WOLCEN : Lords of Mayhem (Indie ARPG)

[Aggrophobic]

All over the US there's still people with no access to any internet other than Satellite and that is complete ASS for online gaming, 1k-2k+ pings.

That is so odd. Heck a country like Thailand has better internet connection than the US.

[Aliven]

I suspect that they're not doing it because that would give people only more ammunition to demand things, and they'd rather put their resources into building an entirely new game in D4 rather than trying to fix the conceptual problems of D3.

At this point they're probably happy to rest on D3/RoS sales and play maintenance mode with the occasional small-team update like the new sets (which quite evidently did not have a lot of work put into them given) rather than run the risk of gambling on MTX and possible PR headaches resulting from a new influx of customers paying money and demanding more content they don't want to spend money to provide.

I'm not saying that's a GOOD decision, but the evidence seems to be pointing toward it.

The future definitely belongs to MTX-based models, and I'm fine with that. D3 missed the boat, that's all.

Imagine in this day and age complaining that there is a game without microtransaction.

Its like you want to get abused...

[Wildmoon]

Imagine in this day and age complaining that there is a game without microtransaction.

Its like you want to get abused...

People's expectations have changed. They expect a game like this to be constantly updated with meaty content in the time frame of every few month.

[Kelimbror]

Imagine in this day and age complaining that there is a game without microtransaction.

Its like you want to get abused...

Or possibly this genre is one of the only ones to provide balanced MTX for ongoing and frequent content? And really we're talking about hoping these games adopt PoE's MTX strategy and not some other crazy ass one. ARPG's need content at a frequency that paying for it each time is offputting enough to simply not play. Having a wardrobe for whales with a rotating content supply across seasonal releases is perfect for keeping content funded.

Apart from PoE's stashes (which to me is like purchasing the game TBH), every $$ I've spent on that game is out of the literal goodwill/enjoyment part of my wallet. They've figured out how to get me to drop $10-$50 every 3-6 months and make me feel good about it. The fairness of the system makes you realize the literal connection of paying to continue supporting the game and content you want, without the burden of having to do it.

[KrayZ33]

Yeah, it’s not hard to be “one of the better looking arpgs”. You could compare it to popular arpgs like diablo and Poe, which are super old. Or some indie arpgs that probably didn’t have that EA money to start things off. Wolcen looks ok, but don’t run it off as something spectacular

Personally would take much worse visuals for any semblance of coherent endgame, but that’s not coming any time soon.

There is really hardly anything to complain about in terms of graphics in this game. The surroundings look great and are detailed, the animation s are very fluid and look like they've been.... - what's it called again... where they put lots of sensors on a dude, it does escape my mind right now - whatever, you get what I mean
You'll just have to take a look at the guys inside stormfall when the escapees get into the upper area.




Character models look badass, you can look like a space marine or whatever you want. It's one of the few games released so far that gets armor and transmogs right - the fact that you can use caster gear pieces on warrior gear (and vice versa) and have so many slots to dye and transmog individually deserves great praise.

I just wish they'd add different idle stance animations.

[Biomega]

Imagine in this day and age complaining that there is a game without microtransaction.

Its like you want to get abused...

There's good MTX, and there's bad MTX.

Obviously nobody wants a broken game and be sold the fixes piecemeal.

But plenty of people would be more than happy to have D3 as it is, and just pay for MTX on extra stuff like stash space, cosmetics, etc. etc. as they already have it in Asia. Players who don't want to pay anything don't have to, and it'd be the same for them - however, MTX would mean a constant revenue stream, which in turn would mean incentive for them to keep releasing content that keeps the paying customers playing. And the non-paying customers benefit from that, too.

That's how good MTX works - the whales support the fishes. It's a sensible business model that's been proven to work by many other games, and while not without pitfalls and bad apples, is probably going to be the future.

[Wildmoon]

There is really hardly anything to complain about in terms of graphics in this game.


Character models look badass, you can look like a space marine or whatever you want. It's one of the few games released so far that gets armor and transmogs right.

Look like WoW's armor lol.

[Beastiel]

Apart from PoE's stashes (which to me is like purchasing the game TBH), every $$ I've spent on that game is out of the literal goodwill/enjoyment part of my wallet. They've figured out how to get me to drop $10-$50 every 3-6 months and make me feel good about it.

I always love when they drop a new 500$ dollar support pack, i will literally never not buy one. I will never not support what is easily the best arpg ever made for our little currency-obsessed niche community.

and i feel better about spending every 480$ on PoE than I did about paying 60$ for diablo 3, or the monthly 15$ on wow during the short periods i'm subscribed.

[Aliven]

People's expectations have changed. They expect a game like this to be constantly updated with meaty content in the time frame of every few month.

I dont. So dont use broad terms...

- - - Updated - - -

Or possibly this genre is one of the only ones to provide balanced MTX for ongoing and frequent content? And really we're talking about hoping these games adopt PoE's MTX strategy and not some other crazy ass one. ARPG's need content at a frequency that paying for it each time is offputting enough to simply not play. Having a wardrobe for whales with a rotating content supply across seasonal releases is perfect for keeping content funded.

Apart from PoE's stashes (which to me is like purchasing the game TBH), every $$ I've spent on that game is out of the literal goodwill/enjoyment part of my wallet. They've figured out how to get me to drop $10-$50 every 3-6 months and make me feel good about it. The fairness of the system makes you realize the literal connection of paying to continue supporting the game and content you want, without the burden of having to do it.

I dont, im fully happy running randomized dungeons and ladder system provide reset button every few months.

But i also dont expect to be entertained by one game for my life.

[Gorsameth]

I always love when they drop a new 500$ dollar support pack, i will literally never not buy one. I will never not support what is easily the best arpg ever made for our little currency-obsessed niche community.

And thanks to the way these business models work you don't have to. Someone else pays for you.

The sad truth is that a game like PoE couldn't exist without overprized MTX sales to 'Whales'. You can't do this with box sales because GGG keeps investing money (developers and time) into the game to make seasons that keep people hooked.
This is where D3 fell short. Without ongoing revenue they can't justify spending money on making new mechanics for seasons so you get the bare minimum.

[Aliven]

There's good MTX, and there's bad MTX.

Obviously nobody wants a broken game and be sold the fixes piecemeal.

But plenty of people would be more than happy to have D3 as it is, and just pay for MTX on extra stuff like stash space, cosmetics, etc. etc. as they already have it in Asia. Players who don't want to pay anything don't have to, and it'd be the same for them - however, MTX would mean a constant revenue stream, which in turn would mean incentive for them to keep releasing content that keeps the paying customers playing. And the non-paying customers benefit from that, too.

That's how good MTX works - the whales support the fishes. It's a sensible business model that's been proven to work by many other games, and while not without pitfalls and bad apples, is probably going to be the future.

Nope, there are no good microtransaction from consumer point of view.

Firsly it draw the content AWAY from the game, those models need to be created by the same artists and devs who create the stuff to put in game and not in the store. So every item, no matter how cosmetic, put time and money away from actually putting content into a game.

Secondly, we all want to look good, and they damn well know that. While what is good look for one is not the same for other the basic principle is the same. So putting content behind a paywall when we already payed for a game is shitty.

Thirdly it preys on insecure, those with some sort mental illness. Dont be fooled, the people who are WHALES are not some milionaires or Henrys Cavills of this world who spend 1% of their income for comestics only. Whales are everymans who goes into dept to buy that. Whales are people who life is ruined while industry does whatever it can to dehumanize whales as some sort of rich kid with more money than time and has the audacity to say it is OK. While you may say if not for video games then those same people would spend those money on gambling, alcohol, drugs, etc and you are right! They would, because they are irresponsible with money or for example, have struggles in life or in their mental health. But do we really need to says that systems that prey on the weak have a place in our hobby? Everyone knows that drugs, gambling and alcohol can and WOULD ruin your life or make it harder if abused we seems to be ok, because WHALE is a RICH KID WITH MILIONS.

Truth is, he is not... Same as drunks, junkies are not milionaires. They are addicts. We should help them and not prey upon them. And for what? To have cheap entertainment?

Another point (dunno how to say? Fourthly?) if you put anything into the store YOU WANT FOR IT TO SELL! Because you spend time, money to create it. So you create systems in the game to incentivize spending money into stuff you put into the store. For example - you gear look like shit without spending real money. Or you give small amount of premium currency to give and illusion everything can be earned while playing (and not saying that people who spend more time in game are more willing to pay extra money because of some fucked up sense of "supporting the poor devs..."). Or make system when you pay and buy you ALWAYS have lefover premium currency that just sit there and begs to be spend. All of those and more are here to incentivize spending spending spending. Or you failed because those manhours could be spend for example into creating expansion and not "optional pixels that look pretty".

While microtransactions have a place in a full free to play title, as a neccessary evil (but EVIL none the less) they have no fucking place in a games you buy with real money. Make great expansion, big DLC. If it is good people will buy it.

In short, fuck mictransactions and everyone who supports them.

[Wildmoon]

I dont. So dont use broad terms...

Don't be pedantic. I am not talking about you specifically.

[KrayZ33]

Look like WoW's armor lol.

lol indeed (because it does so not)
I wish it would look like that in WoW though.

I'd say it looks more like Warhammer.

[Biomega]

Nope, there are no good microtransaction from consumer point of view.

Firsly it draw the content AWAY from the game, those models need to be created by the same artists and devs who create the stuff to put in game and not in the store. So every item, no matter how cosmetic, put time and money away from actually putting content into a game.

That's just plain faulty reasoning. Without MTX to provide revenue, you don't actually GET anything (or get only very little). You're assuming they'd design stuff anyway and instead of putting it in for free, they're charging for it - but that's blatantly untrue. And it's the whole reason we WANT MTX: to actually get new stuff, rather than the drips and drops they provide in their maintenance mode model.

Secondly, we all want to look good, and they damn well know that. While what is good look for one is not the same for other the basic principle is the same. So putting content behind a paywall when we already payed for a game is shitty.

You're also assuming that MTX is the ONLY way to get things, when many MTX systems actually allow you to earn things for free, too, just at a very slow rate - and, again, all the stuff that we're getting we wouldn't be getting AT ALL otherwise so nothing changes, really.

Thirdly it preys on insecure, those with some sort mental illness. Dont be fooled, the people who are WHALES are not some milionaires or Henrys Cavills of this world who spend 1% of their income for comestics only. Whales are everymans who goes into dept to buy that.

That's just needlessly hyperbolic. Even in games designed for immature audiences, the percentage of people who "go into debt" to buy MTX is minuscule. And D3 is not designed for those people; neither is Wolcen. They're mature, even R-rated titles aimed at adults. Adults who have disposable income, and the maturity to not sell their home for a gold dagger (a notion which, quite frankly, only makes one person sound "mentally ill" here, and it's not the buyer).

If you don't have the self-restraint not to mortgage your car for a pair of D3 wings, you have deep-seated problems that go far beyond any potential MTX model.

Another point (dunno how to say? Fourthly?) if you put anything into the store YOU WANT FOR IT TO SELL! Because you spend time, money to create it. So you create systems in the game to incentivize spending money into stuff you put into the store. For example - you gear look like shit without spending real money. Or you give small amount of premium currency to give and illusion everything can be earned while playing (and not saying that people who spend more time in game are more willing to pay extra money because of some fucked up sense of "supporting the poor devs..."). Or make system when you pay and buy you ALWAYS have lefover premium currency that just sit there and begs to be spend. All of those and more are here to incentivize spending spending spending. Or you failed because those manhours could be spend for example into creating expansion and not "optional pixels that look pretty".

These are actually valid concerns. You do not want MTX to completely take over all design decisions, and it's very true that there's games out there where this is absolutely the case. However, there's also plenty of games out there where it's NOT the case. PoE is the usual example people cite in the AARPG market for a game that does MTX very fairly.

The counterargument to this is, once again, the maintenance mode problem: without MTX, you'd have far less content; both paid AND free content (because you use free content to lure people into buying). Even if the free content you get is missing parts that are locked behind MTX paywalls, it's still more than you'd get without MTX, which is usually nothing (or very little). THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MTX.

While microtransactions have a place in a full free to play title, as a neccessary evil (but EVIL none the less) they have no fucking place in a games you buy with real money. Make great expansion, big DLC. If it is good people will buy it.

You need to realize the hypocrisy here, though. "DLC" is just a fancy name for a big MTX, because all of the objections raised apply to that as well. If their model relies on regular releases of paid DLC, there's the same incentives to hold back on design and shift things to paid parts rather than free. In fact, with DLCs that are hard-locked chunks of content (like expansions) you probably get LESS as a player not willing to pay extra than you would in an MTX model, which relies on a free base experience augmented by paid MTX (and which, in turn, benefits non-paying players more).

Personally, I'd much rather them release regular free content for everyone, and have people choose what optional stuff they want to buy via MTX - with the money people choose to put into that financing the content updates for everyone, paying or not.

[Aliven]

That's just plain faulty reasoning. Without MTX to provide revenue, you don't actually GET anything (or get only very little). You're assuming they'd design stuff anyway and instead of putting it in for free, they're charging for it - but that's blatantly untrue. And it's the whole reason we WANT MTX: to actually get new stuff, rather than the drips and drops they provide in their maintenance mode model.


You're also assuming that MTX is the ONLY way to get things, when many MTX systems actually allow you to earn things for free, too, just at a very slow rate - and, again, all the stuff that we're getting we wouldn't be getting AT ALL otherwise so nothing changes, really.


That's just needlessly hyperbolic. Even in games designed for immature audiences, the percentage of people who "go into debt" to buy MTX is minuscule. And D3 is not designed for those people; neither is Wolcen. They're mature, even R-rated titles aimed at adults. Adults who have disposable income, and the maturity to not sell their home for a gold dagger (a notion which, quite frankly, only makes one person sound "mentally ill" here, and it's not the buyer).

If you don't have the self-restraint not to mortgage your car for a pair of D3 wings, you have deep-seated problems that go far beyond any potential MTX model.


These are actually valid concerns. You do not want MTX to completely take over all design decisions, and it's very true that there's games out there where this is absolutely the case. However, there's also plenty of games out there where it's NOT the case. PoE is the usual example people cite in the AARPG market for a game that does MTX very fairly.

The counterargument to this is, once again, the maintenance mode problem: without MTX, you'd have far less content; both paid AND free content (because you use free content to lure people into buying). Even if the free content you get is missing parts that are locked behind MTX paywalls, it's still more than you'd get without MTX, which is usually nothing (or very little). THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF MTX.


You need to realize the hypocrisy here, though. "DLC" is just a fancy name for a big MTX, because all of the objections raised apply to that as well. If their model relies on regular releases of paid DLC, there's the same incentives to hold back on design and shift things to paid parts rather than free. In fact, with DLCs that are hard-locked chunks of content (like expansions) you probably get LESS as a player not willing to pay extra than you would in an MTX model, which relies on a free base experience augmented by paid MTX (and which, in turn, benefits non-paying players more).

Personally, I'd much rather them release regular free content for everyone, and have people choose what optional stuff they want to buy via MTX - with the money people choose to put into that financing the content updates for everyone, paying or not.

Big MTX is actually oxymoron, i hope you understand that.

Yes, you have no empathy because you want MORE AND NOW! I get that. You want constant entertainment because ending something is bad and scary and be damned if somebody stupid go into debt, because hey, they are few so i wont bother.

Actually i wont bother, there is so many wrong in your reply that it is mind boogling.

EDIT: oooh and if you think Grinding Gear Games and PoE is you friendly neiborhood ARPG then you are naive :P They are not and they see you as nothing more that walking money bag. Even IF they were decent not anymore, they are owned hard by Tencent Games. But maybe they never were because those gud bois were the guys who sold the company to China Goverment.

- - - Updated - - -

Don't be pedantic. I am not talking about you specifically.

But i was talking about person i quoted. I did not say "the players want to be abused". Just that person

And if speaking broadly - shall i name Torchlight 1/2 (and recent flop of Trochlight Frontiiers), Diablo 1/2/3, Grim Dawn as a proof that nope, the expectations of general public of ARPG havent changed? All those titles dont have ounce of microtransactions. They have DLC, which are fair. I dont remember if Inquisitor Martyr hat mtx so wont speak on that (or chaosbane).

And well, after reading his replies i can confirm, he not only want to be abused he likes it and support the abuse for everyone because then he can play games for free.

[Biomega]

Yes, you have no empathy because you want MORE AND NOW! I get that. You want constant entertainment because ending something is bad and scary and be damned if somebody stupid go into debt, because hey, they are few so i wont bother.

If your whole argument is "MTX are bad because people end up homeless after buying too much stuff on Candycrush" I think we don't need to talk further, because that is beyond ludicrous.

Actually i wont bother, there is so many wrong in your reply that it is mind boogling.

Yes, why bother providing actual structured arguments when you can just yell "BUT IT RUINS LIVES! (source: dude, trust me)" real loud and then go "you're just wrong" when someone calls out the BS.

EDIT: oooh and if you think Grinding Gear Games and PoE is you friendly neiborhood ARPG then you are naive :P They are not and they see you as nothing more that walking money bag. Even IF they were decent not anymore, they are owned hard by Tencent Games. But maybe they never were because those gud bois were the guys who sold the company to China Goverment.

The borderline racist conspiracy theory stuff aside, nobody is saying these aren't companies trying to make money; that's always a given. But there's good ways to use MTX to do so and there's bad ways, and all in all, PoE falls more on the good side than the bad side.

You want to just pay $60 for a game and be done with it.

But have you thought about people who can't afford that? Who rely on MTX-based systems to play anything at all?

Also, have you done the actual math? Have you checked how much you get for $60 worth of MTX, and whether that adds up to enough of a game for you to warrant a purchase?

Or are you only interested in incoherent vitriol without any substantive thought behind it?

[Wildmoon]

But i was talking about person i quoted. I did not say "the players want to be abused". Just that person

And if speaking broadly - shall i name Torchlight 1/2 (and recent flop of Trochlight Frontiiers), Diablo 1/2/3, Grim Dawn as a proof that nope, the expectations of general public of ARPG havent changed? All those titles dont have ounce of microtransactions. They have DLC, which are fair. I dont remember if Inquisitor Martyr hat mtx so wont speak on that (or chaosbane).

And well, after reading his replies i can confirm, he not only want to be abused he likes it and support the abuse for everyone because then he can play games for

You quoted me...

- - - Updated - - -

If your whole argument is "MTX are bad because people end up homeless after buying too much stuff on Candycrush" I think we don't need to talk further, because that is beyond ludicrous.


Yes, why bother providing actual structured arguments when you can just yell "BUT IT RUINS LIVES! (source: dude, trust me)" real loud and then go "you're just wrong" when someone calls out the BS.


The borderline racist conspiracy theory stuff aside, nobody is saying these aren't companies trying to make money; that's always a given. But there's good ways to use MTX to do so and there's bad ways, and all in all, PoE falls more on the good side than the bad side.

You want to just pay $60 for a game and be done with it.

But have you thought about people who can't afford that? Who rely on MTX-based systems to play anything at all?

Also, have you done the actual math? Have you checked how much you get for $60 worth of MTX, and whether that adds up to enough of a game for you to warrant a purchase?

Or are you only interested in incoherent vitriol without any substantive thought behind it?

PoE's stuffs are extremely overpriced though.

[Biomega]

PoE's stuffs are extremely overpriced though.

Compared to what?

Buying the base game for $60 and then paying $30 or whatever every few months for an expansion/DLC? Because that's the alternative (or having nothing at all).

You don't get stuff for free. SOMEONE needs to pay for it SOMEHOW.

[Aliven]

If your whole argument is "MTX are bad because people end up homeless after buying too much stuff on Candycrush" I think we don't need to talk further, because that is beyond ludicrous.


Yes, why bother providing actual structured arguments when you can just yell "BUT IT RUINS LIVES! (source: dude, trust me)" real loud and then go "you're just wrong" when someone calls out the BS.


The borderline racist conspiracy theory stuff aside, nobody is saying these aren't companies trying to make money; that's always a given. But there's good ways to use MTX to do so and there's bad ways, and all in all, PoE falls more on the good side than the bad side.

You want to just pay $60 for a game and be done with it.

But have you thought about people who can't afford that? Who rely on MTX-based systems to play anything at all?

Also, have you done the actual math? Have you checked how much you get for $60 worth of MTX, and whether that adds up to enough of a game for you to warrant a purchase?

Or are you only interested in incoherent vitriol without any substantive thought behind it?

I wrote 4 objective way HOW mtx are bad from a consumer standpoint. With arguments. Your are "im poor and want entertainment". I dont care, grow a spine.

Tencent Games is in full support of China Goverment, selling something to them is selling it into China Goverment. Its like common knowledge. And yes, China Goverment is fucked up, that is not racist.

There is no good MTX. Wrote 4 reasons why. Even in f2p games they are viewed as something to just move past (hint: you dont do that for good things) because well, game is cheap so a little non ideal situation is meh.

I dont give a flying fuck is somebody say they cant afford PREMIUM THINGS (video games are premium) unless those things are overpriced as fuck (most of all digital deluxe editions now days). Because they are non essential. If you cant afford video game well, fuck. Move on. I cant afford learning to pilot helicopter but would REALLY want to. Or expensive vacations in the best 5 stars hotels. Or the first printing of Guttenberg Bible. Or spend time and money to learn how to play instrument.
And again - in f2p titles they are neccessary evil. Neccessary evil is NOT a good thing.

You cant math experience. You simply cant, one of the best experience for me was Firewatch which i spend whole 1 day playing and still believe it is one of the best money spend. This is a fault created by the consumers which devs happily oblidge (create long games to justify the cost) instead of creating meaningfull experiences with the same amount of time. Because people are dumb. Movie ticket also isnt cheap and provide what? 2 hours of entertainment? Do you dont go to see movies because 2 hours are not worth per cent spent? Do if somebody spit on another person you are happy because he get free moisture?
Do you understand why that logic is flawed?

You are projecting so much your stuff into me.

[Kelimbror]

Firsly it draw the content AWAY from the game, those models need to be created by the same artists and devs who create the stuff to put in game and not in the store. So every item, no matter how cosmetic, put time and money away from actually putting content into a game.

Assumption bias. Reality is that a different team will work on things like cosmetic appearances and FX. In real real reality, they outsource that shit to the cheapest bidder. This is a fallacy to assume producing Item/Content A detracts from Item/Content B, especially when B funds the entire production of A,B,C,D......ZZZZ

Argument 1: Invalid

Secondly, we all want to look good, and they damn well know that. While what is good look for one is not the same for other the basic principle is the same. So putting content behind a paywall when we already payed for a game is shitty.

We all want to be rich. We all want hot spouses. We all want want want want. This is a terrible mentality. You are judging others for saying they are poor and want things for free when you're right here asking for everything 'for one cost to yourself'. That's the same thing.

Additionally, if you are playing a game for gameplay second and visual appearance of an Avatar trumps that for you, then you should move on to things like the Sims and Second Life.

Argument 2: Invalid.

Thirdly it preys on insecure, those with some sort mental illness.

I assume you're only talking about gambling boxes here, otherwise you could say everything in a Capitalist society preys on the 'mentally ill'. Additionally, you just said you wanted all of this stuff in the game. Do you have a self proclaimed mental illness about looking fancy that deters you from experiencing games normally? Do you assume everyone else has your similar illness and lack of self-awareness/control?

I shouldn't even need to say this, but --
Agument 3: Invalid

Dont be fooled, the people who are WHALES are not some milionaires or Henrys Cavills of this world who spend 1% of their income for comestics only. Whales are everymans who goes into dept to buy that

Show me this data. No data, no proof, no argument. I'd wager there's a mix of people in this population, but just on sheer buying power mathematical logic would suggest the majority of people with more money will buy more things at higher cost. This is simple economics. This is a fallacy on either side you are trying to argue.

Argument 4: Invalid.

Side Note: From your closing statement, it seems you are the person who has an individual problem controlling themselves with microtransactions and/or had a really bad experience wanting to look pretty when Johnny Awesome rode in circles around you on his fancy mount wearing the new Summer Dress. I'd suggest you leave your own confirmation bias and jilted narrative at the door and bring some logic and facts with you next time.

ARGUMENTS INVALID.