Games should be hard work?

[Viikkis]

I've seen many comments about games like WoW getting too casual. And even pure hatred against casual gamers who really just want to relax and have fun after a day of work. For example the good old raiding and epic gear in WoW. Some people feel offended because "noobs" can wear purple too and they don't have to work for it just que up and go. (To be fair everyone can still be that special snowflake with full mythic gear :P)

But I just want to know why should gaming be hard work? You know like they say "back in the day it was HARD WORK to get fully epic gear in WoW!" etc. Games are meant to be entertainment right? And I get it. Some people like to work for stuff and thats what entertains them. But why all the hate on casuals? You're not better than them. Being a god like player in WoW gives you nothing in real life (unless you're a successful professional gamer which most of us aren't).

I personally want to spare my energy for working in real life and play games like WoW casually to lay off the stress of real life. So it's kinda hilarious to see all these peeps whining how we "noobs" can get stuff even though we don't want to devote our lifes for one game.

Anyways these are just my thoughts

[Deleted]

Make a new colour item for "elite" raiders that have the same stats as the purples, they can still beat their meat and more casual players can carry on as usual.

[Grym]

Because your fun and their fun is not the same.

Your fun is get things, their fun is having better things than you.

[Gadion]

Because your fun and their fun is not the same.

Your fun is get things, their fun is having better things than you.

I would have thought their fun would come from the intrinsic value derived from being capable of doing challenging content. If it is merely about having better items, it's not for their skill, it's only for showing off and they may be at least a little vain.

[mvaliz]

Some games should be, others should be easy mindless fun. There really aren't absolutes when it comes to something like this and people need to stop acting like their opinion is the only one that matters.

Pretty much this.

In the case of WOrld of Warcraft, I believe it simply should have elements that please both, and TBH Warcraft (at least in Pandaria and hopefully in Legion) will be providing content for both casuals and hardcores.

[Deleted]

It's not so much about hard work (as in hard content), but rather about the content lasting longer than a few weeks..

You see the game has definitely been made much more accessible and the downside of that is that we're at a point now where literally everything except Mythic Raiding and high rated pvp is trivial, super easy and also over very, very quickly. This causes the game to suffer from a perpetual content drought, because after all when everyone beats the game quickly, a lot of people just have nothing left to do.

Back when everything took way longer, there was effectively much more content. So you don't necessarily have to make the game harder, in terms of punishing mechanics or things like that, but you have to make it take longer to complete the relevant things.

Instead of a reputation taking you 2 weeks to get exalted with, it should take you 2 months. Instead of earning enough gold to buy that item in 2 days it should take you 4. The game needs to be far more grindey.

You get the idea.

Now in Warlords, the game definitely suffers from what I mentioned above, but in addition to that there also is a definitive lack of content compared to other expansions, making things even worse.

[Nazrark]

It happens every day in life. Someone wants to have better things than the rest of everyone else and they (the rest) shouldn't be able to get it. The closest you can get to it now in real life is Hypercars. There are 7 Lykan HyperSport cars in the world and they sit as centerpieces to a collection. Saying look what I have that you cannot have.

Bringing this to games though. A large majority of high end raiders (myself previously included) put in a lot of work to get the best items. For some people just having it wasn't enough, they wanted it so that nobody else could have it. For myself it was basically increased numbers that I needed in order to progress through the game.

I generally enjoy how hard games become when you turn up the difficulty. Sins of the Solar Empire: Rebellion becomes god near impossible to beat when the AI are at their hardest difficulty. If you have two to three players working together against 6 Cruel AI is when it becomes fun.

[Revi]

Depends on the game. I liked WoW a lot better when I couldn't get the newest tier and some raids were so far beyond my reach I could only see them in videos. It was cool. And when I started raiding seriously and got all that hard-to-get stuff and saw all those hard-to-reach places eventually, that was cool too.

Shifting casual play from dungeons to easy-mode raids really killed the excitement of both dungeons and raids for me.

Being a "noob" early on didn't mean you didn't have stuff to do, it just meant you did different stuff.

Just my personal taste though, I'm sure a lot of people prefer the current model.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not so much about hard work (as in hard content), but rather about the content lasting longer than a few weeks..

You see the game has definitely been made much more accessible and the downside of that is that we're at a point now where literally everything except Mythic Raiding and high rated pvp is trivial, super easy and also over very, very quickly. This causes the game to suffer from a perpetual content drought, because after all when everyone beats the game quickly, a lot of people just have nothing left to do.

Back when everything took way longer, there was effectively much more content. So you don't necessarily have to make the game harder, in terms of punishing mechanics or things like that, but you have to make it take longer to complete the relevant things.

Instead of a reputation taking you 2 weeks to get exalted with, it should take you 2 months. Instead of earning enough gold to buy that item in 2 days it should take you 4. The game needs to be far more grindey.

You get the idea.

That too. Working your way through many levels of difficulty and gear requirements kept you occupied. Being pushed past all content into the newest tier removes a huge chunk of the game and leaves you with long breaks of repeating the same content long after it's gone stale.

[Deleted]

Depends on the game. I liked WoW a lot better when I couldn't get the newest tier and some raids were so far beyond my reach I could only see them in videos. It was cool. And when I started raiding seriously and got all that hard-to-get stuff and saw all those hard-to-reach places eventually, that was cool too.

Shifting casual play from dungeons to easy-mode raids really killed the excitement of both dungeons and raids for me.

Being a "noob" early on didn't mean you didn't have stuff to do, it just meant you did different stuff.

Just my personal taste though, I'm sure a lot of people prefer the current model.

- - - Updated - - -



That too. Working your way through many levels of difficulty and gear requirements kept you occupied. Being pushed past all content into the newest tier removes a huge chunk of the game and leaves you with long breaks of repeating the same content long after it's gone stale.

Yes the part about the tier skipping is also very much worth mentioning. It's so sad to see so much of their content immediately and pretty much lastingly made irrelevant as soon as the next raid tier releases.

[Allenseiei]

It's not so much about hard work (as in hard content), but rather about the content lasting longer than a few weeks..

You see the game has definitely been made much more accessible and the downside of that is that we're at a point now where literally everything except Mythic Raiding and high rated pvp is trivial, super easy and also over very, very quickly. This causes the game to suffer from a perpetual content drought, because after all when everyone beats the game quickly, a lot of people just have nothing left to do.

Back when everything took way longer, there was effectively much more content. So you don't necessarily have to make the game harder, in terms of punishing mechanics or things like that, but you have to make it take longer to complete the relevant things.

Instead of a reputation taking you 2 weeks to get exalted with, it should take you 2 months. Instead of earning enough gold to buy that item in 2 days it should take you 4. The game needs to be far more grindey.

You get the idea.

Now in Warlords, the game definitely suffers from what I mentioned above, but in addition to that there also is a definitive lack of content compared to other expansions, making things even worse.

You said it all +1

[Steve French]

No you should just have everything handed to you. That sounds super fun, the game can just play itself for you and you can sit and watch. Who would want to play a game where you actually have to do challenging content and earn things. That surely sounds like a second job, right?

- - - Updated - - -

Just my personal taste though, I'm sure a lot of people prefer the current model.

I'm sure some people like it, but the sub loss tends to point to the majority not being too crazy about it. The sub loss was so bad blizz stopped reporting the numbers.

[Darkeon]

Going by title alone..

I'd say there needs to be an healthy balance between "Hard work" and "total breeze through".

It has to be entertaining enough to not feel like a job - and it has to be engaging to the player.

[Powerogue]

It usually depends on the game. The thing is that longer effort tends to result in a more satisfying "rush" when completed. I think there's a niche for both easy and hard games depending on what people are looking to get out of them.

[Gheld]

Games shouldn't be work at all.

There's a difference between a challenge and work. A challenge is a leisure thing. Accepting the challenge should be fun. Failing to meet the challenge should be fun. And eventually overcoming the challenge should definitely be fun.

A game should provide various levels of challenge for various levels of skill. But should ultimately always reward an honest effort with something, whether it be cut scenes, or free hats.

[Jester Joe]

Moving this to the more correct forum location, since it's not about World of Warcraft (it's just used as an example), that happens to be Video Game Discussion.

General Off Topic is more for events that don't fit into other forum locations (Like current events and what not).

[derpkitteh]

games should have a choice to be hard or not.

forcing only one path is bad.

[Gheld]

Pretty much, yeah.

Part of the issue is that there aren't many ways to separate yourself from the crowd in MMOs, and people so desperately want that. So they demand that the game cater to that by effectively barring as many people as possible from progressing by increasing grinds, increasing timesinks, and so on.

That's just bad design though. People taking on a cooperative endeavor shouldn't be lead to feel as though they are competing against each other.

The Invincible Sword of the Bad Guy only drops once a month in order to milk as much subscription fee out of players as possible. So ultimately people who should be stoked for each other end up not being.

Every honest effort should be rewarded. But the typical MMO model has devolved into, 1 out of every 100 honest efforts are rewarded.

It's not because the content is too hard or too easy. Things like personal loot and bonus rolls in say WoW are a step in the right direction, but still waaaaaaaaay overdue. A step in the right direction after the gig has already moved on to the next town.

[BubbaDuke]

It's really up to the developers as to who they want to appeal to. WoW is definitely capable of catering to people looking for either styles of play, though. Especially with the numerous difficulties that are available for raids these days.

[FobManX]

Games shouldn't be work at all.

There's a difference between a challenge and work. A challenge is a leisure thing. Accepting the challenge should be fun. Failing to meet the challenge should be fun. And eventually overcoming the challenge should definitely be fun.

A game should provide various levels of challenge for various levels of skill. But should ultimately always reward an honest effort with something, whether it be cut scenes, or free hats.

Exactly this. Couldn't have said it better myself.

[endersblade]

There's a difference between a challenging game and a game that feels like a job.

When you accomplish your goal, you shouldn't feel like you just put in a full day's work. When you sign out for the day/night, you shouldn't feel stressed out like you do when you are working. It should feel like you put forth some effort and accomplished a goal.

For a lot of people, whether they admit to it or not, WoW plays like a job. And to me, that does not sound like any fun at all. When I get home from work, I want to sit down and enjoy my free time. That doesn't mean 'clocking in' to WoW and concentrating on it like I do a job, to the point where I have to take headache meds during my relax time.

Make the game challenging, yes. Make it feel like I had to put some thought and effort into obtaining my purplz. But don't make it a spreadsheet game, where I need to eek out every little bit of pain I can just to make it happen. I want to enjoy the time I play, not regret it.