[TV] The Wheel of Time

[rhorle]

You are beyond delusional. They also didn't fail yes the breaking was bad but they still resealed the dark one for several thousand years along with the Forsaken. It was about half and half forsaken wise and at least 25% of the tower was black ajah. So no it was not men bad women good in the books just in the show. Just stop posting if you clearly haven't read the books and are just looking up wiki entries.

So the failure on the show was because the one power was tainted and it caused the breaking of the world. The failure in the books is the same reason. You are splitting hairs because you have an agenda against the show but not the books. The tower wasn't even around at the start of the breaking so it is irrelevant and just further goal post moving away from the actual points discussed so you can justify whatever it is you want.

Women channelers being set up as "good" and males "bad" is such a core theme of the books that I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing about it. Thousands of years of fearing male channelers sets one side up as generally good and the other bad. Even if specific people can be still be evil lol.

[Shadowferal]

Never will get one of the most badass moments in the books; [i] Weary beyond belief, Loial thinks that for all he left the stedding to experience new things, war is one experience he could have done without. He takes comfort in comforting Erith beside him, as bloodstained and exhausted as he, and pretends that he will survive to write this story down later. Then he sees Lan’s solo charge toward the enemy. He stands and tells Erith he must go.
“Go?”
“I need to witness this,” Loial said. The fall of the last king of the Malkieri. He would need to include it in his book.

Tam sees Lan’s charge as well, and realizes he is going for Demandred, but there is a host of Trollocs in the way. He shouts for fire arrows. A mercenary laughs that at a hundred paces they’ll probably only shoot Lan, and Tam ignores him.
“First rank, on my signal!” Tam yelled, ignoring the other orders that came down the line.
“Let’s give Lord Mandragoran a little something to guide his way!”
Tam drew in a fluid motion, the burning rag warming his fingers, and loosed.

Lan charges, the medallion Berelain had given him to give Cauthon around his own neck instead.
Some men would call it brash, foolhardy, suicidal. The world was rarely changed by men who were unwilling to try being at least one of the three.
He charges the line of Trollocs, knowing it won’t work, but out of nowhere a hail of flaming arrows comes down before him, breaking up the line, and Lan crashes through the opening, sending a mental thank you to Tam, and continues on to where Demandred stands. Lan plows through the Sharans between him and the Forsaken and jumps down, rushing to the attack on foot. Demandred is contemptuous up until Lan wounds him within the first three strokes.
Demandred felt at the wound in his cheek, and his eyes opened wider. “Who are you?” Demandred asked.
“I am the man who will kill you.”

Lan fights, holding nothing back, not daring to let his opponent think enough to use indirect effects of the Power against him.
“You are… good…” Demandred said with a grunt, falling back before Wind and Rain, a line of blood dripping from his chin. Lan’s sword flashed in the air, reflecting the red light of a bonfire nearby.
Demandred gains enough ground to fling rocks at him, but Lan uses the man’s[b] tells [/b]to dodge them. Demandred says no mortal could have such skill, and wonders aloud whether he is Asmodean, or Lews Therin in disguise. Lan replies that he is just a man. Lan knows that Demandred is in fact the better swordsman, and is relatively fresh where Lan is exhausted. Demandred presses his advantage, abandoning attempts at channeling for pure swordplay, delivering Lan several wounds.
I’ve only time for one last lesson…
“I have you,” Demandred finally growled, breathing heavily. “Whoever you are, I have you. You cannot win.”
“You didn’t listen to me,” Lan whispered.
One last lesson. The hardest…
Demandred struck, and Lan saw his opening. Lan lunged forward, placing Demandred’s sword point against his own side and ramming himself forward onto it.
“I did not come here to win,” Lan whispered, smiling. “I came here to kill you. Death is lighter than a feather.”
Demandred’s eyes opened wide, and he tried to pull back. Too late. Lan’s sword took him straight through the throat.
The world grew dark as Lan slipped backward off the sword. He felt Nynaeve’s fear and pain as he did, and he sent his love to her. [/i]

[Gumble]

snip

Thank you for that. I would have loved to see that Lan in live action.

[Coniferous]

The entire reason why there was a split in the Hall of Servants was because there was disagreement over Lews plan. So you are trying to say Latra started essentially a civil war over a plan she thought was good? It being 5, 10, 15, or a hundred woman who were evil still doesn't change that the books set up the woman Aes Sedai as good and men Aes Sedi as bad.

The best part is you just stated that the books set up Lews as arrogant while at the same time saying the show changed it to him being arrogant. Lmao.

She disagreed with the plan but who says she was right? The book is ambiguous on this, they were going to lose the war and needed to do something. You can’t be serious with this argument.

So what number of women would be enough? There were about 200 in the books. There’s no evidence for your claims anywhere and you’re not worth responding to further.

[Biomega]

The book is never quite clear if the women's plan would have worked any better - at least not the Choedan Kal plan. We have hindsight to guide us only for one of the two plans; evidently LTT's efforts were partially successful, but also partially disastrous. Whether the CK plan would have done better or worse than that we will never know. IIRC it's also a bit unclear how Callandor fits into all of this. It's very possible that solution was devised only BECAUSE of the failure of LTT's plan - i.e. the tainting of saidin revealed the need for a holistic solution using the True Power to insulate saidin and saidar from the Dark One's influence. In that sense, it could be that LTT's plan did end up the more successful alternative, because the CK solution might not have revealed this. But, again, no real way to tell for sure.

[rhorle]

She disagreed with the plan but who says she was right? The book is ambiguous on this, they were going to lose the war and needed to do something. You can’t be serious with this argument.

The show doesn't say one side is right and one side is wrong either. The book is not ambiguous about the split and the clear lines drawn over support of the plan to seal the bore. We are told it is suggested several times over the course of the war and cause a group of powerful women to start their own faction in opposition. We are told later in the war that the group opposed grew to to all women in the hall of servants even those not powerful enough to be of assistance. You don't oppose something in that manner if you think it was a good thing to do. Therefore it was seen as bad.

The show has dialogue of Lews saying "If you help us, we won't fail" and Latra responding "We will remain, to pick up the pieces as best we can if you do.". It is the same type of disagreement presented in the books. I'm not even sure what your point is about there being 200 evil women in the book. Women being able to be evil has no bearing on anything I've stated and is just some weird moving of the goal posts gendered argument you are trying to make.

The evidence I have presented is backed up by the books. There is disagreement on the show with each faction thinking their plan is good and the others is bad. The show presents it the same way. The women in the books were presented as good because the men ended up going bad and they "saved the world". It is what helped the White Tower gain such early power.

[Shadowferal]

Three threads have come together here, each giving a warning: the Eye. It cannot be chance; it is the Pattern. You three did not choose; you were chosen by the Pattern. And you are here, where the danger is known. You can step aside, and perhaps doom the world. Running, hiding, will not save you from the weaving of the Pattern. Or you can try. You can go to the Eye of the World, three ta'veren, three centerpoints of the Web, placed where the danger lies. Let the Pattern be woven around you there, and you may save the world from the Shadow. The choice is yours. I cannot make you go.”

https://www.go2reads.com/eye-world?page=0,326

[Pyrophax]

Biggest failure in show is disbalance of man/woman power. In book - there are Village Consul for man jobs and Woman Circle fo woman ones. And they are not ofter intechanged with one another.
Same with One Power - Saidin Chanellers was individual stronger, but Saidar was more versatile, have potential to join forces, while man cannot. There were male role and female role in Sea Folk, Aiel, Tinkers, even Andor goverment. Even Black Tower was build to oppose White Tower.
But for better, real result - there must be joint forces. No matter - Village things, Andor army, tinkers searching or chanelling.
And has been said that female chanellers became less strong for awhile, there were less woman who can channel. And that because of mass killing male chanellers. Not saing that its not understandable, but its a fact.

And what we seeing at show? Woman Circle rules villages, no Village Consul. Wise is not a sort of witch for healing and educate young folk - its a leader of village. So - Naineave leaving Eamon Field is more miserable that it must be.
Logain, that must be stronger than Egweine by what, 9 levels of power? is weaker than her. And Im not starting about Naineave power level. Warders, elite soldiers, must be some sort of SWAT in that universe - crybabes and victims EVIL FATHERS (yea, that episode about Steppin still hurts). And only woman can save them - turning to lap-dogs or gays.
Who need absolutely fantastic end scene of book 1, when Rand takes saidin and turn trollock army to dust. Nope, good things is for woman only in that show, sorry mate. Lets 2 young girls do, what LTT cant in book 12 (i think?). Aside for need of sa`angreal just to defeat Ish.
Rain the Mahdi is silent mouthwatcher of his wife, I bet for Aiel you will see (I cant rape my sanity with another season) male Aiel just farmers and merchants, while Far Daraise Mai - only warriors in their society.
And no Black Tower, its useless. We can have like 30 young ladies do their job and save the day /s

I can understand that rafe is feminist and its his view of things, but in a book there was balance (ruined by DO counterattack and by the end of series - restored), and show is so much onesided that its getting hilarious. Too much that MAN ARE EVIL AND WOMAN ARE SAINT. Total shame.
And Im not starting about Amerlin at AoL, and LTT ask to go to seal DO.

Oh, and to much focus at Moraine, I understand that she is hollywood anchor in show, but come on, there need to be other characters.

[Gumble]

The women in the books were presented as good because the men ended up going bad and they "saved the world". It is what helped the White Tower gain such early power.

Do you have a quote for that from the books? From what I recall, the explanation was that the men began going crazy and basically ran rampant for quite awhile without any real opposition (300ish years). The only description we really get is that many of them attempted to stay in Steddings to keep from using the OP and going crazy, but that eventually all of them left because the lack of the OP was too difficult. I believe this was relayed by Loial in the presence of another Aes Sedai (Moiraine or Cadsuane.... I think) who confirmed and said that Aes Sedai were of two minds about that, as to whether it made the Breaking longer or whether it allowed those who could survive enough leeway to survive rather than have all the men go crazy at once.

The description I recall from the books is that the men basically burnt themselves out or killed themselves in their insanity or rotted to death. There is descriptions of Aes Sedai trying (and failing) to cure the madness, Aiel attempting to sing it away, and Aes Sedai creating troves of Saidin, angreal, sa'angreal, etc to be used when the DR came again, but I don't recall any women attempting to "save the world" in the books.

They established the White Tower about 100 years after the breaking and did become a pretty strong (and contentious) political power in the lands, but no reference says they saved the world.

So, I may be wrong, but where do the books say that?

[Coniferous]

The show doesn't say one side is right and one side is wrong either. The book is not ambiguous about the split and the clear lines drawn over support of the plan to seal the bore. We are told it is suggested several times over the course of the war and cause a group of powerful women to start their own faction in opposition. We are told later in the war that the group opposed grew to to all women in the hall of servants even those not powerful enough to be of assistance. You don't oppose something in that manner if you think it was a good thing to do. Therefore it was seen as bad.

The show has dialogue of Lews saying "If you help us, we won't fail" and Latra responding "We will remain, to pick up the pieces as best we can if you do.". It is the same type of disagreement presented in the books. I'm not even sure what your point is about there being 200 evil women in the book. Women being able to be evil has no bearing on anything I've stated and is just some weird moving of the goal posts gendered argument you are trying to make.

The evidence I have presented is backed up by the books. There is disagreement on the show with each faction thinking their plan is good and the others is bad. The show presents it the same way. The women in the books were presented as good because the men ended up going bad and they "saved the world". It is what helped the White Tower gain such early power.

The TV show doesn't give any context other than to say that arrogant men tried to cage darkness and women were left to pick up the pieces. That pretty clearly sets up the men as wrong.

The 200 women being evil argument is related to your comment that men are bad and women good in the books. That's just... false. There were large numbers of good and bad of each gender.

No one disagrees with you that the women opposed Lews Therin's plan. They thought it was a bad plan. That doesn't mean it actually was a bad plan, and even more so, it doesn't mean Lews was a bad person for attempting it - in fact, he expected to die in the attempt.

You accused me of moving goalposts. Let's clarify. Where we disagree is:

I claim that the books tried to portray men and women as neither inherently good or inherently evil, and that the TV show explicitly makes men bad and women good.

You claim:

The books set up the woman Aes Sedi as the good ones and the males as the bad ones.

This is not about whether "the plan" was good or bad. It was about how men are evil and women are good. I'm not the one moving goalposts here - you are with your talk about whether the plan was bad or good - we started out, as the quote above makes clear, discussing whether each gender was good or bad.

There's nothing in the books to support the quoted argument, at all. The black tower had good men and bad men. The white tower also had good women and bad women. The Forsaken were 50/50 on gender. You're just wrong.

[Shadowferal]

So, I may be wrong, but where do the books say that?

They don't.
The process of "severing" a man from the source came about after the White Tower was established (more or less. It was being built) a century after the Age of Legends. The word was changed to "gentling" then snd became the purview of the Red Ajah.

[rhorle]

There is descriptions of Aes Sedai trying (and failing) to cure the madness, Aiel attempting to sing it away, and Aes Sedai creating troves of Saidin, angreal, sa'angreal, etc to be used when the DR came again, but I don't recall any women attempting to "save the world" in the books.

Why would I need to provide a source when you indicated what they did to try and "save the world"? Trying to cure the madness, stockpiling artifacts, creating the eye of the world, and trying to preserve what they could is "attempting to save the world". We also know that some during the breaking set about preparing things for the prophecy of the dragon reborn. Rhuidean is an example of this as are some others.

But you don't already consider actions taken to help during the breaking as "saving the world" so I'm not sure you really are interested in an honest discussion on the topic.

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The process of "severing" a man from the source came about after the White Tower was established (more or less. It was being built) a century after the Age of Legends. The word was changed to "gentling" then snd became the purview of the Red Ajah.

Severing literally comes from the Age of Legends which predates the White Tower lol. The modern term is stilling for women and gentling for men.

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The TV show doesn't give any context other than to say that arrogant men tried to cage darkness and women were left to pick up the pieces. That pretty clearly sets up the men as wrong.

You didn't watch the last episode did you? The show has a discussion between the leaders of the two factions of the Hall of Servants. It doesn't show men as arrogant but it does have Latra calling Lews arrogant. The books set up men as wrong for the same reasons as the show. They are directly tied to the breaking of the world.

This is not about whether "the plan" was good or bad. It was about how men are evil and women are good. I'm not the one moving goalposts here - you are with your talk about whether the plan was bad or good - we started out, as the quote above makes clear, discussing whether each gender was good or bad.

Discussing not if each gender was bad or good but what gender of Aes Sedai were bad or good. If you are going to attempt to be dishonest with what was being discussed you might want to first read what you are quoting. You are the one that took it to be all men being bad and all women being good. You moved the goal posts from Aes Sedai. Lmao.

[Coniferous]

You didn't watch the last episode did you? The show has a discussion between the leaders of the two factions of the Hall of Servants. It doesn't show men as arrogant but it does have Latra calling Lews arrogant. The books set up men as wrong for the same reasons as the show. They are directly tied to the breaking of the world.

Discussing not if each gender was bad or good but what gender of Aes Sedai were bad or good. If you are going to attempt to be dishonest with what was being discussed you might want to first read what you are quoting. You are the one that took it to be all men being bad and all women being good. You moved the goal posts from Aes Sedai. Lmao.

I honestly have no idea how you think that makes your point better. There were 200 black ajah. Half the forsaken (originally Aes Sedai) were women. The person who freed the dark one was a female Aes Sedai. There's basically no evidence for your claim that the book sets up male Aes Sedai as the bad guys. In the show men clearly are bad, we agree on that. You still haven't provided any evidence from the books to support your claim at all, by the way, you keep talking about the show.

And yes, I read all the books, watched the whole show. Please just stop. You're wrong.

[Gumble]

Why would I need to provide a source when you indicated what they did to try and "save the world"? Trying to cure the madness, stockpiling artifacts, creating the eye of the world, and trying to preserve what they could is "attempting to save the world". We also know that some during the breaking set about preparing things for the prophecy of the dragon reborn. Rhuidean is an example of this as are some others.

But you don't already consider actions taken to help during the breaking as "saving the world" so I'm not sure you really are interested in an honest discussion on the topic.

I see, you have no intention of proving your claims and just say "see I'm right". Preparing for 3000 years in the future when the DO breaks free again isn't really the "saving the world" you indicated would have made them "the good ones".

I suppose I gave you too much credit to actually expect a real answer. You are too consumed by hate for everyone in the thread right now to do more than be flippant.

I should have known better.

[Coniferous]

I see, you have no intention of proving your claims and just say "see I'm right". Preparing for 3000 years in the future when the DO breaks free again isn't really the "saving the world" you indicated would have made them "the good ones".

I suppose I gave you too much credit to actually expect a real answer. You are too consumed by hate for everyone in the thread right now to do more than be flippant.

I should have known better.

He's doing the same thing to me. Time to ignore him and move on I think.

Where do you think they're going with the whole cuendillar breaking thing? Is it about the dark one's prison starting to break? Did they make it so that Rand actually starts breaking it to set him free (because you know, men are bad and do bad things).

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Thank you for that. I would have loved to see that Lan in live action.

Best scene in the entire series. Pretty easily.

[Shadowferal]

Best scene in the entire series. Pretty easily.

The sequence in "Dumai's Wells" when you first realize the Black Tower has come into play...to Rand ruthlessly crushing the three points in fists of spirit..ending in "kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." Gave me wood for a week!

[oplawlz]

So the failure on the show was because the one power was tainted and it caused the breaking of the world. The failure in the books is the same reason. You are splitting hairs because you have an agenda against the show but not the books. The tower wasn't even around at the start of the breaking so it is irrelevant and just further goal post moving away from the actual points discussed so you can justify whatever it is you want.

Women channelers being set up as "good" and males "bad" is such a core theme of the books that I'm not even sure why you are disagreeing about it. Thousands of years of fearing male channelers sets one side up as generally good and the other bad. Even if specific people can be still be evil lol.

From like the first chapter of the books there were dark aspersions cast on the aes sedai. Some of them were unwarranted, but almost everyone who wasn't attached to the tower and had to deal with them saw them as best a fearful unknown and at worst a dangerous unknowable power to be avoided. And for the most part they were right, as we see demonstrated throughout the whole series.

[Coniferous]

The sequence in "Dumai's Wells" when you first realize the Black Tower has come into play...to Rand ruthlessly crushing the three points in fists of spirit..ending in "kneel and swear to the Lord Dragon, or you will be knelt." Gave me wood for a week!

To me, that scene was great, but the book before it was VERY slow. I think the scene felt so good because of the contrast with the book before it. That's when the series went off the rails for about 4 books. When I re-read it, I skipped from that scene to the cleansing of Saidin, then to Sanderson books and didn't feel like I had missed anything.

[rhorle]

I honestly have no idea how you think that makes your point better. There were 200 black ajah. Half the forsaken (originally Aes Sedai) were women.

My point has never been that a woman can not be evil. You invented that argument and have been told that my comments were talking about Aes Sedai. The books sets up female Aes Sedai up as good because the male Aes Sedai went mad and broke the world. At no point does that statement say that it is impossible for a female to be evil or that there are no evil Aes Sedai. Lmao.

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I see, you have no intention of proving your claims and just say "see I'm right".

I didn't say see I'm right. If you aren't going to read and acknowledge what is said to you why are you even asking for a response?

[Coniferous]

My point has never been that a woman can not be evil. You invented that argument and have been told that my comments were talking about Aes Sedai. The books sets up female Aes Sedai up as good because the male Aes Sedai went mad and broke the world. At no point does that statement say that it is impossible for a female to be evil or that there are no evil Aes Sedai. Lmao.

Nope, this isn't right either.