[7.0] Legion Discipline Priest Guide and Discussion

[Rife]

But given that Discipline has no actual HoT effects, minimal DoT effects and a cooldown-centric dps rotation, I'm now skeptical of claims that haste is worthwhile - especially given an environment where Discipline Priests are running out of mana.

Almost exactly what my thoughts have been since beta.

I started running these quick numbers with "let's see how good/bad haste really is", but at this point it doesn't look like haste is actually a good stat for Discipline. It actually looks like it's directly inferior to critical.

Any discussion questioning the validity of current Disc doctrine doesn't end well here. Don't bother. The only responses you'll get are snide, counter intuitive replies that don't answer the question or show the reasoning behind why prevailing opinion is what it is or some snarky comment about you being bad and making a personal attack lol.

Such as:

Yes, if you only PWR and then only Smite, haste is bad. Thankfully, this is not something any good player would ever actually do.

That's a reply that implies that haste benefits other spells Discs use but not Smite/PWR much and thus haste is a bad stat if those spells are all that's used. Yet all other spells in a Discs arsenal are either not affected by haste at all or benefit more from other stats than haste. Logically and mathematically it's a stupid statement to make yet that's the reply that's given, or something like it anytime haste is questioned.

Good luck trying to get out more than 3 casts of PWR before a burst without the first set of atonements running out.

If you checked the numbers and ran a few scenarios for yourself you'd see that haste really doesn't do much to allow for more casts to be fit into an atonement window.

The difference between stacking haste and not stacking haste amounts to being able to cast 1 extra smite or (usually not quite) 1 extra PWR and getting 1 or (at most) 2 extra SWP ticks in a 15 second atonement window. Everyone makes out like stacking haste is game changing for a Discs ability to spread atonements but it's really not.

Most of the healing done in an atonement window comes from a CD like MB/Penance or LW and those either aren't affected by haste at all or are just barely affected.

The mana cost that comes with more casts, especially PWR, are the prohibitive factor when burst healing in atonement windows or setting up more windows. Not cast speed.

It's really your responsibility at this point to search it yourself at this point. Every time someone is too lazy to look up prior discussions, but wants to have a finger in every pie, the people who have to defend it have to resurrect the debate and repeat the same arguments ad nauseam for the sake of the minority.

It's really not his responsibility to search for an answer because the answer doesn't exist. He can't find something that has never been posted. There is no mathematical or well reasoned argument as to why haste is better than any other secondary stat.

The only discussion surrounding it has either been based on laughably flawed logic like the notion that stacking haste is good and yet Discs should spend time not pressing spells at all in order to save mana or has been vaguely presented as good because it allows for more casting while ignoring the fact that alternative secondary stats have their benefits as well.

Even the notion that haste is amazing because it allows for more PWR spam before burst healing CD's is predicated on innervates but no one wants to say so. It's like everyone just forgets that spamming PWR before a 12-15 atonement burst healing window can cost 30% or more of your mana.

Now I suppose I wait for the responses to this post to be as woeful as they have been for VigilantRose's to which not a single mathematical or logical reply has been given.

You need to get this idea out of your head that we aren't stacking haste to cast every gcd. If you have 0 haste you would still be afking between bursts.

This is where the haste argument falls off the rails for me. Stacking a stat that doesn't even effect some spells and is only useful for the other spells some fraction of the time while also burning through more mana than alternatives is laughable to me.

[Totaltotemic]

If you're here to help people play Disc better, then why is it so hard to answer what must be one of the most basic questions about the spec?

I asked you a very simple question: what constitutes a 'good' rotation for Discipline. You've repeatedly mocked others for using 'bad' ones, yet you've never broken down a specific example of a 'good' rotation - and when I ask you repeatedly for an example, you desperately try to dodge answering at every turn. Why is that?

I'm not desperately dodging anything, just refusing to engage with someone that thinks that there is such a thing as a static healing rotation that persists across even different parts of a fight, let alone different fights in different raids with different players. The fact that you even think that I think there is a "rotation" (as you seem to have taken a non-GCD locked cast sequence and implied that it is a static rotation) shows that you're not ready to discuss Disc theory. Come back when you understand how healing works and I will be glad to engage with you.

[PosPosPos]

If you checked the numbers and ran a few scenarios for yourself you'd see that haste really doesn't do much to allow for more casts to be fit into an atonement window.

The difference between stacking haste and not stacking haste amounts to being able to cast 1 extra smite or (usually not quite) 1 extra PWR and getting 1 or (at most) 2 extra SWP ticks in a 15 second atonement window. Everyone makes out like stacking haste is game changing for a Discs ability to spread atonements but it's really not.

Most of the healing done in an atonement window comes from a CD like MB/Penance or LW and those either aren't affected by haste at all or are just barely affected.

Do you know that LW has a flight time *and* a cast time?

Now here is what you do: cast PWRx6 without stacking haste(15% or below), then try to land LW on the boss afterward without being in melee range and any of the Atonements falling off at least until LW is successfully cast and snapshots your available atonements. Extra brownie points for doing it on a fight like M Ursoc like me while also soaking a charge.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...58&end=9750059

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...ability=194384

[Totaltotemic]

Yet all other spells in a Discs arsenal are either not affected by haste at all or benefit more from other stats than haste.

Are you not aware that there are spells that are directly increased by Haste, or is your personal grudge so strong that you willingly ignore absolute facts?

Shadow Word: Pain is a spell that increases its HPCT, HPS, and HPM via Haste. Mindbender is also a spell that does this. Do you deny these as facts? If so, are you lying or just so terribly incapable of understanding the game called World of Warcraft that you can't understand such a simple concept? Tell me truthfully, @Rife are you a liar or just incompetent? Because this is probably the tenth or so time that you've asserted this blatantly false information and been corrected on it.

- - - Updated - - -

If you want a list of things to make sure you include so that you don't get laughed at when trying to determine stat values, here you go:

-SWP/PtW (approx 10-20% of healing depending on the fight)

-Mindbender/Shadowfiend (approx 5-15% of healing depending on the fight)

-PW:S cooldown efficiency vs doing something else

-Power of the Dark Side proc rate (1+haste RPPM) (affects ~3-5% of healing depending on the fight)

-Open GCDs actually being things that exist for all healers and not inherently worse than casting something

-Efficiency of Atonements being applied more quickly (see here)

-Damage patterns (healing when raid damage taken is high being inherently more valuable than the same amount of healing when raid damage taken is low)

-Mechanics causing movement (i.e. the theoretical world where you have 15 straight seconds to stand still and cast actually almost never exists)

Do I have a specific numerical analysis that includes all of these things? No, that's silly, because half of them can't actually be quantified. Can you make a numerical analysis that includes all of these things? No, you can't either, that's why things like healing simulators don't exist. We have to rely on reasoning, and if you leave out reasons when comparing against things like Crit and Versatility (which are just blanket increases to all numbers produced all of the time), haste appears worse than it really should, so make sure you include all of the reasons. Leaving some of them out is forgivable, but still wrong. Leaving all of them out or especially the incredibly obvious ones (i.e. writing off Disc as having "no dots or hots) is just plain lazy.



Infracted for not pandering to liars with self-admitted grudges.

[nietz]

From a subjective standpoint, Disc is just so so painful to play without a decent (~20%) amount of haste. You have so many abilities that you have to land at the right time during a burst window and haste makes doing so much more forgiving. Not to mention that it really helps SM spam in mythics.

[Pearl1717]

Most of the healing done in an atonement window comes from a CD like MB/Penance or LW and those either aren't affected by haste at all or are just barely affected.

And thats where I stopped reading.

[Madcap]

I don't care how brilliant a response may be, when it is delivered with personal attacks and insults and nasty, sarcastic, condescending tone, the response is not constructive period. You know how you can tell someone who really is smart? They don't make it personal. It's that simple. He or she can articulate a difference in opinion and advocate for their perspective without Feeling the need to belittle or demean.

Pos does not contribute to this forum to be helpful. It's very clear by the ultra-critical tone and arrogance, and by the defensiveness, humorlessness and vitriol contained in his DAILY interactions with other posters, that his participation is motivated by a massive need to feed his ego with the approbation of strangers in a public venue.

In other words, he's here because this is a place that makes him feel smart. He has a massive audience and easy targets to put down. And while many posters indulge and enable his toxic conduct because they're able to avoid becoming a target themselves and they feel they benefit from his insights, the moderators have no such excuse, and shame on them for their role in creating such a monster.

I posted that on March 5, 2015. It's incredible how little has changed. And I'm fact, it's even worse because Pos has a partner in crime in Totemic.

The hostility and arrogance from Pos and Totemic has truly reached a fevered pitch lately. As a regular visitor to this thread, wading through the increasing prevalence of viciousness, petty insults, pathetic insecurity, and repulsive attitudes that ooze from their posts' every sentence has transformed a once pleasant experience into a nearly insufferable one. And obviously there are other posters who feel the same way.

I urge anyone who recognizes how Pos and Totemic's abusive and disrespectful conduct is detracting from the experiences of others and is inconsistent with not only forum policy and rules but simple civility, to report their offensive posts to moderators.

To Pos & Totemic: your hostility to those who challenge your ideas or even simply express a different point of view, and your adherence to dogmatic views, are the hallmarks of charlatans, snake oil salesmen, and limited minds. True subject matter authorities act very differently. Remember - teaching, helping others, and simply interacting with other human beings, is not for everyone.

To the mod who will infract this post: if you did your job, there wouldn't be a post like this in the first place. They've been running roughshod over posters in this thread for weeks. Rather than censure me, you should be censuring Pos and Totemic.

[xskarma]

The personal attacks and off topic meta discussion about what constitutes valid questions or not stops right here.

This is a guide thread, people will come in here with bad notions, oft repeated questions and will often jump in and ask questions that are clearly answered in the first post. That does NOT give you license to make fun of them, be disrespectful to them or tell them to bugger off. You either do what the thread is for, which is help others, or you ignore them if you cannot stay civil about it.

Further derailing and bad behaviour in this thread will not be tolerated.

[Totaltotemic]

Typical mod response, only ever flying in from the report queue to deliver a self-righteous statement about civility.

So be it. None of your are worth my time then. This guide will no longer be hosted here, and you will receive no responses from me on this website about this spec. There is no point attempting to have discussion on a website where the rules are only ever used to protect the ignorant from themselves. You can find the full version of the guide at HowToPriest.com

[Deleted]

Firstly, it sounds like you might think disc isn't a very good healer, or isn't a 'full' healer. Lets just start by saying it is a full healer, and a good healer too, if played well.

Disc has the benefit of sharing main stats with shadow (Haste>crit), but is considerably harder to play than any other healing spec. It is generally more valuable than holy when played correctly, but if played poorly it is complete trash. If you've not healed much before, you will find disc challenging and probably not what you consider intuitive as a healer. That may be a good or bad thing depending on your attitude and what you enjoy.

Holy's Stat Priority is Mast>Crit, which only really competes for (cloth)loot with I think one of the warlock specs, so that's another consideration if you wanted to potentially mop up all that gear for your OS.

Another consideration is that there's not a lot of point to doubling up on either healing priest spec in a raid, but particularly disc, who's niche is to manage burst healing, so having two kinda means they'll be stepping on each others toes a lot. So if you're regular raiding group already has a healing priest, you may want to consider going the opposite spec to them.

Na, can't say that. For me Disc is a healer. Maybe a little different compared to other healers but still a healer. It's just that i've read to much shit about Holy being the better spec for healing. I will however go for Discipline over Holy. I really, really like when stuff is challening and like you said - Disc will be a challenge. Also main stat as you mentiond charing with Shadow is fantastic.


And i have a question. I've read some pages back about the dmg from Shadow Mend dot. If i attack a dummy and Shadow Mend myself, should i take damage here or am i just stupid and don't understand how it works?

[Saiyoran]

Typical mod response, only ever flying in from the report queue to deliver a self-righteous statement about civility.

So be it. None of your are worth my time then. This guide will no longer be hosted here, and you will receive no responses from me on this website about this spec. There is no point attempting to have discussion on a website where the rules are only ever used to protect the ignorant from themselves. You can find the full version of the guide at HowToPriest.com

LOL look out guys total can't handle our inferiority for one more second!

Infracted - Djriff

[longxia]

So be it. None of your are worth my time then.

What a pompous, conceited, autistic dick.

By the way Totem, your guide is shit. The best meta-playstyle for Disc is to seamlessly flow between spot-healing, burst-AOE via Atonement and doing damage. Responding with different tools to different situations.

Time will tell that you were never half as smart as you think you are, and not even 1% as respected as you think you deserve.

Infracted

[Darsithis]

Typical mod response, only ever flying in from the report queue to deliver a self-righteous statement about civility.

So be it. None of your are worth my time then. This guide will no longer be hosted here, and you will receive no responses from me on this website about this spec. There is no point attempting to have discussion on a website where the rules are only ever used to protect the ignorant from themselves. You can find the full version of the guide at HowToPriest.com

I'm sorry you feel that way.

As a result, this thread is closed.


If someone wishes to post a new Disc guide, they're welcome to. We'll sticky it once it is complete.