[TV] The Wheel of Time

[Gumble]

I'll definitely see since I plan on watching more. I've just been assuming based on the last few pages of this thread that the main complaint had been the casting decisions. In the first episode, at least, the only writing issue for me was that not enough was explained. I felt a bit like the show expected that I'd read the books and understood the world already.

The "diversity" was less a direct problem and more a talking point for the showrunner prior to the release of the show. Rather than talk up how faithful he was going to be to the books, or how he couldn't wait for you to see X, Y, and Z, he played up the diversity angle which made fans of the book concerned. It could be done (frankly everyone from the Two Rivers was supposed to look quite tanned (both a bit of pigment and alot of time outside), so the lily white Matt comes off strange. Rand was supposed to be quite tan as well, for all his red hair and grey eyes, but they could have worked inside those lines. They didn't, and people were concerned what else they would change.

If it was just that and the actors were awesome and the show flowed well, people probably would have shut up and enjoyed it. However, most of the cast was bland to bad, or ruined by the changes made to the story. They ruined most of Emond's Field and made the town feel seedy and sketchy. They aged up the characters so they could start throwing sex in (which is pretty minimal in the books, especially at the start). They made Perrin both kill a wife he never had to "make him sad" and then made so little effort to pay off any of his story from book 1 that he may as well not have been in it. They made the focus of the story the girls, whether that was agenda or attempt to disguise who the dragon was... eh.... and then utterly removed any stakes from their world at the end of the season. They ruined Lan and made him whiny and a pump-and-dump champ. They completed ignored Caemlyn. They cast an old unattractive woman for Min who is never going to look good in tight pants.

Combine that with the stuff they added in, both characters and places that added nothing to the story but stole runtime hours, and you ended up with one of the most disappointing shows since GoT S8.


It did make me break the books out and start re-reading them, so it scores a point for that, but it makes the show an even paler World That Might Be.

[rhorle]

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

It has already been renewed for Season 3. This "It will be canceled" has been said from day one but has yet to come true. Strange, right? The show just isn't for certain people while it is popular for others and hitting the right metrics for Amazon.

[Nurasu]

It has already been renewed for Season 3. This "It will be canceled" has been said from day one but has yet to come true. Strange, right? The show just isn't for certain people while it is popular for others and hitting the right metrics for Amazon.

It really was more of a joke due to his... posting history. That's not to say I wouldn't be shocked if they actually finish the series though.

[kenn9530]

You just love things that will probably be canceled before they're ever finished, don't you?

Lots of things get cancelled regardless of how good they are or not, a cancelled show doesnt mean its good or bad.

Even the best shows can get cancelled after a few seasons and medicore things can carry on for years.

[Xath]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

It had a lot of issues but making Two Rivers not homogenous and basically painting Rand with a giant neon sign as different besides just hair color is a big issue. It also removed the sense of extreme isolation that was present in the village. Tam coming back with an "outlander" wife was a huge deal and the only significant difference from two rivers that Kari had was hair color. The extreme isolation of EF in particular was used as justification for the old blood still being strong there as well. There is an absurd amount of diversity in wheel of time and Women pretty much hold all the power pre Rand. It just isn't present in EF because it's a super isolated village on the back end of nowhere. That Rafe and co didn't get that just shows how little respect they had for the source they were supposedly adapting and totally loved.

[Nurasu]

It had a lot of issues but making Two Rivers not homogenous and basically painting Rand with a giant neon sign as different besides just hair color is a big issue. It also removed the sense of extreme isolation that was present in the village. Tam coming back with an "outlander" wife was a huge deal and the only significant difference from two rivers that Kari had was hair color. The extreme isolation of EF in particular was used as justification for the old blood still being strong there as well. There is an absurd amount of diversity in wheel of time and Women pretty much hold all the power pre Rand. It just isn't present in EF because it's a super isolated village on the back end of nowhere. That Rafe and co didn't get that just shows how little respect they had for the source they were supposedly adapting and totally loved.

I had the sense that it was extremely isolated because it was in the middle of a forest, they had to travel for days to reach some hovel town, and they had unique traditions. A homogenous cast would have added absolutely nothing for me as far as the story or setting go, but I didn't read the books.

[Gumble]

but I didn't read the books.

A fair bet is that neither did the people who made the show.

[Mace]

It had a lot of issues but making Two Rivers not homogenous and basically painting Rand with a giant neon sign as different besides just hair color is a big issue. It also removed the sense of extreme isolation that was present in the village. Tam coming back with an "outlander" wife was a huge deal and the only significant difference from two rivers that Kari had was hair color. The extreme isolation of EF in particular was used as justification for the old blood still being strong there as well. There is an absurd amount of diversity in wheel of time and Women pretty much hold all the power pre Rand. It just isn't present in EF because it's a super isolated village on the back end of nowhere. That Rafe and co didn't get that just shows how little respect they had for the source they were supposedly adapting and totally loved.

I've given up regarding this as wheel of time, and I am disappointed. Their changes are vastly inferior to an excellent book.

They say they are trying to bring it back to canon for the 3rd season which will be the shadows rising , so I guess we should see what their version is like?

I just look back at how poor many of the characters were shown in season 1 and how poor and unnecessary all their replacement invented scenes were and I have little hope.

A different Thom, Perrrin forever changed and terrible too, the place you get to like Rand, all his character loving moments are cut.

Season 2 is going to invent more stuff, no Verin so Moiraine and Lan can be there because they are the main actors, shows they continue to disregard the source material they are supposed to be following.

If only it was good with the changes, but it isnt, its terrinle. Will season22 be different? I will no longer judge it in comparison with the book, but would all the nonsense about men cant save women or actually be decent change and their replacement scenes make sense? I wonder

[Smallfruitbat]

Still an enjoyable story, so far. I'll reserve judgment on how important the insistence on diversity affects the actual story as I watch more. But, so long as the story is good and does not trip up on modern racial politics too much I can see myself enjoying this quite well.

Racial diversity isn't the biggest problem.

In the books the magic is gendered, men access one half (saidin) which has been tainted by the dark one they have to wrestle with it and dominate it. Men also cannot access saidin without going mad. The womens half of the magic (saidar) is softer something you surrender to, while accessing it has dangers it won't drive you mad. The premise of the story is that the dragon reborn (a man) has to defeat the dark one, however there's a very high chance of him going insane before he gets to the last battle. -I don't consider any of that to be spoiler territory as its pretty much spelt out in book one.

The show appears to have done away with the gendered magic; which has big ramifications. In the cold open of episode 1 Liandrin says men corrupt the magic rather than the other way round.

If you enjoy the show -awesome, but don't be fooled into thinking it is Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time. It's basically fan fiction, written by a very inexperienced writer.

[Rennadrel]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

Not to mention treading on the focal characters story arcs and the ending being a complete shitfuck that never actually happened in the book.

[Nymrohd]

Honestly felt that if they wanted go get away with the extreme gender binary of the One Power they should have gone all the way. Which means, have saidin stay corrupted, saidar stay safe but make it so that either gender can channel either and Saidin channelers just go insane because of Saidin. Then you can have both men and women channelers everywhere (and eventually have female Ashaman). Really if gender parity was the issue, I'd rather they genderbend Matrim (you could tell that story with a woman as easily as you could with a man, make her bi!). What they did to Perrin completely changes his character.

I think their main issue is, they hired one strong lead for a role that is NOT the protagonist and then they are bending the entire story around her. Which sucks because if you have to keep Moiraine around that means her sacrifice will have to be removed and if you keep her as the center PoV of the story, all the mystery around her fades. And it's not like the story needed that; there is always a strong female presence around Rand with Nynaeve, Verin (one of the best stories in the entire series), Min, Cadsuane.


It just sucks but I'll just keep ignoring it happened outside this thread.

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Racial diversity isn't the biggest problem.

Really you could make Emond's Field and the Two Rivers area racially diverse and still keep it insular. It will be a bit of a shock mostly because it detracts from how jarring Rand's presence is supposed to be but that's a minor point (heck it helps hide Rand better). But they completely changed some characters with no real justification

And yeah it is very important that they get you to love Rand early on. Throughout the first book and in the early second book (meeting with Amyrlin) you are meant to like this young man so when he starts going crazy later on you are already emotionally invested. Fail to build that connection and there will be no impact later on

[Gumble]

Agreed Nymrohd... while I don't see them making it to the point of Rand going nuts, there is no way they can take what they built in S1 and turn it into anything good. They ruined too many characters and the stakes of the show. There are arguments for cutting or changing things. I see why skipping Caemlyn makes sense logistically, but it does snip alot of threads that start there and will make it difficult to make those stories make any sense. Not that I think they think that far ahead, or have any designs on telling a story that even remotely resembles the books at this point, but it does suck.

S1 basically felt like they took balefire to the EotW and said "Nahhhhh it'll be fine"

[Mazza]

Agreed Nymrohd... while I don't see them making it to the point of Rand going nuts, there is no way they can take what they built in S1 and turn it into anything good. They ruined too many characters and the stakes of the show. There are arguments for cutting or changing things. I see why skipping Caemlyn makes sense logistically, but it does snip alot of threads that start there and will make it difficult to make those stories make any sense. Not that I think they think that far ahead, or have any designs on telling a story that even remotely resembles the books at this point, but it does suck.

S1 basically felt like they took balefire to the EotW and said "Nahhhhh it'll be fine"

Sure, there are arguments for changing and cutting things but why then introduce a plotline that is not present in the book at all. The entire Stepin plotline is in the series "because we obviously had to", according to Rafe. My reaction, after seeing what they cut, is still "No, you didn't". It is the most glaring example in this entire series of the showrunners thinking they know better than the author of the source material and, imo, being blatantly wrong. Such a fucking waste...

[Mace]

Honestly felt that if they wanted go get away with the extreme gender binary of the One Power they should have gone all the way. Which means, have saidin stay corrupted, saidar stay safe but make it so that either gender can channel either and Saidin channelers just go insane because of Saidin. Then you can have both men and women channelers everywhere (and eventually have female Ashaman). Really if gender parity was the issue, I'd rather they genderbend Matrim (you could tell that story with a woman as easily as you could with a man, make her bi!). What they did to Perrin completely changes his character.

I think their main issue is, they hired one strong lead for a role that is NOT the protagonist and then they are bending the entire story around her. Which sucks because if you have to keep Moiraine around that means her sacrifice will have to be removed and if you keep her as the center PoV of the story, all the mystery around her fades. And it's not like the story needed that; there is always a strong female presence around Rand with Nynaeve, Verin (one of the best stories in the entire series), Min, Cadsuane.


It just sucks but I'll just keep ignoring it happened outside this thread.

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Really you could make Emond's Field and the Two Rivers area racially diverse and still keep it insular. It will be a bit of a shock mostly because it detracts from how jarring Rand's presence is supposed to be but that's a minor point (heck it helps hide Rand better). But they completely changed some characters with no real justification

And yeah it is very important that they get you to love Rand early on. Throughout the first book and in the early second book (meeting with Amyrlin) you are meant to like this young man so when he starts going crazy later on you are already emotionally invested. Fail to build that connection and there will be no impact later on

WHat annoys me about the woke shit is that - I m pretty sure they cut out the gender binary fo the one Power because of some unknown stupid woke aw.


These people woulud cut out sexes and remove males and females if they could - ti's so insane. Oh we can't have it because in between people would be stuck , rather than exporing the case of what a trans or gender changed person would experience given that you know humans do come in male or female sexes, and so that the one power also does shouldn't be something to be hidden or changed - but also explored.

in fact, doesn't Jordan do so with Aran'gar?

[Smallfruitbat]

Sure, there are arguments for changing and cutting things but why then introduce a plotline that is not present in the book at all. The entire Stepin plotline is in the series "because we obviously had to", according to Rafe. My reaction, after seeing what they cut, is still "No, you didn't". It is the most glaring example in this entire series of the showrunners thinking they know better than the author of the source material and, imo, being blatantly wrong. Such a fucking waste...

It's a case of a novice writer thinking he can do better than a master!

Years ago you had to earn your way to a senior position, learn the job, on the way you would figure out that you didn't know it all and it's not quite as easy as it looks at first. The same thing is applicable across pretty much every field. In WoT and LoTR we've got some untested guys who have all these grand ideas about how to improve things.

I hope there will be some sort of backlash but with all the fans who are clearly hate watching, I suspect it will fall on deaf ears.

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WHat annoys me about the woke shit is that - I m pretty sure they cut out the gender binary fo the one Power because of some unknown stupid woke aw.


These people woulud cut out sexes and remove males and females if they could - ti's so insane. Oh we can't have it because in between people would be stuck , rather than exporing the case of what a trans or gender changed person would experience given that you know humans do come in male or female sexes, and so that the one power also does shouldn't be something to be hidden or changed - but also explored.

in fact, doesn't Jordan do so with Aran'gar?

I think you're correct that they changed the way the one power works because it's inconvenient to the trans community. The whole tone of the series is the differences (and similarities) between men and women. Jordan does a good job at picking at our foibles and showing us how ridiculous we can behave. I went to an all girls school, what we saw with the White Tower factions and the constant bickering on the road between the women was embarrassingly accurate.

[Mace]

It's a case of a novice writer thinking he can do better than a master!

Years ago you had to earn your way to a senior position, learn the job, on the way you would figure out that you didn't know it all and it's not quite as easy as it looks at first. The same thing is applicable across pretty much every field. In WoT and LoTR we've got some untested guys who have all these grand ideas about how to improve things.

I hope there will be some sort of backlash but with all the fans who are clearly hate watching, I suspect it will fall on deaf ears.

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I think you're correct that they changed the way the one power works because it's inconvenient to the trans community. The whole tone of the series is the differences (and similarities) between men and women. Jordan does a good job at picking at our foibles and showing us how ridiculous we can behave. I went to an all girls school, what we saw with the White Tower factions and the constant bickering on the road between the women was embarrassingly accurate.

Indeed, WoT series is a classic case of playing politics with source material. The book writer actually reflected our world quite well but in his own way for his own title.

They added nothing with their changes, just made it look so much worse with stupid changes that sucked the flavour, the charm and good quirks of his fantasy for in your face, let's drive it super home messaging and ideology only a tiny portion of people ascribe to, half of them I'm sure dont like it and most dont care.

Clearly, the show runners care about their message more than the man whose work they are bringing to life.

I just wish they would save their messaging for their own creative works, not take someone elses and change it.

I wanted to see Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, not someone else's twisted self insert version. It's doubly worse when your version is blatantly worse than the original, and a lot worse.

All the charm of the books sucked out of it, replaced with messaging, signalling and unnecessary changes, that then lead to other bad changes resulting into changed a product, its not the same

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Jordan was never writing men are bad, jerks, useless or subservient to women in order to do anything - which is the messaging of a certain socio political group that hates men

And not what Jordan was portraying in his world, which was far more realistic and not so obviously idealised

[jdbond]

This...show is still alive? Seriously?

[Konteil]

Diversity had absolutely nothing to do with why the show was bad. The problems were entirely the character development, writing, and pacing, which you'll find after episode 1.

the diversity is the tip of the iceberg. bigger problems come later. for example they have cut apart major events and charachter development that are incredibly important later in the series. and a few have been chopped so bad that main plot points are going to have to be rewritten or scrapped all together. this will make the end of the story almost impossible to tell. they made some pretty big sacrifices. it was almost like they made the story before finishing the series to see how it all ended. thats the part that made me stop watching it. there are whole arcs of the books that are so mangled the story is something completely diffrent now. the only things the books and show have in common at this point are names of people and places. all else is something totally different. They had a masterpiece of high fantasy that was complete and fantastic and they decided to write a total different story with some of the same characters. its terrible.

my opinion as it is stated. im sure some will agree or disagree and that is ok.

[Witchblade77]

what is fascinating to me is that if you watch their animated shorts (which can finally be watched normally instead of fighting with their xray feature which never seemed to work for me)? they did not cut out the gender binary on the contrary, the short that specifically talks about saidin and saidar - is very book accurate. so... I wonder if Liadrin's declaration is not meant to be taken at face value, given her strongly implied and all but spelled out bias and all?

[Konteil]

also i could beat them half to death for what they did to perrin. and the changes to mat and his family are criminal. those changes affect teh whole series and take away somethings that are needed at the end. not to mention the arcs at the beginning books. with what they have done to him itll be almost impossible to make him the son of battles. he was modeled after Odin and now hes just nothing.