What exactly is our strength as DPS?

[Galathir]

Corrupted Ashbringer was never a Legendary, so your argument is flawed. Your comparing Apples to Oranges.

It is not: I mentioned Corrupted Ashbringer and he pointed out the difference.

[Dracovian]

As a whole, you can't take the current inaccurate sims as fact....Outlaw is high...but if you go through the sim, it's because roll the bones is proc'ing all six buffs 100% of the time....In the days I played leveling my rogue, as outlaw, via invasions...I got all six less than five times. So, just from that alone...I wouldn't look at these sims and think they're a good source.

Of course sims aren't perfect but they give you an overall idea of where specs stand and Frost being 100k behind some specs does not bode well. Yeah 100k might be due to some errors but whatever the real number is sure will surpass the fabled 5%. What some people don't understand is that it's not that we want Frost to be broken/OP. Frost's only contribution to a raid is its DPS and 1 grip that's it so why would you currently pick Frost for a raid when it's not even among the best specs at its main contribution? Blizzard stated DKs should pull amazing numbers when they can reach their target and there's no place better to showcase this than Patchwerk and even there they are getting mauled by everyone. I know you know this Rune I am speaking for those wishful thinkers in this thread with their anecdotal dream scenarios that make Frost 1% behind Unholy when in reality it's not even close to that. Frost outputs some of the lowest numbers that is the only upside.

[Gemini Soul]

It is not: I mentioned Corrupted Ashbringer and he pointed out the difference.

His argument is flawed

Which is a slap in the face to everyone that got the Legendary but can't transmog it because is well Legendary.While Paladins get the corrupted Ashbringer,those that already have the sword from Vanilla/Tbc still can transmog it.

Those that got the blade when was current or when farming can't have the blade unless they are a outlaw rogue

He saying its BS that Pallys who got CA early on can mog to it but Rogues can only get TF if they are outlaw. His Argument is flawed because both weapons are not the same quality so therefore its meaningless.

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Of course sims aren't perfect but they give you an overall idea of where specs stand and Frost being 100k behind some specs does not bode well. Yeah 100k might be due to some errors but whatever the real number is sure will surpass the fabled 5%. What some people don't understand is that it's not that we want Frost to be broken/OP. Frost's only contribution to a raid is its DPS and 1 grip that's it so why would you currently pick Frost for a raid when it's not even among the best specs at its main contribution? Blizzard stated DKs should pull amazing numbers when they can reach their target and there's no place better to showcase this than Patchwerk and even there they are getting mauled by everyone. I know you know this Rune I am speaking for those wishful thinkers in this thread with their anecdotal dream scenarios that make Frost 1% behind Unholy when in reality it's not even close to that. Frost outputs some of the lowest numbers that is the only upside.

On top of that, even with out DPS Unholy has an over all better package. Which is why IMO, they should buff Frost to be ~5% above Unholy but that wont happen not for a while at least.

[Coldvibes]

My experience with UH and Frost in Mythic+ pretty much boils down to this:

I'll beat or tie the UH DK on big pulls every 5 minutes (I wonder why) and pulls with 3+ mobs that last an extended amount of time. This is in like, Mythic+7-8. Unless I get sustained (lol) amounts of KM procs I am never going to beat an unholy DK inside his CS/SS+DnD. Single target isn't even a contest, Bursting Sores and Leg. Bracers will blow me out and if they use Leg. Shoulders I might as well just AFK.

Possibly the only reason you ever take Frost over UH in M+ is for Winter is Coming assuming no one fucks up DRs and SF for really nasty pulls once every five minutes. Outside of that an unholy DK is going to be better every time.

[Casterbridge]

On top of that, even with out DPS Unholy has an over all better package. Which is why IMO, they should buff Frost to be ~5% above Unholy but that wont happen not for a while at least.

Outside of a number tuning game DPS wise, both in terms of timers and actual damage, what overall about Unholy's toolkit makes it so much superior to Frost that Frost should be guaranteed above Unholy?

Honestly curious, I really have not messed with Frost for a good long time.

[Gemini Soul]

Outside of a number tuning game DPS wise, both in terms of timers and actual damage, what overall about Unholy's toolkit makes it so much superior to Frost that Frost should be guaranteed above Unholy?

Honestly curious, I really have not messed with Frost for a good long time.

Unholy has better everything, utility, dmg output options spread AoE and clumped AoE frost only has clumped AoE, better mobility with talent, better survivability w/ artifact.

[Raikh]

Frost has no proper ranged filler in case you're not in range and way less passive damage than unholy. It has less utility (1 dg, 1 delayed 4 sec stun (talent)) while unholy has the ability to talent a second DG, a ST stun, AoE slow for kiting, can talent a strong def cd which might allow mechanic cheesing in trade for dps and can invest in high ranged damage and has decent ranged damage by default. Additionally unholy can also reduce the cd and increase the speed of WW which makes it a tad more mobile on top.
I would also claim that its tlent tree allows better adjustment for different dps situations shifting focus more to ST, AoE, sustained damage or burst which frost doesn't seem to have to that degree.

The situation adjusment could easily change though with proper tuning, utility not so much.

[NotInTheFace0]

Your comparing Apples to Oranges.

More like oranges to grapes

[Gemini Soul]

Frost has no proper ranged filler in case you're not in range and way less passive damage than unholy. It has less utility (1 dg, 1 delayed 4 sec stun (talent)) while unholy has the ability to talent a second DG, a ST stun, AoE slow for kiting, can talent a strong def cd which might allow mechanic cheesing in trade for dps and can invest in high ranged damage and has decent ranged damage by default. Additionally unholy can also reduce the cd and increase the speed of WW which makes it a tad more mobile on top.
I would also claim that its tlent tree allows better adjustment for different dps situations shifting focus more to ST, AoE, sustained damage or burst which frost doesn't seem to have to that degree.

The situation adjustment could easily change though with proper tuning, utility not so much.

It shows how much time/development they spent on unholy, i wouldn't be surprised if its because frost gets "Frostmourne" that they got the short end of the stick. Like each spec had $100 spent on it frost paid $75 for their artifact leaving $25 for other stuff while Unholy paid $25 for Apoc and had $75 for other stuff.

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More like oranges to grapes

lol nice!

/10char

[Raikh]

It shows how much time/development they spent on unholy, i wouldn't be surprised if its because frost gets "Frostmourne" that they got the short end of the stick. Like each spec had $100 spent on it frost paid $75 for their artifact leaving $25 for other stuff while Unholy paid $25 for Apoc and had $75 for other stuff.

True but I honestly still feel like that the cool kids (DHs, rogues, mages and maybe a few others) got 150 bucks pocket money from the get go of which they could spent 50 on something that isn't the most basic kit.

[Krazzorx]

Unholy has better everything, utility, dmg output options spread AoE and clumped AoE frost only has clumped AoE, better mobility with talent, better survivability w/ artifact.

Unless you're my guild and running nearly no dps frost relics. (This is actually probably quite common) In which case IF their dps was close with unholy there is something to be said for being a gear soak.

[Raikh]

Unless you're my guild and running nearly no dps frost relics. (This is actually probably quite common) In which case IF their dps was close with unholy there is something to be said for being a gear soak.

Theoretically, if you have a notable amount of unusable gear you could swap to personal loot outside of tier funneling, especially so if you're stacking/having a lot of the same classes or of one armor type.

[ScreddyLoix]

I would say unholy is in a pretty good spot right now, but I am almost sure they'll nerf Epidemic into the ground into the near future, which will ruin their burst aoe. As for frost, to me that spec died when Blizzard decreed it should be dw only.

[Khain]

I would say unholy is in a pretty good spot right now, but I am almost sure they'll nerf Epidemic into the ground into the near future, which will ruin their burst aoe. As for frost, to me that spec died when Blizzard decreed it should be dw only.

They just nerfed the best DK lengedaries

[Gemini Soul]

They just nerfed the best DK lengedaries

Source?

Details?

[Khain]

Source?

Details?

Go on live and see for yourself

The pet shoulder is now 30% it was 50%

[Khrux]

Blue Post - http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/t...02?page=12#223

No list of changes, just a "check it for yourself"

[Raiju]

I don't think it's particularly realistic to expect most guilds to fill all of their melee slots with rogues.

havoc can slot in too just fine

[Piz813]

Source?

Details?

confirmed..... just checked Beta... wow what scum bags

Shoulders are 30% and Frost bracers are 15% in stead of 20.... UH bracers seem un changed in flavor text. still 1-5 wounds