[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Coniferous]

So if the male power was tainted and the world broke they didn't fail? That is a success? The men were just as successful on the show as they were in the books. Lews was arrogant in the books which is why a split started to form in the Hall of Servants and why he did his plan with out full support anyways. Were the Women Aes Sedi not left to pick up the pieces in the book as well?

The books always focused on women Aes Sedai being good and Male Aes Sedai being bad. I think you might have read a knock off copy of the books if you never picked up on that theme before.

So, Lanfear, the Aes Sedai who released the Dark One in the first place, was good?

It was a success because they were losing the war and it was a desperate attempt to stop him. He was sealed for 4000 years. And yes, the women were left to pick out the pieces, but it's the omitted details that paint the clear picture of the showrunners' motivations.

In the books, a woman frees the dark one and they are losing the subsequent war when men seal him up. The Dark One's "counterstroke" was to taint Saidin, which causes all men to go insane.

In the TV show, no mention of the women who freed him in the first place, no mention of the losing of the war, just "arrogant" men trying to cage darkness.

In the books there are good and bad men and women. It's not one sided. The TV show for some reason is.

[rhorle]

So, Lanfear, the Aes Sedai who released the Dark One in the first place, was good?

Lmao. Your counter is really that one woman being bad means good can't be used to refer to any woman?

[Coniferous]

Lmao. Your counter is really that one woman being bad means good can't be used to refer to any woman?

She's not some random person. She's the person who started the war by freeing the Dark One, an event providing context for the attempt to cage him that is critical to understanding what happened. The TV show leaves this out and just states that arrogant men tried to seal away darkness, ignoring that they were trying to seal him away because he had just gotten free and was winning a war against them.

And half the Forsaken were women. There were plenty of good and bad from either gender.

So again:

Book: Woman frees dark one > Dark One winning war > Men cage him in a desperate gambit > Dark One makes men go mad
Show: Dragon leads arrogant men to attempt to cage darkness. Women tell him he's going to fail and the world will break and men go mad.

[rhorle]

Book: Woman frees dark one > Dark One winning war > Men cage him in a desperate gambit > Dark One makes men go mad
Show: Dragon leads arrogant men to attempt to cage darkness. Women tell him he's going to fail and the world will break and men go mad.

The Women told him he was going to fail in the books as well. It is why they didn't do what Lews suggested earlier in the War. Latra opposed him and it caused a split along gendered lines. The books set up the woman Aes Sedi as the good ones and the males as the bad ones. One, or a few, woman being evil doesn't change that at all. Lmao.

[Shadowferal]

So Nyneave tracking Lan isn't relevant to people whining that Nyneave knew how to track something Lan could not? The only ones forgetting select things are those who are hating on everything done.

Moiraine told Lan where she was going. But your fucked up logic seems to demand he needed to track her down...a woman he's been with for decades... All of which you can't seem to remember.

[Kreuger]

Watched the finale earlier today. Had read reviews about it earlier so knew what to expect, wasnt a disaster but it was far from a good ending of a season.

[Coniferous]

The Women told him he was going to fail in the books as well. It is why they didn't do what Lews suggested earlier in the War. Latra opposed him and it caused a split along gendered lines. The books set up the woman Aes Sedi as the good ones and the males as the bad ones. One, or a few, woman being evil doesn't change that at all. Lmao.

The book doesn't portray the strike on Shayol Ghul as a failure. They caged him. It was basically a truce - he got stuck in a cage for a while but was going to get free eventually, and yes, there was the Breaking. The women had a different plan but that doesn't mean the male plan was bad, and the books don't say that it was - in fact, Lews Therin only tried his plan after the women's plan was apparently failing because they had lost access to the Terangreal (because, again, they were losing the war). Yes, they say Lew Therin is arrogant, but he's also a bold general who wins lots of battles against long odds.

And once again, it was not one woman. It was half the forsaken. It was many of the Aes Sedai. Talking to you is like watching the show, you ignore all the things that are bad about women and good about men, and just focus on the parts that fit your "men bad, women good" narrative. That's the only explanation for why you seem to think the omission of Lanfear from the plot, the transition from "woman frees dark one, man cage him" to "arrogant men break the world randomly trying to cage him" is irrelevant.

[Gumble]

As I said, he is the group the show is aimed at. He hates everything that isn't him. Just ignore and move on. Sadly they could have aimed for so much higher.

[rhorle]

Moiraine told Lan where she was going. But your fucked up logic seems to demand he needed to track her down...a woman he's been with for decades... All of which you can't seem to remember.

How did she tell him where she was going if he didn't know she left and masked the bond? It doesn't matter if he has been with her for decades or not. He was also hiding his tracks for decades in the books but still got bested by Nyneave.

[Shadowferal]

As I said, he is the group the show is aimed at. He hates everything that isn't him. Just ignore and move on. Sadly they could have aimed for so much higher.

...or so went my thought regarding his posts.

[rhorle]

The book doesn't portray the strike on Shayol Ghul as a failure. They caged him. It was basically a truce - he got stuck in a cage for a while but was going to get free eventually, and yes, there was the Breaking. The women had a different plan but that doesn't mean the male plan was bad, and the books don't say that it was - in fact, Lews Therin only tried his plan after the women's plan was apparently failing because they had lost access to the Terangreal (because, again, they were losing the war). Yes, they say Lew Therin is arrogant, but he's also a bold general who wins lots of battles against long odds.

The entire reason why there was a split in the Hall of Servants was because there was disagreement over Lews plan. So you are trying to say Latra started essentially a civil war over a plan she thought was good? It being 5, 10, 15, or a hundred woman who were evil still doesn't change that the books set up the woman Aes Sedai as good and men Aes Sedi as bad.

The best part is you just stated that the books set up Lews as arrogant while at the same time saying the show changed it to him being arrogant. Lmao.

[Xath]

The Women told him he was going to fail in the books as well. It is why they didn't do what Lews suggested earlier in the War. Latra opposed him and it caused a split along gendered lines. The books set up the woman Aes Sedi as the good ones and the males as the bad ones. One, or a few, woman being evil doesn't change that at all. Lmao.

You are beyond delusional. They also didn't fail yes the breaking was bad but they still resealed the dark one for several thousand years along with the Forsaken. It was about half and half forsaken wise and at least 25% of the tower was black ajah. So no it was not men bad women good in the books just in the show. Just stop posting if you clearly haven't read the books and are just looking up wiki entries.

[Shadowferal]

WTF?

Ok, so Nynaeave tells Lan she tracked Moiraine and not him, and that he can track her too because she has a tell. Of course the showrunner just made this up to give Lan an excuse to go running through the Blight on his own. There is no tell and if there was, they will never explain it, and that’s bad writing. That’s the writers saying the audience will be too dumb to see through that and going with it. Sorry, but are your average Fantasy fans dumbo’s who can’t follow complicated plots? Nope, by and large I tend to find most fantasy readers pretty intelligent people.

Finally, that teaser for Season 2 when the ships are coming to the Western shore. I’ll name those forces as the Seanchan without explaining anything about them. But why did they make a giant Tsunami to take out one little girl sat on a beach? If not for her, what other reasons were there for this show of power? My only explanation is that someone in the writing team said, ‘hey wouldn’t it be cool if we…’ and were allowed to run with it.

I know a lot of books fans hated the changes so much they gave up on Episode 2. However there was a huge amount of good will from some book readers also who were willing to give this series a fighting chance. This finale has caused many of them to give up on The Wheel of Time and that’s not good. So far I have heard non book fans who liked it and some who didn’t. However I’ve yet to come across a book reader who liked this finale and that is extremely worrying for a big season finale.

- - - Updated - - -

[Triceron]

Well the real disconnect is why Lan would need Nynaeve at all in order to track Moiraine.

This is already a departure from the books, so let's set aside that Nynaeve is the better tracker for a moment and look at this from Lan's point of view.

He's an established Warder and protector of Moiraine. This means he's already a skilled tracker and knows Moiraine very well. And we all know what direction Moiraine is headed; she wants to go confront the Dark One at the Eye of the World. So Lan already knows roughly where to go, even if he doesn't exactly know the way. Even if Moraine masked her bond, Lan is still a skilled tracker. By all means, he doesn't even have to track Moiraine, he could just as easily track Rand.


So the question is, where does Nynaeve even fit into this equation? By all common sense regarding the Show universe, Lan could have left even if Moiraine masked her bond. He has the skills to anticipate where she went, and is skilled enough of a tracker to find the way. On top of this, he has other resources available to find out where the Eye of the World, which Nynaeve would not have the answer to.

There's no compelling reason why Nynaeve would have the answers that Lan needs in order to find Moraine. Lan is already a skilled tracker, so it doesn't make sense that he somehow needs to go to find anyone more skilled just to find Moraine. By all means he could already do that himself. And if he did need more resources to find Moraine, he should have plenty at the city of Fal Dara, who would actually have people who are knowledgeable about the Blight and the lands beyond. It's not like Nynaeve has any insight to the Blight, even if she is a wisdom. How would she know what to track within the Blight if she'd never been in there? The show does nothing to give us insight in her experience in a land she's never been in.


And besides all of this knowledge, I've already pointed out that the entire 'tell' is bullshit, since Moiraine was shown to be hurt and practically incapacitated from her injuries and was not the primary one guiding the way since their split. There's no 'tell' to track since she wouldn't have been the one leading the way. The show has come up with a completely inconsistent and nonsensical answer to a problem which they themselves created.

[Hoen]

Never read the books.

I’ve liked season 1 for the most part and enjoyed the finale.

[rhorle]

You are beyond delusional. They also didn't fail yes the breaking was bad but they still resealed the dark one for several thousand years along with the Forsaken. It was about half and half forsaken wise and at least 25% of the tower was black ajah. So no it was not men bad women good in the books just in the show. Just stop posting if you clearly haven't read the books and are just looking up wiki entries.

So the failure on the show was because the one power was tainted and it caused the breaking of the world. The failure in the books is the same reason. You are splitting hairs because you have an agenda against the show but not the books. The tower wasn't even around at the start of the breaking so it is irrelevant and just further goal post moving away from the actual points discussed so you can justify whatever it is you want.

Women channelers being set up as "good" and males "bad" is such a core theme of the books that I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing about it. Thousands of years of fearing male channelers sets one side up as generally good and the other bad. Even if specific people can be still be evil lol.

[Shadowferal]

Never will get one of the most badass moments in the books; [i] Weary beyond belief, Loial thinks that for all he left the stedding to experience new things, war is one experience he could have done without. He takes comfort in comforting Erith beside him, as bloodstained and exhausted as he, and pretends that he will survive to write this story down later. Then he sees Lan’s solo charge toward the enemy. He stands and tells Erith he must go.
“Go?”
“I need to witness this,” Loial said. The fall of the last king of the Malkieri. He would need to include it in his book.

Tam sees Lan’s charge as well, and realizes he is going for Demandred, but there is a host of Trollocs in the way. He shouts for fire arrows. A mercenary laughs that at a hundred paces they’ll probably only shoot Lan, and Tam ignores him.
“First rank, on my signal!” Tam yelled, ignoring the other orders that came down the line.
“Let’s give Lord Mandragoran a little something to guide his way!”
Tam drew in a fluid motion, the burning rag warming his fingers, and loosed.

Lan charges, the medallion Berelain had given him to give Cauthon around his own neck instead.
Some men would call it brash, foolhardy, suicidal. The world was rarely changed by men who were unwilling to try being at least one of the three.
He charges the line of Trollocs, knowing it won’t work, but out of nowhere a hail of flaming arrows comes down before him, breaking up the line, and Lan crashes through the opening, sending a mental thank you to Tam, and continues on to where Demandred stands. Lan plows through the Sharans between him and the Forsaken and jumps down, rushing to the attack on foot. Demandred is contemptuous up until Lan wounds him within the first three strokes.
Demandred felt at the wound in his cheek, and his eyes opened wider. “Who are you?” Demandred asked.
“I am the man who will kill you.”

Lan fights, holding nothing back, not daring to let his opponent think enough to use indirect effects of the Power against him.
“You are… good…” Demandred said with a grunt, falling back before Wind and Rain, a line of blood dripping from his chin. Lan’s sword flashed in the air, reflecting the red light of a bonfire nearby.
Demandred gains enough ground to fling rocks at him, but Lan uses the man’s[b] tells [/b]to dodge them. Demandred says no mortal could have such skill, and wonders aloud whether he is Asmodean, or Lews Therin in disguise. Lan replies that he is just a man. Lan knows that Demandred is in fact the better swordsman, and is relatively fresh where Lan is exhausted. Demandred presses his advantage, abandoning attempts at channeling for pure swordplay, delivering Lan several wounds.
I’ve only time for one last lesson…
“I have you,” Demandred finally growled, breathing heavily. “Whoever you are, I have you. You cannot win.”
“You didn’t listen to me,” Lan whispered.
One last lesson. The hardest…
Demandred struck, and Lan saw his opening. Lan lunged forward, placing Demandred’s sword point against his own side and ramming himself forward onto it.
“I did not come here to win,” Lan whispered, smiling. “I came here to kill you. Death is lighter than a feather.”
Demandred’s eyes opened wide, and he tried to pull back. Too late. Lan’s sword took him straight through the throat.
The world grew dark as Lan slipped backward off the sword. He felt Nynaeve’s fear and pain as he did, and he sent his love to her. [/i]

[Gumble]

snip

Thank you for that. I would have loved to see that Lan in live action.

[Coniferous]

The entire reason why there was a split in the Hall of Servants was because there was disagreement over Lews plan. So you are trying to say Latra started essentially a civil war over a plan she thought was good? It being 5, 10, 15, or a hundred woman who were evil still doesn't change that the books set up the woman Aes Sedai as good and men Aes Sedi as bad.

The best part is you just stated that the books set up Lews as arrogant while at the same time saying the show changed it to him being arrogant. Lmao.

She disagreed with the plan but who says she was right? The book is ambiguous on this, they were going to lose the war and needed to do something. You can’t be serious with this argument.

So what number of women would be enough? There were about 200 in the books. There’s no evidence for your claims anywhere and you’re not worth responding to further.

[Biomega]

The book is never quite clear if the women's plan would have worked any better - at least not the Choedan Kal plan. We have hindsight to guide us only for one of the two plans; evidently LTT's efforts were partially successful, but also partially disastrous. Whether the CK plan would have done better or worse than that we will never know. IIRC it's also a bit unclear how Callandor fits into all of this. It's very possible that solution was devised only BECAUSE of the failure of LTT's plan - i.e. the tainting of saidin revealed the need for a holistic solution using the True Power to insulate saidin and saidar from the Dark One's influence. In that sense, it could be that LTT's plan did end up the more successful alternative, because the CK solution might not have revealed this. But, again, no real way to tell for sure.