[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Flurryfang]

This is a very hard show to watch as a lover of the books.

It takes a very different direction than the books, almost to a point where it is more its own story than an adaptation, which is why when the departures are bad, it becomes painful to watch.

I think the word which comes to my mind when watching the show is "mis-representation". Like, the show might be good and a lot of people are liking it, but does it really represent what the Wheel of Time story is, what it is about and what it is trying to convey? Some of the major themes of the books are completely ignored and some of them are twisted, making it into some allegory of modern time problems, instead of a generel theme.


After watching most of season 2, i can now say, that the Wheel of Time TV show will never be for me. I am too connected to the books, its themes and its story arcs. Seeing a different interpretation of it, and how much it seperates itself from the books, the show becomes painful to see, no matter how good the acting is or how good a new story they might be making.

While i like that a TV show atleast got made, it does not change, that i am a bit sad, that we did not get a more true-to-the-books story, which i could have enjoyed aswell.

[Surfd]

You realize how this sentence is a huge red flag right?

It's a huge red flag to be male and like literature with strong representations of women in it's depictions of them in culture, politics and as individual characters now? The fuck?

[Nymrohd]

It's a huge red flag to be male and like literature with strong representations of women in it's depictions of them in culture, politics and as individual characters now? The fuck?

Eh, maybe reread the sentence? "despite being male" means that you consider the normal state of things to NOT like strong female representation because you are male.

[Noxina]

Eh, maybe reread the sentence? "despite being male" means that you consider the normal state of things to NOT like strong female representation because you are male.

Someone's reaching.

[Flurryfang]

You realize how this sentence is a huge red flag right?

Why is it a red flag to be realistic about the idea of having a hard time relating to somebody of your opposite gender.

It is only fair, that as a male, you are aware that a primarily female story, will be hard to connect to, compared to a primarily male story.

[Nymrohd]

Someone's reaching.

Or just extrapolating based on present evidence.

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Why is it a red flag to be realistic about the idea of having a hard time relating to somebody of your opposite gender.

It is only fair, that as a male, you are aware that a primarily female story, will be hard to connect to, compared to a primarily male story.

But that's not what we are talking about. I responded to two paragraphs of text by picking a specific sentence, in the context of over a hundred responses in this topic alone by that poster
The issue raised was not about connecting with any depth. It was simply about liking a story where women are incidentally important (but are not the majority focus of the story). It should NOT be a question of gender. The Wheel of Time is not the Vagina Monologues or Lean In were a man might struggle to connect with the text. It is a young adult book series focused in its majority on male young adult characters but also having a significant minority of female points of view. It is balanced though clearly leaning on the male perspective. It should not be a challenge at all to like it based on your gender so the fact that one would make their gender an issue, presenting it as if you overcome something is a red flag.

One of the most important themes of Wheel of Time is "Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus". We get persistent PoVs of men and women who are incapable of understanding the opposite sex. The original sin of their cosmos was trying to bridge that divide; the Bore that unleashed Saitan was created in an attempt to reach a source of power that both genders could use equally which absolutely could be seen as trans-exclusionary

[Redwyrm]

This is a very hard show to watch as a lover of the books.

It takes a very different direction than the books, almost to a point where it is more its own story than an adaptation, which is why when the departures are bad, it becomes painful to watch.

I think the word which comes to my mind when watching the show is "mis-representation". Like, the show might be good and a lot of people are liking it, but does it really represent what the Wheel of Time story is, what it is about and what it is trying to convey? Some of the major themes of the books are completely ignored and some of them are twisted, making it into some allegory of modern time problems, instead of a generel theme.


After watching most of season 2, i can now say, that the Wheel of Time TV show will never be for me. I am too connected to the books, its themes and its story arcs. Seeing a different interpretation of it, and how much it seperates itself from the books, the show becomes painful to see, no matter how good the acting is or how good a new story they might be making.

While i like that a TV show atleast got made, it does not change, that i am a bit sad, that we did not get a more true-to-the-books story, which i could have enjoyed aswell.

I reached this point at the end of Season 1 and didn't even have hope for them to correct it in Season 2. That's why I have avoided watching Season 2. The show maybe good on it's own but it's not the Wheel of Time.

[Nymrohd]

This is a very hard show to watch as a lover of the books.

It takes a very different direction than the books, almost to a point where it is more its own story than an adaptation, which is why when the departures are bad, it becomes painful to watch.

I think the word which comes to my mind when watching the show is "mis-representation". Like, the show might be good and a lot of people are liking it, but does it really represent what the Wheel of Time story is, what it is about and what it is trying to convey? Some of the major themes of the books are completely ignored and some of them are twisted, making it into some allegory of modern time problems, instead of a generel theme.


After watching most of season 2, i can now say, that the Wheel of Time TV show will never be for me. I am too connected to the books, its themes and its story arcs. Seeing a different interpretation of it, and how much it seperates itself from the books, the show becomes painful to see, no matter how good the acting is or how good a new story they might be making.

While i like that a TV show atleast got made, it does not change, that i am a bit sad, that we did not get a more true-to-the-books story, which i could have enjoyed aswell.

I think part of the issue that many of us have with the show is that many of the changes are not really changes you'd make for the sake of adaptation to a different medium. Adding different origins and new scenes or arcs doesn't help you adapt the story, it just helps you change it. Which intrinsically is a judgment on the original material.

[Mazza]

I think part of the issue that many of us have with the show is that many of the changes are not really changes you'd make for the sake of adaptation to a different medium. Adding different origins and new scenes or arcs doesn't help you adapt the story, it just helps you change it. Which intrinsically is a judgment on the original material.

In fairness, you can get away with that somewhat if the result is downright spectacular compared to the source material. It's just that the show, well, isn't. And then all those changes are met with the question of "Why?" until in the end the entire show is met with that question.

[rhorle]

You see, but the goal posts have been moved.. now what is considered empowering women, or equality for women is actually female dominance.

Kind of like how the White Tower grew to dominate the "known" world over 3,000 years? I'm not sure why you are bringing the Critics choice Sofee seal into this. Wheel of Time has not received it.

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I think part of the issue that many of us have with the show is that many of the changes are not really changes you'd make for the sake of adaptation to a different medium. Adding different origins and new scenes or arcs doesn't help you adapt the story, it just helps you change it. Which intrinsically is a judgment on the original material.

Can you honestly know that they aren't needed for the medium though? Different origins, scenes, and arcs can be required to fit a plot into the space you have. You might not have time to do A, B, C so you need to do X, Y, Z instead to tell a similar story. This isn't to say that the series does it the right way or only there way is possible. It is just saying that you are wrong about adaptations.

Even Peter Jackson drastically changed some characters, stories, and "origins" and his work is praised. The issue is, and usually always is, people over look those things when they like something and only see them when they don't.

[ItsRainingMetal]

I was curious how good the books are so I found this beauty at the book store. Check it out.

[Redwyrm]

Even Peter Jackson drastically changed some characters, stories, and "origins" and his work is praised. The issue is, and usually always is, people over look those things when they like something and only see them when they don't.

I wouldn't compare what Peter Jackson did with LotR with what is being done (and has been done to past fantasy series, Sword of Truth, Shannara, etc.) to Wheel of Time. If Wheel of Time got the same level of treatment that LotR got I would be completely satisfied. But it isn't

[rhorle]

I wouldn't compare what Peter Jackson did with LotR with what is being done (and has been done to past fantasy series, Sword of Truth, Shannara, etc.) to Wheel of Time. If Wheel of Time got the same level of treatment that LotR got I would be completely satisfied. But it isn't

That is because you like Peter Jackson's work with Lord of the Rings and don't like Wheel of Time (or the others). Peter Jackson did make changes to the story. There was a vocal group on the early internet making it known how much he ruined the work. I can't find a link to some of the hate he received at the time. The Estate of Tolkien even forced Amazon to not work with Mr. Jackson for Rings of Power because of how they feel about his "changes" to the work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...n's_spirit
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tolkien...and_Screenplay

[Pyrophax]

That is because you like Peter Jackson's work with Lord of the Rings and don't like Wheel of Time (or the others). Peter Jackson did make changes to the story. There was a vocal group on the early internet making it known how much he ruined the work. I can't find a link to some of the hate he received at the time. The Estate of Tolkien even forced Amazon to not work with Mr. Jackson for Rings of Power because of how they feel about his "changes" to the work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...n's_spirit
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tolkien...and_Screenplay

Heh, that was a LIIIIITTLE oversight. To not bring Peter Jackson, but hire a bunch of noname producers to produce that garbage as RoP.

[Mazza]

I wouldn't compare what Peter Jackson did with LotR with what is being done (and has been done to past fantasy series, Sword of Truth, Shannara, etc.) to Wheel of Time. If Wheel of Time got the same level of treatment that LotR got I would be completely satisfied. But it isn't

I don't get what is so hard about this. If you change things on an IP with a well established lore and developed fanbase the result needs to be amazing or it will get shot down. Jackson managed to actually hit that level with the LOTR movies, Rafe very much did NOT do so with WoT.

[Redwyrm]

That is because you like Peter Jackson's work with Lord of the Rings and don't like Wheel of Time (or the others). Peter Jackson did make changes to the story. There was a vocal group on the early internet making it known how much he ruined the work. I can't find a link to some of the hate he received at the time. The Estate of Tolkien even forced Amazon to not work with Mr. Jackson for Rings of Power because of how they feel about his "changes" to the work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_...n's_spirit
https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Tolkien...and_Screenplay

Dude, it isn't even close. I love both LotR and WoT. The show is in no way represetative of the books. The LotR movies were faithful adaptations of the source material. Yes, Peter Jackson had to change things to make the movies not be 100 hours long. That's actually an excuse the WoT series does not have. Peter Jackson had 3 hours to adapt the first book. WoT has almost three times that amount (and could have split the first book into two seasons if necessary).

And to the point of the Rings of Power not having Peter Jackson involved.... How's that working out for you?

[rhorle]

The LotR movies were faithful adaptations of the source material.

Again, this comes down to you accepting one over the other. Yes, Jackson had a more faithful adaptation then Wheel of Time but it still got hate over it. Pretending that it didn't is silly. It is just ignore because the movies turned out to be an overwhelming success. The same "die hard fans" in this thread that suggest hating Mr. Jordan's widow are similar to the group of Tolkien fans that hated the Jackson work.

"On Tolkien Online, a petition that called for Jackson "not to violate the integrity of Tolkien's work" gathered more than 16,000 virtual signatures." https://www.wired.com/2001/10/lotr/

[Redwyrm]

Again, this comes down to you accepting one over the other. Yes, Jackson had a more faithful adaptation then Wheel of Time but it still got hate over it. Pretending that it didn't is silly. It is just ignore because the movies turned out to be an overwhelming success. The same "die hard fans" in this thread that suggest hating Mr. Jordan's widow would have been in that same group of Tolkien fans.

"On Tolkien Online, a petition that called for Jackson "not to violate the integrity of Tolkien's work" gathered more than 16,000 virtual signatures." https://www.wired.com/2001/10/lotr/

I didn't say that when it was originally started that Peter Jackson's didn't get hate. But that hate went away when they saw the final product. It's like saying people hated the idea of Heath Ledger as Joker, or Michael Keaton as Batman. Yes, they initially got hate for it (casting), but proved a majority of the naysayers wrong when it was all said and done.

And AGAIN this is not about accepting one over the other. I desperately want the WoT series to be great. I have been waiting decades for them to do it justice. Sadly, this adaptation/reimagining is not it.

[rhorle]

But that hate went away when they saw the final product.

It didn't go away it just got drowned out. Did you even read what I originally said? Because I said that people ignore things when they like a product, as you just said happened with a lot of the hate with Lord of the Rings, but don't if they don't like the product. Which is the case with many of the people in this thread. Some of them haven't even seen Season 2 and still hang around to hate on the show.

[Redwyrm]

Here's the quote from the article you linked

Other Purists sought to sway the director through more ordinary means. On Tolkien Online, a petition that called for Jackson "not to violate the integrity of Tolkien's work" gathered more than 16,000 virtual signatures. As fans see it, all the grumbling paid off. In an official announcement made in the fall of 2000, Jackson claimed that the production was sticking more closely to the books than had originally been planned, and that many of his "so-called clever ideas" were being abandoned.

A petition about the movie they hadn't seen yet. And Jackson did move closer to the books. WoT seems to be moving further away.