they cannot do Legacy servers as they are not sure that it will be profitable. So, they contacted the Voldermort team and told them to go the press with how they are being ignored and that they are now going to relaunch, etc. The whole saga.

That will keep the masses happy in the knowledge that they will be able to play classic after all and all pressure will be off Blizzard. Blizzard will continue to cast a blind eye over proceedings and in the end everybody gets what they want!

Plausible? :P

[Deleted]

You act if you are some sort of majority in that people are quitting the game for your reasons. That has been one of the biggest disconnects in this thread. You don't know all the reasons why people have quit in the past or how many would come back if Blizz did legacy realms. And to go one further in this situation the shop owner (Blizz) has seen what products move and what feedback they get and they STILL haven't put Legacy on the shelves. Does that tell you enough yet about the prospects of having it on the shelves in the near future?

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Wildstar started off big and lost a huge chunk of subs before the first month even finished. That game was doomed once people got a good whiff at just how stupid the keying system/grind was. Your example is a game that missiled into the ground right away and has been on life support (Also known as: F2P) ever since. One of the problems was that they DID listen to the community in that they were a vocal minority demanding this super hardcore game. Ring any bells? Mainly just the vocal minority part, I'd not call Vanilla hardcore.

Dude, you jumped in the middle of discussion. Some guy elecbubby or something like that said that I pay for the privilage to play and Blizzard does not owe me anything and basically I should be happy to be even playing etc. and that customers have no saying on how the game develops.

And I just made an example how customers have a huge impact on a developer of MMO. That is all. I do think that most of the people who left liked the old model (well, duh?) but they were replaced by new community, who seem to like being held by hand through the game.

I'm not threating blizzard I am merely saying that I wont continue my sub because I feel that blizzard screw me over. I would've accepted a simple NO - yet they decided to lead vanilla people on. That is not right. I just said that and this elecybubby guy jumped in telling me that blizzard does not owe me an answer and I should just praise the Lord that they don't terminate my sub


and as for Wildstar - you couldn't be more wrong. People seem to think that it failed because it was hardcore? this is bullshit. There was plenty of content for the casual people. The game failed because of hundreds of bugs, stupid PvP system and - what is the biggest issue -totally non-climatic world. That is why I left - this game is too much of a joke for me. It's neither fantasy nor sci-fi, the whole lore is like a big pile of sarcastic absurd :P I had many friends who gave this game a shot and all felt the same - the game was too weird in the end.

[Kyanion]

And I just made an example how customers have a huge impact on a developer of MMO. That is all. I do think that most of the people who left liked the old model (well, duh?) but they were replaced by new community, who seem to like being held by hand through the game.

Don't forget there have been what 100 million accounts created for WoW over the 12 years? The reasons people left are widely varied. Sure some of them left because they liked the old model and perhaps felt the game ended after WotLK, or they only liked Vanilla and hated the game afterwards. But many many people quite for totally different reasons. So it isn't fair to say that 'most' of the people that left because of the old model. That is another big issue that this thread has spawned.

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I'm not threating blizzard I am merely saying that I wont continue my sub because I feel that blizzard screw me over. I would've accepted a simple NO - yet they decided to lead vanilla people on. That is not right. I just said that and this elecybubby guy jumped in telling me that blizzard does not owe me an answer and I should just praise the Lord that they don't terminate my sub

Well Blizz DID have a lot going on with Blizzcon and all. Maybe they were going to say something after Blizzcon maybe not, but I feel like something happened that likely caused them to not say anything right now, and we all know what that was.

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and as for Wildstar - you couldn't be more wrong. People seem to think that it failed because it was hardcore? this is bullshit. There was plenty of content for the casual people. The game failed because of hundreds of bugs, stupid PvP system and - what is the biggest issue -totally non-climatic world. That is why I left - this game is too much of a joke for me. It's neither fantasy nor sci-fi, the whole lore is like a big pile of sarcastic absurd :P I had many friends who gave this game a shot and all felt the same - the game was too weird in the end.

I mean that game was a dumpster fire for many a reason. I know one of the big complaints in the chat channels, forums and so on was the crazy requirements for keying and getting to the harder content. Couple that with some really stupid game choices (PvP), massive bugs, terrible customer service on getting accounts back from hacks and other issues and the issues just compounded.

[Vorkreist]

People think its that easy for blizzard to actually shutdown a private server if the server decides to not comply with that lame cease and desist letter.
They are still on trial for about 5 years against the biggest bot providers and still not shut down.

In the end "He who must not be named" returns with even bigger numbers ( over 17k signups just for a stress test) and the added factor of showing to the whole public what kind of assholes Blizzard are.

Infracted {MoanaLisa}

[Kyanion]

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Dude, mods have asked many times to STOP talking about Private Servers. I'd love to have a discussion about potential Legacy realms from Blizz and so forth but this type of shit is NOT helping.

[Vorkreist]

Dude, mods have asked many times to STOP talking about Private Servers. I'd love to have a discussion about potential Legacy realms from Blizz and so forth but this type of shit is NOT helping.

Why weren't those rules in effect for the months the thread was even named after a private server? Oh yeah they got the memo from blizz to go full nazi against them after the Blizzcon "non-announcement" of never making legacy servers.

[Kyanion]

Why weren't those rules in effect for the months the thread was even named after a private server? Oh yeah they got the memo from blizz to go full nazi against them after the Blizzcon "non-announcement" of never making legacy servers.

Believe what you wish. There was an exception made because it was discussing a dead private server. It garnered a lot of attention but things changed when the server was going to go live again. Thus the rules are being enforced again, the thread title was changed and the first post was edited to reflect these changes. I don't make the rules here but I sure do have a laugh when you claim they are going 'full nazi' and are taking special notes from Blizz to enforce certain things.

[McNeil]

To add to the discussion, I wonder what kind of legacy servers people would be interested and when it should take place. Some poll options:

A) Legacy servers are frozen in the latest patch before TBC came out, and will no longer receive updates. These servers are released WHILE retail is running.

B) Legacy servers are frozen in the latest patch before TBC came out, and will no longer receive updates. These servers are released AFTER retail is finished and no longer receives any more content other then balancing updates.

C) Legacy servers progress with the same schedule that retail did back when it launched, with all expansions being added to the game after time. These servers are released WHILE retail is running.

D) Legacy servers progress with the same schedule that retail did back when it launched, with all expansions being added to the game after time. These servers are released AFTER retail is finished and no longer receives any more content other then balancing updates.

E) Legacy servers progress, but not with expansions. Instead they'll add new content that is fitting to its era (huge dungeons, fewer and simpler mechanics but more punishing etc). Which could mean adding stuff that they wanted to release but never had the time or resources to do it, like The Emerald Dream and Dragon Isles. These servers are released WHILE retail is running.

F) Legacy servers progress, but not with expansions. Instead they'll add new content that is fitting to its era (huge dungeons, fewer and simpler mechanics but more punishing etc). Which could mean adding stuff that they wanted to release but never had the time or resources to do it, like The Emerald Dream and Dragon Isles. These servers are released AFTER retail is finished and no longer receives any more content other then balancing updates.

G) Legacy servers get a whole HD upgrade with improved graphics, gameplay mechanics and maybe some features from retail added (though I don't see people being fond with features like LFR and followers). They would freeze the game at the latest patch though. These servers are released WHILE retail is running.

H) Legacy servers get a whole HD upgrade with improved graphics, gameplay mechanics and maybe some features from retail added (though I don't see people being fond with features like LFR and followers). They would freeze the game at the latest patch though. These servers are released AFTER retail is finished and no longer receives any more content other then balancing updates.

Even if your anti-legacy, just pick an option that says ''after retail is done'' as I assume that there's nothing to worry if such is the case.

[Morbownz]

To add to the discussion, I wonder what kind of legacy servers people would be interested and when it should take place. Some poll options:

Option D. I would think it better to stagger the release of individual servers for people that don't want to start straight away but also don't want to miss that new server hype.

I also don't want to play beyond Vanilla. I know it's all just rose-tinted goggles and really I don't know what I'm talking about, but I don't feel the desire to return to the past and play any of the other expansions, what does that prove? dunno...

[Deleted]

Uhh... that is downright, objectively false. Clients are and have to be modified

But the players are the ones with modified clients, not the server operators.

Think of it this way, if you build a parking lot, and everyone who parks there has a stolen car, you still can't sue the owner of the parking lot.