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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    havent seen any meaningful beta raid testing logs that suggest that MM will be superior. Sorry.
    Meaningful

    Raid Testing Logs

    Pick one.

  2. #22
    High Overlord Kazezoku's Avatar
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    And so we wait...

  3. #23
    I wouldn't say there's anything wrong mechanically with BM and it could be competitive with MM.

    BUT.

    Sidewinders + Marked shot is so good and unique that in the vast majority of fights it'll push MM far ahead unless it's single target gets nerfed hard or if that combo does. MM can hit multiple targets spread out at no loss of single/primary target damage. And that just covers so many fights.

    Legion raiding is at its base form: lots of high priority, medium hp, spread out adds. Especially Emerald Nightmare. Il'gynoth is similar to blast furnace/Gorefiend. Dragons of Nightmare I believe have adds spawning in the main arena (didn't test that one). Cenarius is like Horridon. Xavius has those adds that try to channel on him and spawn spread out as well as the one large add in P1. Plus those tentacles in P3 like Cho'gall.

    Elerethe is the only one where BM might be able to overtake it if their single target was equal but it's not like MM is bad and that's just 1 fight.

    I wouldn't even say BM is bad at target switching, but I just don't know how you can give up MM's burst spread aoe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Unmerciful Conker View Post
    What?! They said soon? Well you dont hear that everyday, I dont know about you guys but that has put my mind at total rest.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    havent seen any meaningful beta raid testing logs that suggest that MM will be superior. Sorry.
    On a 1 minute wipe, BM will pull ahead because its burst is better than MM in the opener. Gone are the days of MM's Careful Aim opening burst (though it's still decent). In any meaningful fight length, MM will almost always be better.

    That's what Azor means when he suggests there's no meaningful beta raid test logs - because none of the testing is meaningful to real raid situations.

  5. #25
    The Patient Caketime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    On a 1 minute wipe, BM will pull ahead because its burst is better than MM in the opener. Gone are the days of MM's Careful Aim opening burst (though it's still decent). In any meaningful fight length, MM will almost always be better.

    That's what Azor means when he suggests there's no meaningful beta raid test logs - because none of the testing is meaningful to real raid situations.
    Unless the raid testing logs show kills? Boss HP shouldn't be lowered for the sake of testing so it should portray a legit kill. Having said that the number of kills needed for any decent statistics is far too low, and it's impossible to know if any of the listed player are even playing the class to it's full potential.

    If the performance of a class is within the margin of human error compared to a simulation for the same type of fight it's fair to say that it's reliable, no?

    edit: Do the raidtesters have 4-set?

  6. #26
    Kills, not kills. Long kills, short kills, wipes, long wipes, short wipes, none of them are meaningful, so no, that's not what I mean.

    When we actually enter raids, our artifact will be 25-30 iLvls ahead of the general iLvl of the rest of our gear-ish. This inflates Marksmanship hugely.

    In raid testing, all gear is indiscriminately set to X iLvl, including the artifact. Therefore, raid testing and drawing conclusions on MM vs BM is meaningless, because it is not even close to being true-to-life. On top of this, the public logs of MM players are of a really low quality. Of course this could be twisted into an anti-MM argument too, because a spec might be good but if no one knows how to play it, then maybe yeah, it's shit for those people.

  7. #27
    still a work in progress - but sims for BM & MM at 840 and 878 (bow 906), both iLvL's on Zakuun and on Iskar - with food and flask (no legionary gear)



    Bottom line of this is:

    (1) Single target the two specs are both really pretty close and also scale pretty similarly - MM slightly higher scaling on multi-target. BM does have somewhat better movement freedom.
    (2) BM 20% ahead on Iskar type fight - and the talent set-up is also less likely to pull mobs - both why it is preferred in M+

    Some sim details.



    Last edited by silverstarzs; 2016-08-12 at 03:19 PM.

  8. #28
    This is really quite useless. The fact that the DPS number is so much lower than that of SimCraft (BM does tens of thousands more DPS with 30 less iLvl than in your sim) is quite telling by itself. Furthermore, we are honestly well past the simulation stage of figuring out what spec is better, there are much more "fine" variables, of which player skill will be one of them.

    Your interpretation is well off. The fight lengths you are using are kind of silly, and Iskar is a HFC fight, it has nothing to do with Legion. In fact, I can't think of a similar fight in Legion off the top of my head. The base profiles for SimCraft are much better than the ones for AMR. I believe the APL in AMR is quite good, but it's the rest of the stuff that matters. For example, 895 iLvl sims are pretty silly. If they are using 4pc, that's even more silly. Finally, the relationship between gear iLvl and weapon iLvl matters.

    In short, and I say this with all the respect I can find in my shallow heart, anyone would be silly to draw conclusions from the sims above.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    Meaningful

    Raid Testing Logs

    Pick one.
    Why do you ALWAYS have to be a giant dickhead to everyone?
    Can't you for once be a normal human being?

  10. #30
    I'm working on it, give me a chance.

    I don't think that post was too bad, anyway, because it's the gist of my point in very short terms. I don't think anyone's feelings were hurt so I think you might be overreacting a bit.

    Let's stay on topic.

  11. #31
    The Patient Caketime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    I'm working on it, give me a chance.

    I don't think that post was too bad, anyway, because it's the gist of my point in very short terms. I don't think anyone's feelings were hurt so I think you might be overreacting a bit.

    Let's stay on topic.
    All current information regarding kills, logs and sims are not to be taken as fact since we will have a higher leveled artifact when we enter the raids. And this higher iLvL artifact will benefit MM more than BM. Wouldn't you be able to replicate this with sim settings putting artis at higher iLvLs, right now? I'm by no means a theorycrafter or mathematician so go easy on me when trying to explain.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Azortharion View Post
    .....we are honestly well past the simulation stage of figuring out what spec is better....
    Do tell.
    You have said that no beta logs are worth anything (including your own). and you have shit over all the sims anyone has attempted.
    So are we suppose to just believe what you feel is the best spec - lol?
    you make a statement like that - Give us some proof - to the same standard as you demand of everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Caketime View Post
    And this higher iLvL artifact will benefit MM more than BM. Wouldn't you be able to replicate this with sim I'm by no means a theorycrafter or mathematician so go easy on me when trying to explain.
    The sims I posted above have higher iLvL artifact than gear.
    Last edited by silverstarzs; 2016-08-12 at 04:15 PM.

  13. #33
    Well the fact is that you cannot really sim the power of a trait like Bullseye and exploiting it to your benefit. What we can see is that Beast Mastery is marginally ahead on single-target in sims. With that knowledge, we can stack on the knowledge that know will make a difference, but can't necessarily be simmed.

    1) Marksmanship can do full single-target and AoE at basically the same time.
    2) Marksmanship is incredibly strong in execute. Beast Mastery is strong in the opener. It is almost never phase 1 that wins a fight, in fact it is usually shortening the latter stages that wins you fights.
    3) Marksmanship's Bullseye trait can be used to much more benefit than in any sim, by Barraging low-health targets to build stacks before a Trueshot, for example.
    4) Trueshot is a mediocre cooldown on single target, but incredibly strong on multi-target. Correct usage can allow for massive damage at chokepoints in an encounter. The strength of the first point (full AoE+single) becomes apparent in these situations where you can tear apart almost everyone on AoE while doing the same on a single target.
    5) Beast Mastery relies on its AoE to be packed up. This is great for Mythic+, but not always so great in raids. See Il'gynoth for example, where a well-positioned Marksmanship Hunter can deal full damage to the high-priority Nightmare Horror, while dealing extremely high damage to Ichors, tentacles, everything. Beast Mastery can only do one of these things at once. You'd rather have 90% damage on a main target and 50% damage on 5 more spread-out targets, than 100% damage on a single target.

    These are simple facts that anyone well-versed in MM who has raidtested with the spec can attest to. "But you said raid testing doesn't matter?", raid testing doesn't matter when comparing the damage done by the two specs, but it is mechanics that win games. Doesn't mean you can have a good spec that doesn't do a lot of damage, of course, but as we've long ago established, the damage difference between the two specs in a vacuum is fairly minute.

    Beast Mastery's strengths lie in clustered AoE, and pure single target. This (on top of the misleading raid testing logs) makes it look like a better spec in comparison to Marksmanship than it probably is. Raid testing is also predominantly normal or Heroic mode, with much shorter fights which will artifically inflate Beast Mastery due to its stronger opener damage. As mentioned before, however, it is not phase 1 DPS that wins fights.

    Finally, keep in mind that when doing AoE sims as Beast Mastery, Stampede hits all available targets. In a real life situation, you may not have that luxury (again, especially if targets aren't perfectly clustered and also immobile).

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Caketime View Post
    All current information regarding kills, logs and sims are not to be taken as fact since we will have a higher leveled artifact when we enter the raids. And this higher iLvL artifact will benefit MM more than BM. Wouldn't you be able to replicate this with sim settings putting artis at higher iLvLs, right now? I'm by no means a theorycrafter or mathematician so go easy on me when trying to explain.
    Yes, sims can account for the fact that artifacts will be a higher iLvl than the rest of your gear. This is what the current MM gear profile for my sims looks like:



    In other words, 865 iLvl gear with the exception of trinkets. That iLvl is derived from what myself and others in the Hunter Discord/top guilds have deemed to be a realistic iLvl when entering Mythic Emerald Nightmare, providing you do your Mythic dungeons optimally and so on. Not all pieces will be 865. Some will be lower, some will be higher, but that iLvl as a general statement seems realistic. Trinkets are a lower iLvl than the rest since they are separate from the rest of the gearset in some respects as they introduce new mechanics to the playstyle in many respects, and you are not very likely to get 865 trinkets. Going lower for those seemed like the safer option. The 894 artifact level is basically the artifact iLvl with 3x865 relics, which give 48 item levels each.

    They will not take into account the majority of the points I listed in the post above, however.

  14. #34
    All sims we have been doing have the artifacts having at least a 30 level advantage for all specs.

  15. #35
    Ok here's the deal there is no straight answer to this. so I'll hit the high and low points of each spec and then tell you my conclusion Based on my testing.
    DISCLAIMER: this is not here to start a flame war because my testing and opinions may not align with X's or Y's. If you want to nerd rage or insult please take it to your own tread.

    Marksman

    Pro's
    This spec boast the highest POSSIBLE damage early in raiding.
    it has very high burst.
    AoE is strong.
    best target switching

    Con's
    MM's major con is RNG, it still depends on procs for it's damage and this makes its output unstable, leading to pockets of nothing that kill your damage output.
    Focus generation to cost ratio. this issue is not near as bad as in the past but the gen to cost ratio is tight so it adds an additional skill cap to maximize the spec.

    Beast Mastery

    Pro's
    best sustained damage.
    favorable focus gen to cost ratio.
    respectable burst.

    Con's
    Weak AoE by comparison.
    target changing over distance can be detrimental to damage output.

    Survival

    Pro's
    large toolkit.
    lots of customization with talents.
    predictable and controllable phases of high and very high burst
    Procs enhance the spec but do not harm its damage the way they do for MM.

    Con's
    Target swaping is not fast as MM but is better than BM.
    easy to become focus starved if not practiced with the spec.
    highest skill cap among the 3 specs

    Conclusion

    Anyone who Enjoyed MM in WoD will still find it fun if not a bit aggravating at time. its ability to output nuclear levels of burst make it a welcome spec on a team that lacks burst damage dealers, and given the RNG gods favor you its sustained damage is very high. this spec is viable and welcome on any team but be aware of its limits.

    Beast Mastery has changed a lot and when using stable master talent build fills the fantasy of a master of beast well. Its damage tends to be lowest over all but more than makes up for this in that its the most stable and sustainable. these facts make BM a great choice for a team that needs a source a stable damage on a target.

    Survival is all new and its damage is predictably chaotic. it's damage tends to be above BM but below the possible damage of MM, that said Survival's predictable peaks make its damage over all match or sometimes even beat MM. additionally Survivals peaks of highest damage also happen to be good at deaming the highest burst aoe of the 3 spec's. While Survival does take more skill than MM or BM to master the reward is a spec that can run with the big boys in both single target and AOE making it a very flexible member of any raid team.

    all said and done all 3 specs are viable and " best " in their own way. Marksman is best at target switching and can line up CD's and procs to drop nukes on targets. Beast Mastery has the best sustained damage is easy rotation making it a welcome spec for any boss and excel on bosses where it can tunnel and leave the target switching to others. Survival brings so much to the table that it can fill the rolls of MM and BM depending on whats needed.

    under Ideal situations the DPS rankings would look like this, Marksman, Survival =/> Beast Mastery. but in reality the choice will come down to What spec to you like and what role does your Raid need filled? SO which spec is best in practice? well it just depends. it's also worth noting Fights in legion tend to be less DPS dependent and a lot more mechanics based.
    Last edited by krunksmash; 2016-08-12 at 08:24 PM.

  16. #36
    Given the facts that Cobra shot is less then 15% overall damage in ST figth and that Multishot proc 200% RAP AoE due Surge of Stormgods how much DPS BM really lose on primary target when it AoE? If adds are stacked then it's, like what, 5-7%? Pretty good I'd say.
    Last edited by Ifritlol; 2016-08-12 at 06:36 PM.

  17. #37
    personally i believe they will nerf the MM mechanic to cleave while remaining the highest ST possible. Blizz has shown again and again that they want to differentiate from ST to cleave damage. I am almost positive that will get nerfed in some way.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiav View Post
    personally i believe they will nerf the MM mechanic to cleave while remaining the highest ST possible. Blizz has shown again and again that they want to differentiate from ST to cleave damage. I am almost positive that will get nerfed in some way.
    Not really you have to talent to really get cleave out of MM.
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  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by krunksmash View Post
    Not really you have to talent to really get cleave out of MM.
    no becouse the cleave and st talents are the same for mm. you are not chosing to do better cleave at the cost of st like other specs.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by eathdemon View Post
    no becouse the cleave and st talents are the same for mm. you are not chosing to do better cleave at the cost of st like other specs.
    depends on what build you use. crows+headshot can be just as viable as Barrage+Sidewinders. so yes cleave IS tied to your talent build for MM.

    Clarification Edit:

    In this I'm talking about Viability or minimum dps to beat a given encounter, not whats Optimal or what gives the highest return on DPS. when talking whats Optimal Bar+SW wins every time ATM.
    Last edited by krunksmash; 2016-08-12 at 11:04 PM.
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