[Anime] Translators Editing Anime from its original meaning/intent

[prwraith]

Has anyone scene this over the past few weeks? It's escalating to an all out flame war on some reddits/twitter/youtube.

Apparently in the past translators have admitted to changing the source materially substantially from what was originally said. Often with a, i cringe typing this, *wokeness* vibe to the edited text?

While I generally don't care as it has a net zero effect on me, it is kind of odd that people were ok doing this. Even more odd that no editor overviewed what they were actually doing and stopped it.



https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoo...nlocalization/

example:

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This has always been a thing with anime translations with likely the most notable example being dragonbal having huge changes to make characters like Goku seem more heroic.

[Xilurm]

Pretty lame. However there's another issue. Channels that are made with the purpose of making people upset with words like woke and other stuff that serve to incite hate are going to make it hard for this issue to be taken seriously.

I imagine a lot of posts in this exact thread are going the likes of "what does woke even mean". Or something like that.

The only ones that can fix this is the creators of such anime and demand that localization is more faithful to their original work.

[arandomuser]

this has been debunked as sometimes direct translations are nonsensical such as using an idiom so translators will use collequal phrases to get the same meaning, obviously thats never covered i assume

[Ihavewaffles]

oh that, she spends all day on twitters attacking critics, even went after Asmongold

[prwraith]

this has been debunked as sometimes direct translations are nonsensical such as using an idiomso translators will use collequal phrases to get the same meaning, obviously thats never covered i assume

Changing phrases from the reading i've been doing over the past week is generally accepted as ok because some of it is, as you said, nonsensical.

People seem to be taking issue with translators changing the meaning entirely as in the screenshot above, that's a complete change and one is politically/societally charged and the other is just basic conversation.

- - - Updated - - -

Pretty lame. However there's another issue. Channels that are made with the purpose of making people upset with words like woke and other stuff that serve to incite hate are going to make it hard for this issue to be taken seriously.

I imagine a lot of posts in this exact thread are going the likes of "what does woke even mean". Or something like that.

The only ones that can fix this is the creators of such anime and demand that localization is more faithful to their original work.

I hate the word as well, but I'm not versed enough to know the non cringe one. I'd be happy with just *Agenda Pushing translator* as opposed to woke translator.

- - - Updated - - -

oh that, she spends all day on twitters attacking critics, even went after Asmongold

I was reading that, and blocked anyone who disagreed with her over the past few days. I've seen a lot of the translators who agree with her are also doing mass blockings so they can maintain an echo chamber

[Xilurm]

I hate the word as well, but I'm not versed enough to know the non cringe one. I'd be happy with just *Agenda Pushing translator* as

Same. But it's like the word "SJW" which people stopped using in favour of "woke". But anyway people see words like that and refuse to look into what the actual problem is because apparently you need Shakespearean vocabulary in order to get your point across these days (especially on GEN-OT). Arguing on the internet is so dumb nowadays.

But anyway as to the matter at hand, the fact that this is trending is good for people who dislike all these changes that the localizers are doing, and exposure is the first part to getting a problem fixed.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

But anyway as to the matter at hand, the fact that this is trending is good for people who dislike all these changes that the localizers are doing, and exposure is the first part to getting a problem fixed.

Your living in a fantasy if you think people complaining on Twitter is going to change any thing.

People have known since this 80’s that this has been going on, it isn’t news to any one but those looking for a new thing to be outraged about.

[prwraith]

Your living in a fantasy if you think people complaining on Twitter is going to change any thing.

People have known since this 80’s that this has been going on, it isn’t news to any one but those looking for a new thing to be outraged about.

I mean perhaps. I've watched anime for most of my life, i was born in the 90's. I had no idea this was a thing until recently which is why it's so fascinating to me. I don't understand how it was allowed to propagate as far as it did

[Xilurm]

Your living in a fantasy if you think people complaining on Twitter is going to change any thing.

People have known since this 80’s that this has been going on, it isn’t news to any one but those looking for a new thing to be outraged about.

There is an agenda behind this though, it's not the same making Goku a bit more heroic. You don't just use the words "patriarchy" like that without a reason.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I mean perhaps. I've watched anime for most of my life, i was born in the 90's. I had no idea this was a thing until recently which is why it's so fascinating to me. I don't understand how it was allowed to propagate as far as it did

Sailormoon, dragon ball, Pokémon, one piece, card capture, ect. it wasn’t allowed to propagate far it started with the beginnings of dubbed anime and has likely touched all of the biggest titles.

It isn’t some invading thing it’s been here from the start.

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

I mean perhaps. I've watched anime for most of my life, i was born in the 90's. I had no idea this was a thing until recently which is why it's so fascinating to me. I don't understand how it was allowed to propagate as far as it did

1) because there isn't always a good translation from one language to another
2) because they want to try and make the mouth movements correspond to what is being said
3) because they want to bring the show to a different audience

etc

[Lorgar Aurelian]

There is an agenda behind this though, it's not the same making Goku a bit more heroic. You don't just use the words "patriarchy" like that without a reason.

There might be an agenda for that one show I wouldn’t know but even if there was that isn’t any thing new, see Sailormoon turning lesbian lovers into cousins decades ago.

Not a single part of this is new.

[Raisei]

I mean I would not be surprised at all. America has always butchered anime to make it more palatable to their own tastes/culture.

Take for example literally every anime that 4Kids got their grubby hands on. Calling what they did Censorship is putting it mildly.

- Art was defaced, edited. "redrawn" (with MS Paint)
- Names were changed because americans are apparently too stupid to use names that are not used in their high schools
- Characters were literally made to look less human because oh dear we cannot have women with breasts
- Violence was toned down so much that scenes made no sense anymore

It was disgusting and Japanese creators rightly sued them over their practices.

That america's newest trend of virtue signaling that has been ruining some of the greatest franchises of movie history already is now affecting the anime market too is not surprising. It was only a matter of time. Even if this specific instance is not real, it is happening. If you have seen any of Netflix's "adaptations" of anime then you know there is nowhere to hide from the Hollywood influence.

One Piece has solely dodged this fate, because the japanese author demanded to keep creative control and thus could prevent those fools from ruining it. Otherwise you can bet that Nami would have suddenly become the Captain of the Straw Hats and beaten Arlong in a solo duel to death with her stick.

[Biomega]

this has been debunked as sometimes direct translations are nonsensical such as using an idiomso translators will use collequal phrases to get the same meaning, obviously thats never covered i assume

That's not what people are talking about. Obviously translations are never simple 1:1 word substitutions, and you have to account for idioms, cultural knowledge, and so on.

But this isn't the issue they're talking about in this complaint. They're talking about active and deliberate shifts in the dialogue, away not only from original intent but often in ways that contradict, substantially change, or outright invert the original intent, background, and meaning.

And it doesn't help that most of this is done by so-called "script adaptors", not translators - people who will openly admit that they do not speak the original language at all, and often think that's a good thing.

Their justification seems to be the idea that their message is, ostensibly, a positive one. I.e. that because they're inserting benevolent dialogue with constructive goals (such as equity, diversity, etc.) it doesn't matter that they're distorting the original's intent, background, or continuity; and, conversely, they are prone to claiming that people who complain about that distortion are either only doing so because they in actuality object to the message, or because they want to deny people an avenue to get their message heard.

Which is not only nonsensical but also counterproductive, especially in the way that some of the showcase examples have operated. In what has arguably become the most-cited example, the writer/voice actor in question responds to an audience question about the inaccuracy of the translation at a convention panel with "Well I'm sorry you're not getting laid, but..." and rhetoric of that nature. The entire discourse has been inundated with vitriol from both sides, and is largely an escalating flame war at this point.

But the problem at the core of the issue is an important one. I won't bore people with academic theories of translation à la Venuti's domestication/foreignization, but suffice it to say that while yes, translation probably needs changes for various reasons and will never be a simple correspondence of wordings and phrasings, there is a significant difference between doing a good, adaptive translation so audiences in a different language and cultural context can properly appreciate and understand the original, and between inserting extraneous material that was neither present nor alluded to in the original simply for the reason that you think it's a beneficent message on its own merit.

That goes beyond translation or adaptation. This is, quite frankly, appropriation. You're piggybacking off of someone else's intellectual material in order to insert your own. Whether or not that's legal aside, that is not something that's either simple or unproblematic simply on the face of it. And it never was, as people have been quick to point to historic precedent. In fact the specific passage/show that this controversy has largely grown around is in itself several years old now.

To me, this speaks to a larger problem in our general understanding of proper discourse: that people confuse the mode of discourse with the content of discourse. In all directions. The content of a discourse does not become defensible simply because it's carried out in a proper mode; but at the same time, supporting the content of a discourse does not mean condoning improper modes. In other words, it's no more okay to practice e.g. Holocaust denial if only you do it in a properly structured debate than it is okay to yell insults at people and scream at them just because you're screaming about a positive message of e.g. equity and diversity. Neither of those is okay, and conflating content and form consistently only leads to people normalizing outrageous discursive behavior. That's a problem for so, so many reasons.

[Endus]

Beyond the fact that no one complaining about "wokeness" has anything to say worth hearing, anime dubs and subs have always grossly distorted things at times. Look at how they bent over backwards with Sailor Moon to remove anything remotely gay, when it was dubbed for NA. Or how Macross basically became a nearly completely different show called Robotech.

These people aren't complaining in good faith.

[Big Thanks]

This isnt going to end well....

[Evil Midnight Bomber]

That's the funny thing.

If they were to release Sailor Moon today with a completely accurate to the original dub...these same people would be frothing about how the show is trying to turn their kids gay and/or genderqueer.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

That's the funny thing.

If they were to release Sailor Moon today with a completely accurate to the original dub...these same people would be frothing about how the show is trying to turn their kids gay and/or genderqueer.

Not only that they would be crying to the high heavens that they changed the show to be woke and it was never like that originally due to the original dub.

[Endus]

But the problem at the core of the issue is an important one. I won't bore people with academic theories of translation à la Venuti's domestication/foreignization, but suffice it to say that while yes, translation probably needs changes for various reasons and will never be a simple correspondence of wordings and phrasings, there is a significant difference between doing a good, adaptive translation so audiences in a different language and cultural context can properly appreciate and understand the original, and between inserting extraneous material that was neither present nor alluded to in the original simply for the reason that you think it's a beneficent message on its own merit.

That's fair. I'd argue the reverse, however, is defensible; if the original has overtly objectionable content and you're doing an adaptation, it's perfectly legitimate to leave that content behind.

A great example here (to remove the cultural differences to make my point more clear) would be adaptations of H.P. Lovecraft. The man was violently racist (don't look up the name of his cat). It's bled through a lot of his stories, in gross ways, and none of which actually contribute to the narrative. You can have a guy be a seedy disreputable type without harping on about how Arab he is, for instance.

Cutting that garbage out in an adaptation is fine, IMO. And before anyone kvetches; nobody's talking about abolishing the original editions. If you want your racist versions, they're still out there.